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  1. #201
    reducing DA and/or giving spirit shell a longer cd just encourages stacking more priests to retain the same level of control over encounters.

  2. #202
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    Back when they first added DA to PoH to make it viable the problem of using it to stack absorbs was discussed. One possible solution mentioned was to simply make PoH convert all previous DA on the targets healed into instant direct healing and just leaving the new DA caused by that PoH behind.

    This would have solved the throughput problem (PoH healing way less for Disc than for Holy with no alternatives like Holy has) and prevented excessive DA stacking. It would even improve Disc's ability to heal groups back up after heavy raiddamage not on a fixed timer, something it would currently struggle with if such encounters came back.

    I think something like this would work better than just removing DA form PoH completely, which might make it too weak due to targeting limitations and lack of complimentary aoe smartheals. It's easier to balance as well. (Since there would be two more numbers to tweak whereas the version currently tested has none on the side of disc priests.)
    Last edited by Noradin; 2013-01-20 at 10:19 PM.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    On the PTR testing of Horridon our Disc Priest was doing the same about of raw HPS as the buffed Resto Druid was, sometimes even higher.
    That tells us absolutely nothing. How far into the fight did you get. I doubt you actually killed him so you are only seeing a fragment of the fight. Tank healing seems to be the brunt the healing here and most of the raid healing is single target too. What kind of HPS are you reaching. High overheal fights disc can get an advantage over resto, but try the same with a good paladin and you will see what I am talking about.

    Also how good is your resto, what assignments you got and how do you know that a disc priest is doing ok. Did you priest try holy at all?

    All in all we know exactly where disc priests will be after 5.2, because we know how we did at the start of MoP. Single target heals were buffed a bit, spirit shell nerfed a lot, PoH nerfed (slightly lower HPS and no absorbs), mana costs lowered. If we were not viable at the start of MoP how is it possible that these buffs will make us viable.

    The answer is it won't. We were able to stack absorbs in the start of MoP and spirit shell healed for much more back then. Did anyone think disc was OP then? The answer is absorbs on their own are just not the problem. The problem is blizzard overbuffing PoH and spirit shell to ridiculous extents so a PoH puts the same amount of absorb as a PWS does.

    Blizzard current iteration of changes will just lead to more crappy hotfixes....
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-01-20 at 10:23 PM.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    That tells us absolutely nothing. How far into the fight did you get. I doubt you actually killed him so you are only seeing a fragment of the fight. Tank healing seems to be the brunt the healing here and most of the raid healing is single target too. What kind of HPS are you reaching. High overheal fights disc can get an advantage over resto, but try the same with a good paladin and you will see what I am talking about.

    Also how good is your resto, what assignments you got and how do you know that a disc priest is doing ok. Did you priest try holy at all?

    All in all we know exactly where disc priests will be after 5.2, because we know how we did at the start of MoP. Single target heals were buffed a bit, spirit shell nerfed a lot, PoH nerfed (slightly lower HPS and no absorbs), mana costs lowered. If we were not viable at the start of MoP how is it possible that these buffs will make us viable.

    The answer is it won't. We were able to stack absorbs in the start of MoP and spirit shell healed for much more back then. Did anyone think disc was OP then? The answer is absorbs on their own are just not the problem. The problem is blizzard overbuffing PoH and spirit shell to ridiculous extents so a PoH puts the same amount of absorb as a PWS does.

    Blizzard current iteration of changes will just lead to more crappy hotfixes....
    The boss was killed. The druid is a trial, but a great one (IMO). Priest likes Holy but plays what is best and she believes Disc > Holy. They 2 healed the fight. It may come as a surprise, but in 5.2 bad Discs will get caught out and hopefully they'll be punished for it. Just like Mistweavers who rode the 'OP' bandwagon. Utterly nerfed and most Mistweavers rerolled because they were terrible.

    Discs will be more than fine, Discs scale really well and it's just a joke that PoH is used more to blanket DA than to actually heal.
    Last edited by Manamontana; 2013-01-20 at 10:35 PM.

  5. #205
    They could just make DA work like echo of light as well.

    Basically make it not stack, just add the difference to the old shield ect.
    Holy Paladin since 2006

  6. #206
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    I wonder if Blizzard has even considered how the PWS change will affect the PWS glyph. If they are reducing the ability to shield via PoH and instead want us to shield via PWS more, then why would we want to glyph PWS and lose even more absorb, by 20%?

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkener View Post
    I wonder if Blizzard has even considered how the PWS change will affect the PWS glyph. If they are reducing the ability to shield via PoH and instead want us to shield via PWS more, then why would we want to glyph PWS and lose even more absorb, by 20%?
    That glyph seems useless to me anyway. Not sure when you would ever want it.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazor View Post
    Prayer of Healing according to wowhead:

    "A powerful prayer heals the friendly target's party members within 30 yards for 8450 to 8927 (+ 83.8% of SpellPower)."

    Let's assume 20% crit, 40% mastery, 10% haste (arbitrary and low, considering uptime on Borrowed Time will be higher next patch) and 27500 SP, all are of course raid buffed:
    Mazor.
    Dear Mazor. I have my hat with a little salt near me, but, if you will check what I actually said:
    You claimed non Aegis PoH can do 100k hps, have you ever checked how much actual healing from poh alone does your disc priest do? Go check that, add the overhealing to it, and you'll get the actual practical output POH will have. I'll eat my hat if its 100k.
    I asked about what actually happens in a raid, numbers taken from a log, with AA/grace/PI and whatever you want in the equation, not numbers from wowhead. Key word is practical output, not theoretical. In a practical raid, the possibility of poh hitting 5 ppl is extremely rare due to range issues. I did assume no overhealing, even if even that is a bit of a stretch, a spell like PoH actually has a large chance on overhealing, especially if it manages to crit on a person that doesn't need any particularly high healing, due to the fact that all other healers have smart spells, therefor there will never be a situation in which all your party members lack the same amount of health. Right now, I am having a hard time imagining which boss would allow poh to hit 5 ppl most of the time, as most of them have some sort of spread mechanic.

    im holding massive reservations about DA being withdrawn from PoH. after literally jsut doing garalon hc (other healer a holy pally) if DA wasnt there, as a disc priest i would feel incredibly vulnerable not being able to "reliably" mitigate the incoming damage

    why not jsut decrease the imposed HP cap from DA and SS? down from 40% an 60%, to maybe 20% and 30% respectively.
    I think caps on absorbs in some sort of form would be good to not allow extreme uses. I also think a guaranteed DA on poh should be a much lower amount than crits on single target spells. Normally, considering its 50% with a 20-30% chance (depending on gear), I'd say DA should also be @10-15% on poh (though that would make it look a bit like pala mastery).

    Another solution would be a new mechanic for DA stacking (something like what Noradin said), or a completely new aoe spell that we could use when poh isnt the best answer.
    Last edited by Saphiramoon; 2013-01-21 at 08:33 AM.

  9. #209
    If your PoHs aren't hitting all 5 party members, tell your raid leader to give you assistance so you can organise groups. Our Priests are able to hit 5 targets all the time: even on Sha of Fear HC.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    If your PoHs aren't hitting all 5 party members, tell your raid leader to give you assistance so you can organise groups. Our Priests are able to hit 5 targets all the time: even on Sha of Fear HC.
    10 man or 25 man? Because in a 10 man, you basically have tanks+melee in a group, and ranged+healers in another and you dont need to spread on a larger distance than in 25 man, you can have your entire raid in a 40 yards range. Its a different thing to heal a raid that needs to spread 8 yards between 5 ppl and a raid that needs to spread 8 yards between 17. In 25 melees usually are pretty bunched up but due to healing rain/efflo/chain heal, they are also less likely to need healing. Also, we dont always have 7-8 melees to fill exactly 2 groups with tanks, or sometimes tanks need to be fairly apart (ex, dogs, where I am exiled with a tank away at the end of the room). The ranged+healers tho, I'd need to ask them to position themselves according to groups. I tried, it never really worked. I am using a spell indicator to tell me which target is more likely to be in range of poh (not really sure how it calculates it really, all it has is a threshold of healing done, which is prolly overall, so it feels only half reliable to me, it could just tell you that 2 ppl in that party together will take that threshold healing needed). I can see aegis on my frames, and hitting 5 targets is always fucked up on any fight that requires spreading.

    Then, if only 3 ppl in a party need healing, its still better to use poh than anything else atm, since casting 3 single target spells is slower and more expensive. You could say I could atonement heal, but even that takes 4-5 seconds for 3 ppl, and 3 ppl are the 8th part of the raid compared to 10 man where they are a third. If I have to heal 9 ppl that took dmg in 3 different parties, casting 3xpoh and spending 7 seconds on it is still better than casting smite/holy fire/penance for 13 seconds with a chance to land heals on pets (which are also more in 25 man).
    Last edited by Saphiramoon; 2013-01-21 at 10:21 AM.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    10 man or 25 man?
    25 of course.

    Although I don't pay much attention it works like this:

    group 1 = tanks + Mistweavers (melee range)
    group 2 = pure melee (melee range)
    group 3 = healers (stand in middle / melee on fights where they can like Tsulong etc)
    group 4 = ranged dps, stand left
    group 5 = ranged dps, stand right
    Last edited by Manamontana; 2013-01-21 at 10:11 AM.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    25 of course.

    Although I don't pay much attention it works like this:

    group 1 = tanks + Mistweavers (melee range)
    group 2 = pure melee (melee range)
    group 3 = healers (stand in middle / melee on fights where they can like Tsulong etc)
    group 4 = ranged dps, stand left
    group 5 = ranged dps, stand right
    I guess your raid is more organized than mine. My healing officer is a paladin and she doesn't give a damn about groups (heck, I spent a month this expansion to convince my raidleader that barrier is a decent raid cd, and he still prefers AM, or devotion aura, as they call it now), I even have to ask her to put melees in a group together and that's all I can hope for. I can ask ppl to kingdom come for them to arrange in a way to compliment my poh, they wont do it, all I'd get would be "olol you just want to get some ranks".
    Last edited by Saphiramoon; 2013-01-21 at 10:27 AM.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    25 of course.

    Although I don't pay much attention it works like this:

    group 1 = tanks + Mistweavers (melee range)
    group 2 = pure melee (melee range)
    group 3 = healers (stand in middle / melee on fights where they can like Tsulong etc)
    group 4 = ranged dps, stand left
    group 5 = ranged dps, stand right
    Ive never seen Sha on 25man, just 10, so bear with me...im assuming platforms work the same, and a certain number of RANDOM people are ported to the platform, yah?

    What happens to PoH then?

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    Ive never seen Sha on 25man, just 10, so bear with me...im assuming platforms work the same, and a certain number of RANDOM people are ported to the platform, yah?

    What happens to PoH then?
    No-one takes damage on the platforms if it's done right. Only the tank.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    No-one takes damage on the platforms if it's done right. Only the tank.
    Its not about whether they do or don't, its about what happens to PoH usage when you cant control raid positioning.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    "olol you just want to get some ranks".
    Sounds like you need a new raid leader who understands that arranging groups properly to suit the priest(s) in the raid will improve overall raid performance, unless there is another valid reason to have people in the groups they are in.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Macanam View Post
    Sounds like you need a new raid leader who understands that arranging groups properly to suit the priest(s) in the raid will improve overall raid performance, unless there is another valid reason to have people in the groups they are in.
    Actually that's what other healers usually comment :P. I play for my guild alone and that comes before performance for me, so I wont complain, sorry if it sounded so, maybe from this position I shouldn't talk at all . I'll just continue watching the debate here until we have some test results.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    Actually that's what other healers usually comment :P. I play for my guild alone and that comes before performance for me, so I wont complain, sorry if it sounded so, maybe from this position I shouldn't talk at all . I'll just continue watching the debate here until we have some test results.
    Either way, the raid groups should be set up to help the healers as much as possible.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    If your PoHs aren't hitting all 5 party members, tell your raid leader to give you assistance so you can organise groups. Our Priests are able to hit 5 targets all the time: even on Sha of Fear HC

    The boss was killed. The druid is a trial, but a great one (IMO). Priest likes Holy but plays what is best and she believes Disc > Holy. They 2 healed the fight. It may come as a surprise, but in 5.2 bad Discs will get caught out and hopefully they'll be punished for it. Just like Mistweavers who rode the 'OP' bandwagon. Utterly nerfed and most Mistweavers rerolled because they were terrible.

    Discs will be more than fine, Discs scale really well and it's just a joke that PoH is used more to blanket DA than to actually heal.
    No one hits 5 targets every time with PoH, unless the raid is stacked. Unless they only hit groups, who have no one on platforms. No matter how we organise the raid it is often the case that all but one group have 3 or 4 targets because the rest are on platforms. (can have up to 10 ppl on platforms). In other words if I want to blanket the raid with absorbs I will be hitting less than 5 targets.

    Trial druid and how exactly did you determine that he is good? Also there were plenty of parses on beta from disc priests who were doing well in some fights even against monks or palas, but it didn't make priests viable. It is possible that there is a big skill difference between the two healers. If your priest has a holy spec and chose discipline she chose it because it is potentially a fight that plays into disc mechanics. That means you would expect disc to be consistently ahead of the druid, not equal. Because your experience is subjective and very light on facts and numbers you are unable to see the big picture.

    And the big picture is disc especially on 25man will be severely undertuned once again, on 10man on all aoe fights disc will also be undertuned, but less than 25man. This is nothing to do with skill. No one gives a damn if in one guild a disc priest is doing well, because of a large difference in skill with the other healers. The question is how much HPS can disc contributes when pushed to the limit. We have several weeks worth of experience at the start of MoP that tells us in no uncertain terms that answer is: Not nearly as much as other healers.

    We can easily calculate how much HPS each class can push out, both theoretically and on the meters. Either blizzard will fix that before 5.2 or we will get some ridiculous hotfix that breaks more than it fixes again.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 03:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazor View Post
    You managed to roll most of Disc's mechanical issues into 1 phrase right here.
    In fact, someone calculated in the US forums that using PoH (on live) to heal 1 person is the best HPM/HPS you can do, provided the DA on all members will be used (which isn't far fetched, to be honest).

    This might be skewed one way or another because of Inner Focus, the crit % does seem somewhat high, but looking at other fights (Protectors normal elite, Feng HC, Empress normal) it's somewhat consistent.

    Have a nice day,
    Mazor.
    PoH is not even close to being a useful spell one 1 target. Whoever calculated that made some ridiculous assumption.

    100k is about right for 38k spellpower, 25% crit and 10% haste on a fight with very high sustainable damage. In that setting I would expect disc with 5.1 hc gear to hit ~110-120k HPS. You can expect every other class to start at 140 and mistweavers to hit upwards of 170.

    With 25k spellpower (my unbuffed value) and assuming buffed mastery,crit and haste I can hit 128k max HPS (zero overheal) on a 30s sequence using penance,pom,solace on CD+PWS every15s and the rest PoH with some glyphed BH in the mix. With a high PWS high borrowed time sequence and mastery stacking I can hit 120k max HPS, but in a way that less susceptible to overheal. This is without poping PI and AA
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-01-22 at 03:18 AM.

  20. #220
    OMG, stop constant whining and go try it.
    I tested Disc on PTR - its good.
    Not OP like now. Its even to others, but have absorbs, dps and strong raid CDs.

    I make facepalm every time when see post like Havoc`s.

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