New Smokebomb

[Deleted]

Context error, sorry. I was saying Cloak is useless on vizier WITHOUT the glyph. The glyph itself is useful for the reasons I was posting. I'll go edit that to be clearer.

Ah I see.
Like I said I read the sentence several times thinking I just didn't get it or something, but I was really confused.

[Sesshou]

Cheat death gives 80% damage reduction after triggerring (taking killing blow) for 3 sec. Ok, you have 90% damage reduction with feint during those 3 sec, but you're @ 10% it's ~45-50k HP and if you touch green bubble - you're dead (no matter damage reduction)
CoS is on demand 79% damage reduction which allows you to go through bubbles during attenuation without problem or survive without any heal during force and verve (with more than 50% hp left after that).

You don't use cheat death to get the 80% damage reduction (though if it pops on something like that and you don't healthstone and just sit waiting for a heal, your fault). Its an "oh shit" ability for when you screw up.

And really how you are so completely oblivious to the most important part that destroys your argument I don't get... You can't "need" the cloak glyph because you will not have cloak up every time and therefore have to survive without it. If you can survive without something, you don't "need" it.

This isn't a dps increase or something, its a glyph that can allow you to do something on occasion that you shouldn't be doing. The cloak glyph is certainly really strong on that fight, and no one is saying otherwise. You are just making a huge mistake between "need" and "good" (well you could probably find a better word than "good").

The only real argument for a "need" you could make is that maybe you "need" something to make up for imperfect play, but you said yourself that cheat death works for that also. Whether or not cheat death is better or not doesn't matter. You have options for "oh shit" abilities and you can survive without them.

@Muga
I don't think making mages deal with it is smart either. Just a better fall back as they can spam poly. I think attempting to have some one taunt it out of the AE while dodging essentially instant raid wipe bombs on the ground and then CCing is just a waste of time. You can certainly make an argument against my statement that I find it useless and wouldn't ever even think about using it (though it is definitely 100% useless if you do not have some one taunt the add and move it out of wherever it is getting AE'd from which would never fly with my raid), but it certainly isn't a "need" to have it (which you seem to agree with).

As far as leaving them up and running out of clickers, you do need to adjust. I'm not saying leave 3 in there and let them sit, you definitely need to move them up in the kill order (which they will also do themselves by having all 3 present). Also we CC 2 of those, so 1 getting loose only means 2 debuffs, 1 blade guy to lower the chance of some one getting gibbed, and just kick all the healers as the time between their casts is incredibly long (I bet counterspell easily comes off cd before a second one). If you did let 2 of the ambers in (on purpose), assuming your initial cc lasted full duration and then the 3rd makes it in, the ambers should be somewhat low and having a 3rd probably makes them ideal to burn next anyway.

[Mazius]

You don't use cheat death to get the 80% damage reduction (though if it pops on something like that and you don't healthstone and just sit waiting for a heal, your fault). Its an "oh shit" ability for when you screw up.

I'm just curious, you've done Vizier HC or talking about talents in general? Attenuation in HC is pretty different from normal, and in addition to Sonic Ring (hits for 140-160k) there's Sonic Pulse (hits for 280k-320k)
Those numbers reduced to 70k-80k and 140-160k with feint, to 49k-56k and 98-112k with talented feint (obviously elusivness already better than cheat death), if you really screwed up - glyphed CoS reduces those numbers further to 29k-34k and 59k-67k (all those numbers before the armor values btw)
Believe me, 100k HS heals won't save you there - you need to prevent damage taken.
Not to mention that you don't need glyphed CoS anywhere else during this fight - it's oh shit" button for P1 and "must have" defensive CD for p2 (for force and verve)

This isn't a dps increase or something, its a glyph that can allow you to do something on occasion that you shouldn't be doing. The cloak glyph is certainly really strong on that fight, and no one is saying otherwise. You are just making a huge mistake between "need" and "good" (well you could probably find a better word than "good").

If that glyph saved my ass on more than one occasion (i was sole survivor on our 1st Vizier HC kill, for example) - then i'm really need this glyph for this fight.

The only real argument for a "need" you could make is that maybe you "need" something to make up for imperfect play, but you said yourself that cheat death works for that also. Whether or not cheat death is better or not doesn't matter. You have options for "oh shit" abilities and you can survive without them.

There's no choice between Cheat Death and Glyph of CoS. Choice is between Elusivness and Cheat Death, and there's no any choice there, tbh.
Elusivness >> Cheat Death, end of story (not only for Vizier HC but in general too).

[Deleted]

With all respect Mazius, on Attenuation you shouldn't be eating any damage at all. Force and Verve is where the glyph comes in handy because you are going to take that damage and there is nothing you can do about it. There you need to lower the damage you take.

Also,

WARNING: PERSONAL OPINION INCOMING

My stance on Cheat Death is the same as it was in Cataclysm. Cheat Death is useless, if it goes off you already messed up, you should never spec or glyph something with the expectation of screwing up. Cheat Death is great if you need to soak certain things but having it as a backup ''well I have Cheat Death so I can just stand in the fire and pretend I don't see it (over-dramatization, don't take it literally)'' ability is really bad. Sure mistakes happen and it's nice having this safety net but you should be preventing these things from happening in the first place. The other two alternatives are always useful during the whole fight. Cheat Death isn't useful until you royally screw up.

PERSONAL OPINION ENDED HERE, EVERYTHING BELOW THIS POINT IS BASED ON TRUE FACTS

Coldkil murders puppies for his own amusement.
Shame on you Coldkil!

[Maelstrom51]

Cheat Death can be useful in some enrage scenarios in a progression setting. I know on my DK purgatory has given enough time for last second kills a couple times.

[Verain]

Purgatory actually gives you the time though. Cheat Death is just for gimmicks.

[Squirl]

The only time I run Cheat Death is H Empress. You're instagibbed by fixate otherwise. Not very useful on any other encounter this tier.

[Kael]

My stance on Cheat Death is the same as it was in Cataclysm. Cheat Death is useless, if it goes off you already messed up, you should never spec or glyph something with the expectation of screwing up. Cheat Death is great if you need to soak certain things but having it as a backup ''well I have Cheat Death so I can just stand in the fire and pretend I don't see it (over-dramatization, don't take it literally)'' ability is really bad. Sure mistakes happen and it's nice having this safety net but you should be preventing these things from happening in the first place. The other two alternatives are always useful during the whole fight. Cheat Death isn't useful until you royally screw up.

I've got to agree up until:

The only time I run Cheat Death is H Empress. You're instagibbed by fixate otherwise. Not very useful on any other encounter this tier.

We've been working on a system to try to "game" the fixate timers for melee to NOT BE IN MELEE when they start going out, but it hasn't proven very useful at all yet. Will definitely say something if we find a way to make it work.

Coldkil murders puppies for his own amusement.
Shame on you Coldkil!

O.o what do I do for fun? And Coldkil always makes sure the puppies are evil first.

[Verain]

And Coldkil always makes sure the puppies are evil first.

That's just because he reads them tracts from Mein Kampf until they are Nazipups. Hardly a rousing recommendation.

[Coldkil]

You know, the temptation to draw slaughtered nazipuppies on MS Paint and post the here is incredibly high.

I won't do such a thing anyway. I'm working on the UI because healers absolutely needed some love (although i don't understand how people can kill things with healing spells - where's the fun if things don't die).

Now, stay on topic :P

[Korie]

The paladin one, Devotion Aura, comes from a healing spec and only effects spell damage.

Its a spell for both holy and prot(not sure about ret.) and reduces physical damage by 20% on a 40yard reach.

[Deleted]

You should have a power/weak aura to warn you for the fixate. If you make that you will see the aura roughly 2 seconds before the fixate actually happens. Now I did heroic Empress on my Hunter and not on my Rogue so it's difficult to comment on something I have no experience with, but can't you just make a macro to Shadowstep to one of the ranged? You have plenty of time to hit your Shadowstep macro when the fixate is on you (if you use an aura) so you can blink out of the melee straight away.

Anyway Cheat Death is fine for these kind of mechanics or mechanics where you are forced to soak something special like Zon'ozz's orb in Dragon Soul. Other than that I really don't get why people spec into Cheat Death unless they aren't that good at avoiding things and this actually gives them a lot more DPS from not dying as often.

O.o what do I do for fun? And Coldkil always makes sure the puppies are evil first.

Math.
And everyone knows that's far more evil compared to murdering puppies and making MSpaint images about them afterwards.

[Deleted]

That's just because he reads them tracts from Mein Kampf until they are Nazipups. Hardly a rousing recommendation.

HAHAHA Really?

[Deleted]

You know, the temptation to draw slaughtered nazipuppies on MS Paint and post the here is incredibly high.

...uncle Adolf!? Is that you?!

[Mazius]

With all respect Mazius, on Attenuation you shouldn't be eating any damage at all. Force and Verve is where the glyph comes in handy because you are going to take that damage and there is nothing you can do about it. There you need to lower the damage you take.

Thats why glyphed CoS is

"oh shit" button for P1 and "must have" defensive CD for p2 (for force and verve)

[Deleted]

What? Seriously, what the hell are you talking about, Mazius?

Having seen every fight this tier, I still haven't found one encounter in which I'd benefit substantially from the Glyph of Cloak. Even as some kind of "of-shit" cooldown, it's useless and inferior to the glyph of Feint. There is literally NOTHING that should be able to kill you with a running Feint this tier unless you're truly horrible at the game and you continuously fail on "instant-wipe" mechanics.

- Running Feint
- Competent healers
- Not failing on mechanics

^Is a 100% guarantee that you will survive any and all mechanics this tier than are meant to hit you. There's absolutely no need to turn Cloak into some kinda pseudo-panic cooldown. It can be slightly useful, sure, but completely unnecessary.

If something continuously kills you, something you cannot survive with Feint up, you're being bad at the game. Simple as that. The Cloak glyph is far from mandatory for anything.

[Deleted]

back on the smokebomb descusion, i always wondered why they never gave us a glyph to be able to "throw" the bomb and place it the same way we place a distract, which with this new 20% reduction chance would make it much more efective when used in pve and allow for offencive useage in pvp that doesn't require a shadowstep first.

[Coldkil]

back on the smokebomb descusion, i always wondered why they never gave us a glyph to be able to "throw" the bomb and place it the same way we place a distract, which with this new 20% reduction chance would make it much more efective when used in pve and allow for offencive useage in pvp that doesn't require a shadowstep first.

It sounds good, but actually it isn't - Distract works because i's a pre-pull manouver and you have the time to place distract well.

It's the same reason Hit and Run has been ditched, a wrong camera position and you have thrown your smoke bomb on the lamps dangling from the ceiling (happened a lot of times with d&d). better make people run and blame them if they fail

[Mazius]

What? Seriously, what the hell are you talking about, Mazius?

And hello to you, sir.

Having seen every fight this tier

Than we don't have common ground.

I still haven't found one encounter in which I'd benefit substantially from the Glyph of Cloak. Even as some kind of "of-shit" cooldown, it's useless and inferior to the glyph of Feint. There is literally NOTHING that should be able to kill you with a running Feint this tier unless you're truly horrible at the game and you continuously fail on "instant-wipe" mechanics.

I suppose you only using 2 glyph slots instead of 3?
CoS glyph is the 3rd glyph for this fight (after Vendetta/AR and feint glyphs).
You obviously haven't seen Vizier HC, you obviously never seen what is HC attenuation is (or double attenuation), you obviously never got freed from convert in the middle of the yellow and green bubbles (from dubble attenuation) with 50% HP with nothing to do but to "eat" bubbles etc, and you obviously never had to survive force and verve in last phase on your own outside of the bubble (only limited amount of people can get damage reduction from bubble) on your own. Full force and verve with Feint on (with elusivness) deals about 500k damage (using glyphed CoS lowers this number to 390k).

- Running Feint
- Competent healers
- Not failing on mechanics

Hello, cp't Obvious.

^Is a 100% guarantee that you will survive any and all mechanics this tier than are meant to hit you. There's absolutely no need to turn Cloak into some kinda pseudo-panic cooldown. It can be slightly useful, sure, but completely unnecessary.

I've already described situation that would kill you, if you wouldn't use Feint + glyphed CoS.
Besides that during last phase's force and verve you need to squeeze any additional damage reduction you can (without taking bubble).

The Cloak glyph is far from mandatory for anything.

Only fight you need it in this tier - Vizier HC.
But as you're completely competent and awesomely good in this game, you wouldn't need it.

[Verain]

Having seen every fight this tier, I still haven't found one encounter in which I'd benefit substantially from the Glyph of Cloak.

Ok, what?

I see several encounters where it can be useful.

MV:
Spirit Kings- Can be combined with feint to allow living through a flanking orders. I agree this shouldn't come up.
Will- Can help you tank a failed mechanic. Not a good "oh shit" button, however.
HoF:
Imperial Vizier- As pointed out, can reduce force and verve damage. This can reduce healing pressure, and even let your team screw up the triple bubbles a bit (if someone extra is in your bubble, you can walk to the one that they should be in with this active).
H Blade Lord- You can walk into the blade storm to do more damage with cloak up. This allows the glyph to equal more damage for you, which on most fights it does not.
Garalon- On a fight where you may find yourself tanking (and if you do not, many rogues do), this turns cloak from largely without use during the fight to be able to keep you up through hits that would otherwise be fatal, should a healer fall or be out of range. This is a VERY good glyph on this fight.
H Wind Lord- You can use this during Korwhatever strike, though I suggest simply letting cheat death take this hit.
Terrace:
Sha- This allows you to happily sit in death blossom. Naturally, it stacks with feint and elusiveness, turning what would otherwise be a target for a healer after he comes back into LOS into a high health and happy rogue.

Even as some kind of "of-shit" cooldown, it's useless and inferior to the glyph of Feint.

While I would agree it's generally worse than glyph of feint, glyph of feint is a dps glyph- you use it to reduce the penalty of pressing feint. Often, the extra seconds do not matter, and if they DO, it's only to allow you to press feint less often. But take many of the times we press feint- you often do it to tank one hit or a very small duration of aoe reduction.

It is definitely NOT useless. I could make a case for it on several fights (the above) even if we only got ONE glyph- but instead we get three. What other two glyphs are you so married too? As C or A you have a dps increasing glyph that has little effect, but could definitely be taken if you desire.

There is literally NOTHING that should be able to kill you with a running Feint this tier unless you're truly horrible at the game and you continuously fail on "instant-wipe" mechanics.

Not really relevant though. I wouldn't call it mandatory, but what three glyphs do you think are THAT much better?

Feint is pretty keen, though it actually helps you at all on less fights than glyph of cloak.
Expose Armor is good if you do that. It's VERY good (I would say mandatory) if you are the only source of it.
Glyph of AR and glyph of Vendetta are both pretty small dps boosts on average. Vendetta is the larger of the two, and it puts a requirement on you (and also reduces your burst damage).
Glyph of Crippling Poison can come out on a couple fights (empress), glyph of evasion is only if you expect to tank, glyph of recup is fine if you are recuping, glyph of smoke bomb will be highly desired in 5.2+....

I'm seeing cloak glyph compare very well there.

The Cloak glyph is far from mandatory for anything.

Agreed, but I can make the case that it is the second or third best glyph in general for pve.