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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    Their design goal with all healers is obvious: they do not want healers blanketing a raid without a drawback. Let's look at some history:
    The design goal makes it easier to design raid encounters, and I welcome it.
    I agree with blanketing heals/absorbs not being a great mechanic - however, all healers atm have choices in aoe to fit the use of their spells around specific situations. Disc has 2 choices: poh on a party, regardless the fact that maybe only 3 ppl in a group took dmg, then 1 in another and 2 in another, and single target spells. I've head ppl talking about atonement as a raidheal: how can you consider a single target spell as a raidheal? Sure its stupid in gimick encounters, but we arent balanced around those. Every other healer has at least 2 aoe heals, and out of those, at least 1 is a smart heal. Disc has 0 aoe smart heals - cascade is not a smart heal, it will prefer a 95% person just because its further. They even had the spell at hand - holy nova, all it needed was a good original mechanic to differentiate it from coh.

    You have strong normal heals though? I previously mentioned PoH: it has the potential to push 80-100k hps, which is around 33-50%~ better than CH which can generate some 55-70k hps (depending on buffs, ES, RT etc). You have Atonement which is a very strong source of healing. I think Atonement is actually better than the Mistweaver Eminence, Atonement is a 1.5 sec GCD vs a 2 sec GCD (1 for Jab, 1 for TP). I really do think you should wait for some empirical evidence. Guilds will be testing the PTR tonight, and if Discipline Priests are inline with Resto Druids (who I think need more buffs) then I'll agree there's an issue. If however a Disc Priest is tied, or slightly below, a MW then I see no issues with that considering the amount of utility a Disc Priest brings.
    My poh, at my medium gear of almost 500 ilev is healing for 31 k per person. Assuming it will hit 5 ppl, thats a 155k heal, on a 2 sec cast, its 75k hps, not 100k. Is my gear too low? I dont know, do you think in the medium hc modes I'm doing 75k is enough, if I get a fully stacked raid to make my poh heal 5 ppl?

    Why do you think holy priests aren't pushing 100k hps usually? They have prayer of healing too, and unlike a non-DA disc poh, it benefits from chakra sanctuary and from mastery. Do you see holy priests destroying meters tho? PoH has the potential to do The current ptr iteration poh is basically an untalented spell. For disc, it gets no specific bonuses outside crits, and crit for us comes only from gear, like any other healer. No talent boosts it specifically for disc.

    As for atonement, I agree its a strong tool, but it's a lot stronger in 10 mans than in 25 mans, and 25 mans is what I play. Not considering gimick mechanics, its a 30-40k hit that heals for 40-50k. Sure I can rock meters in gimmick places, but what about normal ones? I dont especially want to be that broken toy in strange circumstances. And in a 25 man, its a drop in the ocean.

    Once again, I'm not complaining about the nerfs to absorbs, I think they are needed. I dont enjoy having other healers saying my absorbs win by default, and implying that without me "cheating" I wouldnt be worth a dime. I would actually enjoy winning fair and square. But I honestly dont think without absorbs disc has actual healing power. There is a reason why the specc was so shit starting mop: disc had absorbs then too. They just didnt shine until stupid amounts of predictable dmg as hof has, coupled with stupid buffs and gear scaling.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    Once again, I'm not complaining about the nerfs to absorbs, I think they are needed. I dont enjoy having other healers saying my absorbs win by default, and implying that without me "cheating" I wouldnt be worth a dime. I would actually enjoy winning fair and square. But I honestly dont think without absorbs disc has actual healing power. There is a reason why the specc was so shit starting mop: disc had absorbs then too. They just didnt shine until stupid amounts of predictable dmg as hof has, coupled with stupid buffs and gear scaling.
    It was more gear.

    A Disc Priest works similarly to a Brewmaster. A Brewmaster in 463 ilvl heroic blues has roughly 13% avoidance, 18% crit and 2-3k haste only. In this gear they are absolutely the worst tank ever. They're terrible. However, in 517 ilvl heroic epics a Brewmaster has roughly 32% avoidance, 36% crit and 5k haste. Now they become the best tanks. Similarly to Disc Priests, in bad gear your Rapture returns negative mana and in bad gear you can't blanket the raid. Even with a 30% DA the PoH from our Priests (going by Log Browser on Garalon kill last night) would be 13-15k. That's around 75k "healing" purely from the DA absorbs. In bad gear this would never happen.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by TaurenNinja View Post
    It's simple.
    Oversimplified, more likely. If it was that simple, we could delete all healers and play only disc priests, because no matter what, they will always be better.
    Absorption is always better than healing, because it increases the effective HP of the target.
    Even when - as you wrote - no encounter has mechanics that REQUIRE absorption, there are a lot of common situations where absorbs are far more helpful than a reactive heal after the damage came in. For example:
    - Player X (100k HP) gets hit for 50k by an unavoidable AoE ability from the boss. Then, that player does a movement fail and takes another 50k damage through his fail. If he had a shield on him, he would have survived that. And fails happen, even to top end players, they fail more rarely than most players (while performing better at the same time) but still do fail at times because it's close to impossible to get everything right on tough content for multiple hours long.
    And what do you do, shield 25 ppl in a raid just because one might trip in a fire? Mistakes happen, but classes aren't balanced around dps sitting in shit.
    How do you predict that a person will make a movement mistake and shield him?

    - Player X (100k HP) gets hit for 70k by whatever and there's even more damage coming in in 1-2 seconds. In panic, he immediately uses a self-heal cooldown, healthstone, some other defensive cooldown or whatever. Then he gets healed up by normal heals. Now if that player had shields on him, he wouldn't have dropped so low and wouldn't have had to waste his cooldowns already. And not just *his* cooldowns - the other healers are just as likely to use a big healing cooldown or mana-inefficient fast heal to get him up fast.
    - Last but not least, reducing the incoming damage helps to ease the stress for healers when big damage is coming in all the time in a progression raid

    There are probably more examples but these are common situations.
    But that person could also get instant heals from any other healer - any of them can do it, and I dont mean big cds. I'm not arguing the value of shields, I'm just arguing the oversimplified of them being ALWAYS better than heals. That is not true, sometimes they are better and sometimes then are the same and sometimes they are worse, because if you can always heal dmg that will happen, you can never shield dmg that already happened. Sure, I saved a fair few butts in my life with shields, but I dont think that utility is 10 times more valuable than stuff like mana tide or bop or combat ress. Remember disc has no useful raid buffs (stamina can be provided even by a scroll) other than a bit of dmg and absorbs.

    I'm yet to see a healer of any kind wanting to play a specc only to bring some gimick utility that is not normally needed, and sucking otherwise. I played disc at the start of cata and I played it in the start on MoP, and I've played it through good and bad times. Honestly, after trying for few raids at the beginning of mop, I just switched to holy, because the absorbs were not needed, and I could heal a ton more anyway as holy.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    It was more gear.

    A Disc Priest works similarly to a Brewmaster. A Brewmaster in 463 ilvl heroic blues has roughly 13% avoidance, 18% crit and 2-3k haste only. In this gear they are absolutely the worst tank ever. They're terrible. However, in 517 ilvl heroic epics a Brewmaster has roughly 32% avoidance, 36% crit and 5k haste. Now they become the best tanks. Similarly to Disc Priests, in bad gear your Rapture returns negative mana and in bad gear you can't blanket the raid. Even with a 30% DA the PoH from our Priests (going by Log Browser on Garalon kill last night) would be 13-15k. That's around 75k "healing" purely from the DA absorbs. In bad gear this would never happen.
    It wasn't *only* more gear though (or only the raid encounters are to blame, it's all at the same time).

    Rapture got buffed.
    DA got buffed from 30% to 50%. In 25s, disc priests have up to 40% healing from it, usually a bit lower.
    AA works with SS. That's 25% more healing if you aren't capping it like you might do in 10s.
    Inner Focus got buffed. A guaranteed crit can be used on SS/normal PoH.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by laplacedemon View Post
    It wasn't *only* more gear though (or only the raid encounters are to blame, it's all at the same time).

    Rapture got buffed.
    DA got buffed from 30% to 50%. In 25s, disc priests have up to 40% healing from it, usually a bit lower.
    AA works with SS. That's 25% more healing if you aren't capping it like you might do in 10s.
    Inner Focus got buffed. A guaranteed crit can be used on SS/normal PoH.
    That's my point. Even without the buffs in place, a 30% DA guaranteed on PoH as well the pre-buffed version of Rapture would still have resulted in Disc Priests being overpowered, probably not to the same extent as current but definitely enough to overshadow every other healer in the game no matter what fight, situation, or healing setup.

    These nerfs that are being done are being done because Blizzard want to remove the zero penalty DA blanketing that PoH has attached to it, mostly because it's mindless Mostly because cycling through groups 1-5, irrespective of raid damage, to blanket DA is not hard, complicated or (I imagine) fun.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by scandore8472 View Post
    Not exactly. They took PW:S raid healing from WotLK and DA stacking Cata, then mashed them together. Blizzard might have finally figured out how we can have our cake and eat it to by giving us two different shields that can be used to prevent raid damage. This allows us to blanket the raid with shields, without actually spamming the same spell over and over again. Now we will have a meaningful choice to make, do we use SS or PW:S? SS is good for big predictable damage, PW:S good for moderate predictable damage, and then atonement/PoH for healing the damage that SS/PW:S didn't catch.

    I'm actually kind of excited because I despise the current model of disc healing, as we are extremely inflexible. For some fights DA/SS make us gods, while other fights, DA/SS is borederline useless. This new design should hopefully fix that.
    Gotta agree with this.

    Just how I'm thinking. Will be a nice healing model for us, and much funnier at that too.

    -->> Rapture now reduces the cost of Power Word: Shield by 25% 50% and provides mana equal to 150% 250% (was 200%) of the Priest's Spirit, but no longer benefits from Spirit provided by short-duration bonuses. <<--

    How should I understand this I'm wondering from the many different replies here.. ?

  7. #67
    Don't forget the 20% (I think) buff to PoH and some pretty strong buff to Cascade.

    That's my point. Even without the buffs in place, a 30% DA guaranteed on PoH as well the pre-buffed version of Rapture would still have resulted in Disc Priests being overpowered, probably not to the same extent as current but definitely enough to overshadow every other healer in the game no matter what fight, situation, or healing setup.
    Then why weren't they? They had the same spirit shell in mop start, had 30% aegis too, and had inner focus granting a crit, just not working with spirit shell. I played disc: rapture at 150% was not enough, I was restoring more mana than any other healer and going oom faster than them. I switched to holy and it was a breeze, and I've been playing disc for 3-4 years now, I'm a bad holy priest. You say gear, well, all healers get gear. Rapture scaled well with spirit, sure, I still have 2 k more than our shamans. Sure, I got 30 more ilevels than I stepped foot in msv normal: but now I need to heal a lot more dmg than msv normal had too.

    It wasn't just the gear. It was stupid humongous buffs mostly. My gear didn't jump so much from one week to another, but my output increased visibly with 20% extra on poh/cascade, and skyrocketed when I got archangel/inner focus to work with SS, 50% aegis (from 30% thats almost double) and rapture increased.

    I'm not fussed about what specc I play - I enjoy disc more than holy but I dont enjoy sucking, so I wont grip a specc that just doesn't deliver. I'm not happy to return again to a holy/disc spec, I do enjoy to be able to do my dailies faster without needing to visit a trainer, but will do it nevertheless and have fun in whatever specc its better. I played beta on my priest, and I changed to holy for the last month, because it was obvious I will most likely need to play holy. I'm not one of those that go "omg sky falling" without a reason, but any disc worth his salt knows how much aegis is of his healing (in 25 mans, atonement is strong in 10 mans) and doesn't imagine it came from crits.

    -->> Rapture now reduces the cost of Power Word: Shield by 25% 50% and provides mana equal to 150% 250% (was 200%) of the Priest's Spirit, but no longer benefits from Spirit provided by short-duration bonuses. <<--
    I think the wowhead tooltip is clearer: its 50% mana reduction on shields, and 100% of spirit mana gained when it procs.

    About PWS, there's one more thing that changed from wrath, in cata: their duration got halved, from 30 seconds to 15.

    about the guy you quoted, PWS for moderate dmg? since when? even with 50% mana cost it will still be a 10k mana spell per pop.
    Last edited by Saphiramoon; 2013-01-17 at 05:43 PM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by wrynil View Post
    Gotta agree with this.
    -->> Rapture now reduces the cost of Power Word: Shield by 25% 50% and provides mana equal to 150% 250% (was 200%) of the Priest's Spirit, but no longer benefits from Spirit provided by short-duration bonuses. <<--

    How should I understand this I'm wondering from the many different replies here.. ?
    Rapture now reduces the cost of Power Word: Shield by 25% 50% and provides mana equal to 150% 250% (was 200%) of the Priest's Spirit, but no longer benefits from Spirit provided by short-duration bonuses.
    You see, there's this thing called "aggro". It's a very complicated, very technical roleplaying expression.
    Loosely translated, it means "the priest dies".

  9. #69
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    Oversimplified, more likely. If it was that simple, we could delete all healers and play only disc priests, because no matter what, they will always be better.
    Not so sure. Disc isn't good enough for some tasks, and the other healers bring different but also valuable cooldowns. And some things override each other so it doesn't make sense to stack one healer class. It's usually beneficial to have a wide variety of healing spells in your raid so you have an answer for every situation. Also you need to heal up a raid from low HP after big damage came in and Disc is worse/slower at that compared to other healers. Having a Disc is, after all, no guarantee that no one will ever drop low. They will, and then they need those massive heals which Disc doesn't really provide.

    And what do you do, shield 25 ppl in a raid just because one might trip in a fire? Mistakes happen, but classes aren't balanced around dps sitting in shit.
    How do you predict that a person will make a movement mistake and shield him?
    Nah. This is more about luck situations. Rarely you're able to see in advance if someone does a movement mistake. But if he already had a shield on him because of something else before that, he would have the luxury of taking less damage from his fail. Sure, it's often not planned in advance when that happens. But it happens, and then it's helpful.

    In any case, the changes to Disc are good. We shouldn't top all other healers in output, and we also shouldn't do most of our HPS via SS and PoH spam. Priest should be a versatile healing class and so we need a stronger Penance and PW:S, at least.
    But those changes should have already occured in 5.1. Blizzard is slow, as usual. They deliver the good stuff, but it takes quite a while sometimes.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Muoteck View Post
    Rapture now reduces the cost of Power Word: Shield by 25% 50% and provides mana equal to 150% 250% (was 200%) of the Priest's Spirit, but no longer benefits from Spirit provided by short-duration bonuses.
    If this is the case then Im not sure how its a buff on pw:s .. how should we use it more due to this?

  11. #71
    At the moment (which could still change) Rapture provides a 25% cheaper Power Word: Shield and a 150% mana return on a Power Word: Shield. When we tried PW:S at 50%, it became too efficient to use nothing but PW:S. We aren't trying to kill PoH use completely, just shift to a balance where PW:S and SS are used for absorbs, and PoH is used for healing. Yes, Disc PoH will be weaker than Holy PoH, but that is offset by the incredible benefit brought by absorbs. Please don't interpret this as "Because absorbs are so good and because absorbs are my thing, it is a design failure if I ever cast an actual heal."
    - GC

    Don't know how you can disagree with this post. He's right on the mark. Healing and Absorbs shouldn't be tied unless through a proc, so you may get lucky and have PoH crit on all 5 targets and thus proc DA, but it shouldn't be a consistency that turns a cool mechanic into an overpowered one.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrynil View Post
    If this is the case then Im not sure how its a buff on pw:s .. how should we use it more due to this?
    Cutting the mana cost in half doubles its efficiency making it far more desirable to cast.

  13. #73
    Don't know how you can disagree with this post. He's right on the mark. Healing and Absorbs shouldn't be tied unless through a proc, so you may get lucky and have PoH crit on all 5 targets and thus proc DA, but it shouldn't be a consistency that turns a cool mechanic into an overpowered one.
    Disc PoH will be weaker than holy PoH, when in addition holy also has CoH, a better PoM via DI and lightwell, and if shit hits the fan, also DH. I'm oki to unbind PoH and DA, but disc needs something in return in actual healing to offset a basically 50% nerf on poh.
    Single target absorbs might make a difference in 10 mans, but not in 25 mans, and I find reverting to PWS spam for raidhealing an incredible boring idea. Spirit Shell is getting nerfed twice: once by not benefitting from mastery (turning disc mastery into a bad joke with the removal of PoH da too), and twice from not benefiting from DA - which was announced to "properly benefit" SS to counter the mastery change. Spirit Shell is good for one thing and one thing only: predictable raidwide aoe. Outside these encounters, disc is a holy priest with shittier spells and a no-cd PWS.

  14. #74
    Alright, fine. Make it a choice between healing and absorbs, but at least bump up PoH's actual healing for us, then. It's a huge nerf to the only real AoE healing we have that isn't on a cooldown (Cascade, PoM).

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Chimaera View Post
    Cutting the mana cost in half doubles its efficiency making it far more desirable to cast.
    25% is not half and with the nerf to rapture it wont give near enough mana.. 150% and not with shortterm mana bonuss?

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrynil View Post
    25% is not half and with the nerf to rapture it wont give near enough mana.. 150% and not with shortterm mana bonuss?
    The tooltip was showing a 50% reduction when I looked. Maybe that has changed since but it does not change the basis for why you have more reason to cast power word: shield with a mana cost reduction compared to live.

  17. #77
    What if they nerf PoH DA to 0%, but allow it to stack grace? That sounds semi-reasonable to me...

  18. #78
    Fine with the changes, just give us something to AOE heal that is not PoH and doesn't rape my mana bar.

    Less proactive, and more reactive. I'd be ok with that if they actually let us be reactive.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by simland View Post
    Fine with the changes, just give us something to AOE heal that is not PoH and doesn't rape my mana bar.

    Less proactive, and more reactive. I'd be ok with that if they actually let us be reactive.
    Sounds like a holy priest

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Meaks View Post
    Sounds like a holy priest
    Disc since WOTLK Naxx 25. My ire has been pointed in no particular order: Paladins, Druids, Shamans, Mistweavers, Developers (for bubble spam).

    I have end game raided as Disc, Holy, and Resto Druid. Have an 85 pally who hasn't step into raids yet. So :-P.

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