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  1. #241
    Already has a cap; 60%. 20% is less than a single PW:S, reachable in one cast.

    The problem is, you cap it in 10s and run out of targets unless the AoE already started. Yet, you don't run out of people to SS in 25s, even with one IF. So, in 25s it has a very, very big room to scale...

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    So doing double the amount of healing over all your other healers in a raid,


    On a different note, the patch won't be coming out for at LEAST another month.. maybe 1.5 months with the rate they are going on testing/changes.

    It's very likely disc will see some form of buff to either PoH or some other ability to increase raw throughput a little bit to balance out the amount of absorbs we lost from DA.

    1) I don't think people need to be freaking out about the changes as much as they are *yet*

    2) I don't think that the changes, if they stayed the same, will truly break disc. They just buffed PW:S for disc, so you are going to be seeing shields upwards of 200k come 5.2 if the changes stay. (Granted you are stacking mastery)


    3) Absorbs will be the same probably on the meters, maybe a little less... obviously for balance sake. But instead of seeing "SS followed by DA followed by POH" you will probably see "PW:S/Spirit Shell (Depending on the fight) PoH, Atonment"


    They didn't completely nerf our ability to heal, they simply changed the way we do it now...
    There is no indication that they are buffing PWS, that is currently just a buggy tooltip atm.

    PWS is still too expensive. Do you realise what blizzard have done with it?

    Before a PWS would set you back 18.3k mana or so and would return easily 35k on average from rapture with 13k spirit due to the scaling from spirit procs. Now the same PWS will cost you 13.7k mana and will return 19.5k mana. With the old model casting 2 PWS per rapture period would cost you 1k mana. With the new model casting 2x PWS will now set you back 6k mana. Blizzard did not make rolling PWS cheaper. They made it more expensive. You won't be able to use much PWS and using it in a clump before a raid spike is just too inefficient. You need to make use of borrowed time to make PWS worth casting. Otherwise its just a tool for ooming yourself fast.

    They nerfed too much too fast and they didn't give discipline any new way of healing. All they did was buff binding heal and penance and effectively remove PoH from our repertoire, because right now it is just too weak and people who think crit will make it better are in for a surprise.

  3. #243
    Why can't they keep disc exactly how they are, and all the other classes turn off absorbs on recount so they can feel like they're winning?

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimsumlol View Post
    Why can't they keep disc exactly how they are, and all the other classes turn off absorbs on recount so they can feel like they're winning?
    Not sure if serious.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos View Post
    Not sure if serious.
    What's wrong with that idea?

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimsumlol View Post
    What's wrong with that idea?
    Absorbs don't show on BG healing meters, and occasionally even get criticized for the perceived lack of performance. Hiding absorbs in PvE would make things 100x worse.

    Numbers and meters matter, no matter what Blizzard claims. The lack of meters is partly why SWTOR failed.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    Absorbs don't show on BG healing meters, and occasionally even get criticized for the perceived lack of performance. Hiding absorbs in PvE would make things 100x worse.

    Numbers and meters matter, no matter what Blizzard claims. The lack of meters is partly why SWTOR failed.
    So they need to buff disc then in order to compete. I don't understand the fuss from other classes about absorbs. They're healers. Discs are healers and absorbs. Why they would look at the absorb part is beyond me.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimsumlol View Post
    I don't understand the fuss from other classes about absorbs. Why they would look at the absorb part is beyond me.
    The allure of an mmo is not only co-operation, but also COMPETITION.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    The allure of an mmo is not only co-operation, but also COMPETITION.
    So wouldn't it make even more sense for them to see how they're doing against other pure healing classes and leave disc out of it? Seriously, just turn off absorbs on recount and disc will be at the bottom and then all the other healers can feel like they've accomplished something. That way I don't have to re-learn my class every patch.

  10. #250
    Legendary! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimsumlol View Post
    So wouldn't it make even more sense for them to see how they're doing against other pure healing classes and leave disc out of it? Seriously, just turn off absorbs on recount and disc will be at the bottom and then all the other healers can feel like they've accomplished something. That way I don't have to re-learn my class every patch.
    Except you're forgetting one key fundamental flaw : THAT ISN'T HOW IT WORKS.

    The more mitigation a disc priest is providing = the less healing the rest of the raid is doing. Ergo, simply "taking absorbs out of Recount" doesn't make disc look bad, it makes EVERYONE look bad.

    Beyond which, Recount doesn't matter. World of Logs does. Ever take a look over there? You can't "turn off absorbs", and lo and behold, EHPS leaders through pretty much every single solitary AoE encounter in this tier is....you guessed it, discipline priests.

    To clarify, I'll give you a rundown of the top 10 of the fights where AoE is present in higher quantities, and how many of the top 10 spots discipline occupies.

    Protectors : 7
    Wind Lord : 10
    Amber Shaper : 5
    Shek'zeer : 10
    Feng : 4
    Elegon : 4

    Notice how two fights are completely and utterly DOMINATED by discipline priests. That's just 10-MAN. Want to see 25?

    Zor'lok : 7
    Wind Lord : 10
    Amber Shaper : 10
    Shek'zeer : 7
    Lei Shi : 8 (I don't even...)
    Protectors : 7 (both normal and elite modes)

    I'm sorry that you have to "relearn your class", but the spec is clearly broken. I'm playing both. Not only is this not even fun, it's not even how healing should work. At least BC holy priest used more than one spell more often than not to win at healing (for the old school priests, you know what I'm talking about here). Disc doesn't even do that. It's PoH = 100k HPS. Everyone else is healing their asses off to try and get close to that with everything in their arsenal while you just sit there going "la la la" targeting a random person in a party and pushing your 1 key. It's arcane mage for healers, and it's terrible.

    Maybe you're not cut out for healing if that kind of playstyle doesn't bother you. I've been doing it for seven years, all on priest. I'm glad they're fixing it. It's justified and it's needed. Granted, I think there's better solutions (just simply remove the additional 20% mastery bonus discipline gets and boom, fixed), but anything to get people to realize that priests have more than one healing spec is good enough for me.
    Bacon is the thing pigs give you when you're good.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    Except you're forgetting one key fundamental flaw : THAT ISN'T HOW IT WORKS.

    The more mitigation a disc priest is providing = the less healing the rest of the raid is doing. Ergo, simply "taking absorbs out of Recount" doesn't make disc look bad, it makes EVERYONE look bad.

    Beyond which, Recount doesn't matter. World of Logs does. Ever take a look over there? You can't "turn off absorbs", and lo and behold, EHPS leaders through pretty much every single solitary AoE encounter in this tier is....you guessed it, discipline priests.

    To clarify, I'll give you a rundown of the top 10 of the fights where AoE is present in higher quantities, and how many of the top 10 spots discipline occupies.

    Protectors : 7
    Wind Lord : 10
    Amber Shaper : 5
    Shek'zeer : 10
    Feng : 4
    Elegon : 4

    Notice how two fights are completely and utterly DOMINATED by discipline priests. That's just 10-MAN. Want to see 25?

    Zor'lok : 7
    Wind Lord : 10
    Amber Shaper : 10
    Shek'zeer : 7
    Lei Shi : 8 (I don't even...)
    Protectors : 7 (both normal and elite modes)

    I'm sorry that you have to "relearn your class", but the spec is clearly broken. I'm playing both. Not only is this not even fun, it's not even how healing should work. At least BC holy priest used more than one spell more often than not to win at healing (for the old school priests, you know what I'm talking about here). Disc doesn't even do that. It's PoH = 100k HPS. Everyone else is healing their asses off to try and get close to that with everything in their arsenal while you just sit there going "la la la" targeting a random person in a party and pushing your 1 key. It's arcane mage for healers, and it's terrible.

    Maybe you're not cut out for healing if that kind of playstyle doesn't bother you. I've been doing it for seven years, all on priest. I'm glad they're fixing it. It's justified and it's needed. Granted, I think there's better solutions (just simply remove the additional 20% mastery bonus discipline gets and boom, fixed), but anything to get people to realize that priests have more than one healing spec is good enough for me.
    If the bosses are dying before the raid, what does it matter what the meters say? What does it matter that all the healers "look bad"? Everyone is still alive, so I figure that looks really good.

    You have this interesting passive aggressive thing going on. Yes, I know WOL and I would rank weekly in Cata. Only ranked a few times this tier due to lack of progression and now I'm behind the gear curve, but still consistently get in the top 90 percentile in ranking info with my leet blues.
    I am cut out for healing because I've been playing since Mauradon came out, raided everything and I even kept my Benediction from the glory days when I was spamming heal rank 2 and I was one of the few priests we had that could have 2 renews on a tank.

    But you go ahead, keep acting like a meter matters. Hint, it doesn't. The only thing that matters is the boss' HP hitting zero before your raid.

  12. #252
    Fenixdown has just owned your face there dimsumlol, you should curl up in a corner and cry yourself to sleep. L2P.

  13. #253
    Disagree. WOL doesn't matter. Meters don't matter. Boss HP hitting zero before the raid is what matters. If you don't like the arcane mage style of disc priests then go play a shaman that spams OP rain. Or a pally that spams OP radiance or a druid that spams OP growth or a monk that spams OP crane kick. My god, prayer of healing (and our 90 talent) are the only aoe spells we have. It's quite obvious what we're going to be spamming.

    Even after they nerf it, you do realize we'll still just be spamming prayer of healing, right? The only thing is they're going to make us useless. That sounds like fun.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimsumlol View Post
    Disagree. WOL doesn't matter. Meters don't matter. Boss HP hitting zero before the raid is what matters. If you don't like the arcane mage style of disc priests then go play a shaman that spams OP rain. Or a pally that spams OP radiance or a druid that spams OP growth or a monk that spams OP crane kick. My god, prayer of healing (and our 90 talent) are the only aoe spells we have. It's quite obvious what we're going to be spamming.

    Even after they nerf it, you do realize we'll still just be spamming prayer of healing, right? The only thing is they're going to make us useless. That sounds like fun.
    Not sure if dumb or trolling....."Meters dont matter" Wrong, it does matter.
    So if were all spamming our OP spells but the disc priest version of spams beats the rest into the ground then thats ok?
    Btw have you tried disc in ptr's or watch streams of ptr's? Blood Legions Stream shows disc priests still topping the meters. So actually disc still needs more nerfs in my opinion. Hope discs gets more tuning, still too op.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by shabbaaaaa View Post
    Not sure if dumb or trolling....."Meters dont matter" Wrong, it does matter.
    So if were all spamming our OP spells but the disc priest version of spams beats the rest into the ground then thats ok?
    Btw have you tried disc in ptr's or watch streams of ptr's? Blood Legions Stream shows disc priests still topping the meters. So actually disc still needs more nerfs in my opinion. Hope discs gets more tuning, still too op.
    So because I don't agree with you I'm either dumb or trolling? I don't agree with that.
    Please explain to me why a meter matters. There is no in-game damage meter. If it was necessary to have one and they "mattered" then they would be included with the game.
    In my opinion the only thing that matters is the boss kill. Who cares what the numbers say as long as the boss goes down?

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimsumlol View Post
    So because I don't agree with you I'm either dumb or trolling? I don't agree with that.
    Please explain to me why a meter matters. There is no in-game damage meter. If it was necessary to have one and they "mattered" then they would be included with the game.
    In my opinion the only thing that matters is the boss kill. Who cares what the numbers say as long as the boss goes down?
    You're dumb because it's a false copout argument used by people who don't think things through. Meters matter because you want to have the biggest chance of killing hard bosses. If you're still 4/6 MSV, then no, meters don't matter. But otherwise, you use meters and logs to see "Oh, that guy only did 30k DPS" or "Oh, she's dying to X 50% of the time." Meters also allow you to compare yourself to your peers, driving competition, ultimately improving everything for trying harder. So because Disc Priests top the meters (In some cases, grossly so), they effectively take out competition, and they definitely eliminate any argument about which class/player you should bring, because the answer is almost always a Disc Priest, unless you already have 3.

    You may now proceed to grasp at straws to prove me wrong.

    PS: I'm a Disc Priest myself.

  17. #257
    Try to think about how absorbs affect the meter and what the result is, and you might realise that for discs to be anywhere close to competitive in a setting with predictable raid damage we need to be topping the meter.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    I don't agree with shell not working with mastery, that's a half assed change TBH.
    Current PTR build:

    - Spirit shell works with mastery
    - Passive Divine Aegis removed from Prayer of Healing: this is nerf for Spirit Shell too
    - PW:S absorb increased by 40%
    - PW:S mana cost reduced by 25%
    - Rapture gives mana equal to 150% of your spirit.
    - Penance increased by 20%

    Hope these changes are final, looks fine for me

  19. #259
    Lots of complicated to's and fro's going on but if you get back to basics... what is the problem and why/how does it happen.

    Problem... Disc priests cream the meters compared to others.

    Q/ How do they win the meters?
    A/ They can stack DA through the roof, basically sniping the heals.

    Q/ How can they afford to stack it so much?
    A/ Ridiculously high mana regen makes it possible

    Q/ Why do they do it?
    A/ Shielding is all they have. If you look at the healing meters all of their "actual" healing is less than pathetic.

    Q/ OK... so they heal for nothing, how do we nerf them so other healers can compete?
    A/ Well, we're Blizzard so we can nerf their shields, basically reducing their AoE throughput by about 40%

    Q/ Seems harsh Blizz... How will that affect 10 mans.
    A/ Should screw them up nicely... lol. No-one will want a Disc priest in a 10 man when most fights are 2 healed. Muwhahaha!

    You suck Blizz... just too nasty.

    Blizzard: OK Mr knowitall, what would you do?
    Player: Simple... If a Poh heals for 30k and procs a 20k shield, why not buff PoH to heal for 40k and proc a 10k shield. Change the Mastery and DA coefficients.
    Blizzard: Hmm... no good, they'll still stack DA too high.
    Player: OK then, what say you nerf their mana regen?
    Blizzard: Nerfs... now you're talking our language.
    Player: Maybe cap DA so it can't stack as high?
    Blizzard: Interesting concepts... but I'm bored with your logical approach. You're aware of course that we've buffed Penance and PW:S?
    Player: Saw that... looks like you want them to head back into the tank healer role.
    Blizzard: Well yes... Just this minute Tank healers have become necessary in 10 man raids with 2 healers
    Player: Pardon..? Maybe I misunderstood. Did you just say that all of a sudden Tank healers were necessary in current raid content?
    Blizzard: Yes
    Player: I have to disagree. When Draw Flames, Earthquake, Radiating Energies, Force and Verve, titan Gas, Crush and the like go off, what then?
    Blizzard: Well it's obvious... The whole raid will die, but the Tank the Disc Priest was looking after will die last. Mission accomplished.
    Player: Oh
    Blizzard: Any other questions?
    Player: Doesn't seem like a sound plan to me
    Blizzard: Any other questions?
    Player: I've been playing a Disc Priest for over 5 years and know them pretty well, could you at least consider what I've said?
    Blizzard: Any other questions?
    Player: Nevermind.
    Last edited by Bigbuffdaddy; 2013-01-26 at 03:09 PM. Reason: Formatting

  20. #260
    Moderator Rivelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    I'm sorry that you have to "relearn your class", but the spec is clearly broken. I'm playing both. Not only is this not even fun, it's not even how healing should work. At least BC holy priest used more than one spell more often than not to win at healing (for the old school priests, you know what I'm talking about here). Disc doesn't even do that. It's PoH = 100k HPS. Everyone else is healing their asses off to try and get close to that with everything in their arsenal while you just sit there going "la la la" targeting a random person in a party and pushing your 1 key. It's arcane mage for healers, and it's terrible.

    Maybe you're not cut out for healing if that kind of playstyle doesn't bother you. I've been doing it for seven years, all on priest. I'm glad they're fixing it. It's justified and it's needed. Granted, I think there's better solutions (just simply remove the additional 20% mastery bonus discipline gets and boom, fixed), but anything to get people to realize that priests have more than one healing spec is good enough for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sevyvia View Post
    So because Disc Priests top the meters (In some cases, grossly so), they effectively take out competition, and they definitely eliminate any argument about which class/player you should bring, because the answer is almost always a Disc Priest, unless you already have 3.
    I have to agree with these statements, particularly after an experience this week where my bored spamming in LFR led to me having up to 10% more healing done than the next healer (namely the second half of HoF) and the incredulous resto shaman linking a meter and begging me to leave them with something to heal.

    I agree that disc needs a nerf. However, I'm uneasy because after playing a priest since early BC, I picked up mistweaver as a new main for the first two months of this expansion. I was quickly shown that this was a poor idea since Blizzard threw three different knee-jerk reaction nerfs at them with 5.1. I had agreed with the fact that mistweavers needed to be nerfed at that point too, but while I didn't agree with the "Sky is falling" people I was concerned that the people who said they'd still be fine were wrong as well. In the end, Blizzard threw two unannounced nerfs in on top of the announced nerfs, which were nearly as bad as they seemed.

    I know that they'll probably put many more changes in to disc before 5.2 actually releases, but I'm just as concerned after seeing their knee-jerk nerf reactions before that they're going to do it again to disc priests. I'd be perfectly happy if it was nerfed just down to the point where holy and disc were both viable choices and could both compete with other healing classes at a level where player skill would allow someone to perform better than simple class mechanics.

    I'd love to see more logs and math of people who are able to get some testing in on the PTR to make a more educated assessment of what disc might look like after this patch.

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