Thread: New Smokebomb

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  1. #81
    I don't see how cloak glyph is a "need." Anything you really need to reduce can be feinted which halves the effectiveness of the glyph if you try to use both anyway. What are you blinding anyway? The only thing I can think of to blind you would hit away from the raid as soon as they are up. If some one hits or dots it afterward you can't reapply it.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    You need sprint, feint, clos, vendetta/ar and even blind in the current raid tier.
    i count 2 1combat 1 assassination the others are situational i never seen myself needing CoS nor Sprint Ö_ö why would you need blind ? elaborate plz cuz those glyphs you meintions are all situatinals you dont realy need them
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Devo Aura, Banner, Tranquility, Healing Tide Totem, Vampiric Embrace, and probably many others are as good or better than smoke bomb's 20% damage reduction in an 7 yard range.
    It's not 7 yds range, it's 8 yds radius.
    How big is 8 yds radius? Press Distract and see how wide is inner circle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I don't see how cloak glyph is a "need."
    Must have for Vizier HC. Combined with elusivness it's perfect "oh shit" button.
    Some people taking cheat death for Vizier HC tho.
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    i never seen myself needing CoS nor Sprint Ö_ö why would you need blind ? elaborate plz cuz those glyphs you meintions are all situatinals you dont realy need them
    Sprint is awesome for Empress HC and Protectors HC, CoS - for Vizier HC. Blind may be more useful in 10 man raids, only bossfight i ever use blind (unglyphed) in 25 this tier - Lei Shi HC.
    Last edited by Mazius; 2013-01-20 at 01:32 AM.

  4. #84
    im talking about the glyphs not the abilitys
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
    Where is the warlock raid cooldown. Where is the hunter raid cooldown. Where is the mage raid cooldown. Seriously.
    Not everyone needs raid cooldowns, but raid utility. Warlocks have healthstones. Mages bring huge dps from range, take very little damage, and has spellsteal and reliable CC. Hunters only really have raid utility in 10 mans, where getting all raid buffs is more difficult, but are able to dps on the move 100% while still being at range, and have the best AoE in the game.

    Dk Amz was mentioned earlier, its really really situational, also requires stacking only absorbs around 170k damage total (not per person).
    This is wrong. AMZ mechanics are as follows: 1) Absorb 75% of whatever damage occurs. 2) After the cap is broken, AMZ breaks.
    This mechanic allows AMZ to soak up 75% of any big AoE tick. I.e., if the raid was to take a single 300k AoE, AMZ would reduce the damage to 75k for every person under AMZ.

    Druid tranq with heart of the wild is one of the best cooldowns out there, but heart of the wild is 8 min cd and also is a dps loss compared to the other options.
    Even without HotW a druid tranq does a lot of healing.

    Vampiric embrace is the weakest of all of passive heal cooldowns and only is competitive under execute or +dmg buff fights.
    Hell no VE isn't weak. Its not an Oh Shit type of cooldown, but something to help during sustained damage (Feng fire, Garalon pharamones). An Spriest doing 80k dps will put out 600k healing over the duration.

    Still, you are being ridiculously ungrateful. I do not think you need or deserve this new ability.
    Well, rogues lack any sort of raid utility, are the only class stuck as melee dps for every spec, and share gear with the most classes. I think that should warrant bringing some unique and powerful raid utility. Right now we're just a melee dps that brings nothing of use to a raid.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    im talking about the glyphs not the abilitys
    Then read it again - i meant glyphs.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    Very nice, but still needs halfed CD+glyph removed, or back on prep+glyph removed.
    the cd will not be lowered I suspect, although I'd say a 60 sec reduction wouldnt be too op myself. as it stands, if i didnt have smoke, I'd be useless to my rbg team

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    im talking about the glyphs not the abilitys
    The above list is for glyphs; glyphless CoS is borderline useless on Vizier because all of the base abilities (not counting MC'd players) are physical damage. If you've got people outside bubbles for F&V, you want every damage reduction you can - anything past feint won't matter on farm, but on a first kill or when something goes wrong, an extra CD goes a long way to "not dying" when you enter F&V without full health... or if you catch yourself staring at a bubble on the echo of attenuation, or if your tank will die from exhale, yatta yatta.

    I haven't done H Empress/Protectors to say why an extra 30% movement speed on sprint would be key, but I do know that an extra 30% is an extra 30%. If you're going to sprint, sprinting faster is good.

    Blind glyph can pull you out of sticky situations on H Mel'jarak if an AoE dot has landed on reinforcements or something got "loose" because of an amber trap.

    That said, I wouldn't object to a glyph extending smoke bomb's defensive radius at cost of the LoS targeting. Having to pick and choose is the hallmark of good glyphs, no? Not that that happens all that often.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-19 at 09:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Hell no VE isn't weak. Its not an Oh Shit type of cooldown, but something to help during sustained damage (Feng fire, Garalon pharamones). An Spriest doing 80k dps will put out 600k healing over the duration.
    Don't forget divine star on Garalon pulling 30-35k HPS on 25 heroic. Given the choice between a rogue and a Spriest I'd have a really hard choice if I lead my 25, regarding H Garalon progression. Would have to see if I could drop a healer from having the priest or not.

    I'm still not in the mood to complain about a buff that gives us an extra raid tool. Could it be more exciting? Definitely. Is it bad with respect to other classes? In some ways, sure. Do I want it anyway? You bet. I doubt we'll see anything like a "create weakness" CD on an enemy before 6.0, so this is about the best I could see at the moment.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-01-20 at 04:19 PM.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Don't forget divine star on Garalon pulling 30-35k HPS on 25 heroic. Given the choice between a rogue and a Spriest I'd have a really hard choice if I lead my 25, regarding H Garalon progression. Would have to see if I could drop a healer from having the priest or not.
    If it's progression - it gonna be really tight DPS race (unless raid is overgeared this encounter).
    We had two rogues on the 1st kill (exactly 2 months ago), both of them on very top of the list with quite a gap behind them. And we barely made it before enrage (with 1-2 wipes to enrage before that).
    So i don't think there's really a choice between rogue and SP for Garalon HC progression.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    If it's progression - it gonna be really tight DPS race (unless raid is overgeared this encounter).
    We had two rogues on the 1st kill (exactly 2 months ago), both of them on very top of the list with quite a gap behind them. And we barely made it before enrage (with 1-2 wipes to enrage before that).
    So i don't think there's really a choice between rogue and SP for Garalon HC progression.
    A shadowpriest running 55k HPS might let you drop 1 healer to put in an extra DPS. 1 more DPS > 1 of your DPS being a rogue, at least after the "fix" for Garalon, unless your rogues are doubling the DPS of your ranged. Hence the question. And yeah, Spriests do stupid heals on Garalon on 25.

    This is starting to edge off topic though, so I'll drop this here. Short version: Spriest healing is, in some scenarios, VERY significant and may be so great as to allow bringing fewer healers to an encounter, similar to 10H Garalon rogues tanking cleave. Druids may see similar niches pop up regarding HotW if you have a few, when you just need "another healer through THIS section of the fight" to make it through something without an extra healer. Feint puts rogues in this category, but only just barely.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-01-20 at 02:46 AM.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Tigoraha View Post
    I feel like people here are not considering PvP at all. They can't just buff Smokebomb to the extreme without breaking rogues in PvP. It's got its strong and weak points, yes, but it's finally a raid utility beyond Tricks of the Trade. 20% Mitigation for 7 seconds is not a bad thing. The distance will call for strategy and thought when using the ability. In my opinion, I think the fact that it is a small radius is a good move by blizzard, as it does not just give us a mindless raid-wide utility button to press, but something that requires some positioning and consideration.

    I will admit, I don't PvE very much, but I can't see how people are complaining. Stop comparing classes, it's so pointless. It's like comparing apples and elephants. And before you go telling me that rogues don't get invited to raid because we have no utility, just stop. Rogues do a high margin of damage while bringing an interrupt, self-heal (At the cost of dps), great mobility (poor ramp-up though), reduced AoE damage taken, and great peels for add fights. Rogues aren't useless in any means, and with the buffs coming, rogues will be just fine.
    In pvp it is used offensively though. I still don't see the damage reduction being used at the expense of getting a kill.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    similar to 10H Garalon rogues tanking cleave.
    Only the talented portion of Feint works on the cleave, unfortunately. A dps death knight in blood presence does the job better.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    Devo Aura is baseline. Aura Mastery was hPally only, which was the same thing when used with Res Aura.
    Conc aura, actually.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    The above list is for glyphs; CoS is borderline useless on Vizier because all of the base abilities (not counting MC'd players) are physical damage.
    Okay I've been reading this sentence for a couple of times now and I just don't get it. I'm sure somehow the error is on my part but here goes.

    The Glyph of Cloak of Shadows reduces the physical damage you take by 40%. As you said almost all of Vizier's damage is physical. How would that make this glyph completely useless? Damage reduction is damage reduction, farm content or not.
    Bovan.9481
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  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Blind glyph can pull you out of sticky situations on H Mel'jarak if an AoE dot has landed on reinforcements or something got "loose" because of an amber trap.
    See I recognize that as a fight where blind can be useful, but I just don't see the glyph being that great. If an AoE anything lands on it before it gets in the pack, your placement is bad. Now we have certainly had crap happen where the person suppose to cc one of the reinforcements didn't/couldn't but once its in the group thats about the end of that. You can blind it and wipe dots sure (pretty sure mages still have that glyph too right?) but itll still be in the AE range so are you just gonna stop AE'ing and single target? You could have a dps with a taunt drag it out, but at that point you probably have wind bombs so you probably really don't want to do that. You also only get 1 shot with the blind, better to just have some one else with a recastable cc try to deal with it. And an extra 1 guy in there isn't a wipe, just adjust your cc and make it up on the next set of reinforcements (and yes I realize how much triple amber trappers suck and that triple blade guys can gib a person if you are careless, but both are only moderately difficult to deal with). So no, I don't consider that something that falls under the things you "need" category.

    The "got loose" scenario also doesn't really make the glyph any good. Either it gets loose and beats on the person cc'ing it, goes to a healer, or goes into the pile getting AE'd. In the first 2 its not going to be dotted, just blind it.

    I would honestly put it in the "not even worth a second of my time to consider" because there is no way in hell we are trying to have some one taunt one of the mobs and run it out through the wind bombs when just dealing with the unfortunate side effects is easier. Now like I said blind itself is fine, if our mage can't get it and I can blind one before they make it in range, I will, but if its in AE range its done and just adapt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    Must have for Vizier HC. Combined with elusivness it's perfect "oh shit" button.
    Some people taking cheat death for Vizier HC tho.
    An extra "oh shit" button is not a "need" it is just a really nice thing to have. And like you said, you could take cheat death if you really needed an "oh shit" ability. I'm not downplaying its usefulness, but that is not a "need" as you can survive without it (I mean you better as hell be able to because it certainly won't be up every time).

    Now I mean theres perhaps nothing better than the cloak glyph atm, so might as well have it. But if they did add in a new, strong glyph, there isn't a real reason you "need" the cloak glyph.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-01-20 at 10:53 AM.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    The Glyph of Cloak of Shadows reduces the physical damage you take by 40%. As you said almost all of Vizier's damage is physical. How would that make this glyph completely useless?
    I't not useless, glyphed CoS is "oh shit" button for Vizier HC. Feint (with elusivness) gives 65% damage reduction, Feint (with elusivness) + CoS (glyphed) gives 79% damage reduction.
    You can safely run through green bubbles during attenuation several times, you barely taking any damage from force and verve during p2 with it (with additional damage reduction from bubbles).

  17. #97
    Good PvP ability, gets some good PvE love added onto it, and people still complain?

    Stay classy Rogues.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    An extra "oh shit" button is not a "need" it is just a really nice thing to have. And like you said, you could take cheat death if you really needed an "oh shit" ability. I'm not downplaying its usefulness, but that is not a "need" as you can survive without it (I mean you better as hell be able to because it certainly won't be up every time).
    Cheat death gives 80% damage reduction after triggerring (taking killing blow) for 3 sec. Ok, you have 90% damage reduction with feint during those 3 sec, but you're @ 10% it's ~45-50k HP and if you touch green bubble - you're dead (no matter damage reduction)
    CoS is on demand 79% damage reduction which allows you to go through bubbles during attenuation without problem or survive without any heal during force and verve (with more than 50% hp left after that).
    Last edited by Mazius; 2013-01-20 at 11:09 AM.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    The Glyph of Cloak of Shadows reduces the physical damage you take by 40%. As you said almost all of Vizier's damage is physical. How would that make this glyph completely useless? Damage reduction is damage reduction, farm content or not.
    Context error, sorry. I was saying Cloak is useless on vizier WITHOUT the glyph. The glyph itself is useful for the reasons I was posting. I'll go edit that to be clearer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    If an AoE anything lands on it before it gets in the pack, your placement is bad. Now we have certainly had crap happen where the person suppose to cc one of the reinforcements didn't/couldn't but once its in the group thats about the end of that. You can blind it and wipe dots sure (pretty sure mages still have that glyph too right?) but itll still be in the AE range so are you just gonna stop AE'ing and single target? You could have a dps with a taunt drag it out, but at that point you probably have wind bombs so you probably really don't want to do that. You also only get 1 shot with the blind, better to just have some one else with a recastable cc try to deal with it.

    I would honestly put it in the "not even worth a second of my time to consider" because there is no way in hell we are trying to have some one taunt one of the mobs and run it out through the wind bombs when just dealing with the unfortunate side effects is easier. Now like I said blind itself is fine, if our mage can't get it and I can blind one before they make it in range, I will, but if its in AE range its done and just adapt.

    Now I mean theres perhaps nothing better than the cloak glyph atm, so might as well have it. But if they did add in a new, strong glyph, there isn't a real reason you "need" the cloak glyph.
    I don't find myself needing blind either, although my rogue is behind the times, but there are a few judgment calls in here that vary from group to group, and LARGELY between 25 and 10. In a 25, you can generally just make the mages deal with it (although one tried to pawn off the duty onto my warlock with my 20 second fear and I said hell no). If a 10 is running progression on Mel'jarak and a trapper makes it into melee, it is DEFINITELY worth the effort to drag it back out of AoE range and wipe dots on it. It's not difficult to get more traps than you're able to break on 10 if you've got more trappers than you want (CD, halp) which spirals out of control... but I also don't play the best rogue in the world, and I try to assume another rogue will play better than I when it comes to something like being ready to CC an add leaving melee with blind :P

    I don't know I'd call any non-DPS rogue glyph "necessary" constantly (as they have in this thread), but I wouldn't call them useless either (as they have in this thread). More of a middle ground, where they should be (situational). Personally I wouldn't have any problems fitting smoke bomb into a glyph slot, but I also think glyphs SHOULD require thought, and I'd either need to get my group to not screw up with the amber trappers (in the case of the blind glyph discussion) or make sure the mage was free to deal with it if the situation came up, if I needed the smoke bomb glyph. That strikes me as a fine situation, but I'm also not ready to dismiss all of our non-AR/vendetta glyphs.

  20. #100
    Feint and Smoke Bomb glyphs are pretty much "must have" in 5.2 for PvE, regardless of the spec and talents.
    3rd glyph slot is also "taken" for combat/assa, variable for sub.
    P.S. Ofc it is different in 10 man raids if rogue is the only one who can apply weakened armor. Then Feint glyph would have to go (for combat/assa).

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