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  1. #81
    So I wonder when they're going to actually give Discipline some AoE healing, seeing how they just obliterated it

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Penguintamer View Post
    So I wonder when they're going to actually give Discipline some AoE healing, seeing how they just obliterated it
    another expansion they said. Forever in the darkness we will be, after one moment of shining through xD

  3. #83
    I think I like the way Blizzard seems to be thinking for Disc, just need them to get the numbers straight. We still have a decent toolkit, Atonement is fun times in anything sub-HM, and the changes point to a more variety playstyle. If Rapture was a set at a percent of max mana instead of keying off of Spirit it will be good

  4. #84
    I welcome these changes.

    However, I'm not sure they are so smart. Problem with disc is it's OP AND boring.

    Change to PoH adresses that. With less mindless PoH spamming and intentional PoH overhealing for DA stacking. Penance buff is great btw.

    However, some problems remains and it problably creates others issues. Disc will still be boring. They have to do something about Holy Nova concerning this.
    Also, I think that a big part of disc problems (OPness and boringness) is Spirit Shell. A lot of people were very happy to see it happen. Some requested this for some time, but all it really does is allow us to bypass some fight mechanics by pre-spamming, which is not so cool. Pre-shielding, while boring and dumb too, is a lesser evil in that regard.

    Finally, I do hope those changes will bring back the spot light on holy, which has become a very fun spec to play. The priest has this opportunity to have 2 healing specs and I'd be glad if they took some time while disc is broken and holy more or less fine to rework disc. One way of doing that is adding a cool mechanic via Holy Nova IMO.

  5. #85
    While I'm not sure I agree with the nerf to DA on PoH, I can definitely see how they would have to do something or they basically can't design fights with a lull in the damage or disc gets too far ahead. I feel like whatever they do will result in a change in playstyle with disc. I'm pretty glad about this because I love the priest toolkit and it sucks to basically spam one spell continuously. I'm not sure if they've gone totally overboard or not though, that's yet to be seen.

    Also, if the changes to smoke bomb go live, disc's PW:B won't be as needed in situations where there are rogues to provide a CD that's almost as good. Not a direct nerf, but it certainly makes it so that the first healing priest in every raid isn't virtually required to be disc.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    about the guy you quoted, PWS for moderate dmg? since when? even with 50% mana cost it will still be a 10k mana spell per pop.
    With inner will, it drops to 8500 mana; inner will + PI drops it to 6800 mana. At that cost, it's makes intelligent pre-shielding more than feasible. The keyword here is intelligent use.

  7. #87
    What they should do is have our Level 90 Talent provide a guaranteed DA and also work with Spirit Shell, and have the 50% reduced mana cost while SS is active like Flash Heal. They all have a cooldown, and it may even help achieve Blizzard's design goal to give us more incentive to pick the best talent for the fight. For example, i never use Halo. It is way too expensive, on too long of a cooldown, and has difficult positioning requirements. But if you could SS-Halo, that would provide a raid-shield versus a raid-heal, something that we could improve with our mastery since DA would be added, but we could only do it once per SS phase. It also fits Disc well since we could decide whether to use our lvl 90 talent prior to damage to shield, or after damage to heal. I really think it would make Disc more interesting rather than forcing us into the old PWS spam, something they were so against and we know as soon as we do it they are just going to go back to not liking us doing that either. Make our level 90 talent something more strategic and less fire on cooldown and forget.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinn View Post
    Finally, I do hope those changes will bring back the spot light on holy, which has become a very fun spec to play. The priest has this opportunity to have 2 healing specs and I'd be glad if they took some time while disc is broken and holy more or less fine to rework disc. One way of doing that is adding a cool mechanic via Holy Nova IMO.
    The only thing spotlight on Holy will do right now is show how bad the spec is. It is fighting with Resto Druids for last place right now, and Holy isn't getting a straight up 10% healing buff next patch, nor is it getting better mushroom healing.

    Some people need to realize this: Disc is overpowered, yes. Holy is underpowered. Priests go Disc because it is overpowered, but if Disc is nerfed too hard, we will have 2 underpowered specs. Holy isn't waiting in the background for the spotlight. It's not middle of the pack, but overshone but Disc. It's bad. It's not criminally awful bad, but with Resto Druid buffs next patch, it will be the worst healer spec of them all. I doubt Disc will fall to that level, but just realize that Holy isn't there to catch us if Disc falls.

  9. #89
    With inner will, it drops to 8500 mana; inner will + PI drops it to 6800 mana. At that cost, it's makes intelligent pre-shielding more than feasible. The keyword here is intelligent use.
    There is no real way to intelligently aoe in a 25 man using a single target spell imo, not with blizzard making most predictable dmg also raid wide. The only time you have 1-5 target dmg in a raid, it is random targetted. The only class atm that doesn't have a spamable aoe heal is resto druid - they are also supposed to rely on reju - a single target spell, for raid healing, and look where they are. On top of this, they do have WG, mushrooms, efflorescence and tranq if shit hits the fan.

    The nerf to DA is an aoe healing one. The buff to PWS is an 1-5 targets buff. Even at 8.5k mana, which only happens for 20 seconds every 2 minutes and at the cost of a large chunk of spell power, shielding a party is still gonna cost over 40k mana. I know the current cost of PoH is ridiculously low, but from 13k to 42k its a long way. Shielding 5 ppl would also cost 6 seconds, compared to 2 sec poh cast. So, not only its more expensive, its also extremely slow. The reduced 15 seconds duration of shields also doesn't leave you with a lot of room to risk spending mana on something that might or might not happen, because while most of the dmg is meant to be healed/healable in this game, most of it is not meant to need an absorb.

    I think PWS spam will have similar output with poh spam, with the difference that one is a normal heal that can be balanced around others heals and one is an absorb that will be underpowered in some encounters, overpowered in others, and overall a pain in the ass to balance.

    I think in order to properly balance disc, they should move a bit away from absorbs and more into heals. It's all good to be able to mitigate dmg, as a specc specific, its another way to put utility+healing on meters on the same balance with other healers only healing. Utilities should be compared with other utilities, not with healing. I do see a reason for holy priests, resto druid and mistweaver monks to be higher than disc, but I dont see a reason for shamans and palas to be. You cant make a healer's toolkit be 80% absorbs and then say absorbs are an utility and therefor stronger than healing in all cases. Nobody ever liked to be only the utility healer. I'd also prefer them rather giving utility to those classes/speccs that miss it, and have healers balanced around utility vs utility and healing vs healing. Sure, utility can be a strong thing, but when , in the case of disc, you spend half of your time casting utility, its not a simple "be there,waste a gcd" bonus, like mana tide or bloodlust is.

    I am aware that for those fights where absorbs wont be a really needed and powerful thing, I'll spec holy. Still, priests are the only class that seem to need to have 2 speccs to cover all fights. Nobody can force a mistweaver to bring more utility, and nobody can force a shaman to bring more healing.
    Last edited by Saphiramoon; 2013-01-18 at 08:35 AM.

  10. #90
    Holy isn't as bad as resto Druids at all. If you look at raidbots and show each fight in t14, holy performs just as well as Resto Shaman, Holy Pallies and Mistweavers on a large majority of fights even despite the number of Holy Priests (and good ones at that) not actually parsing because Discipline is better. Saying Holy is the worst healing spec in the game is flat out wrong, in the night phase on Tsulong heroic our Priests (who all spec Holy) can each achieve 100k+ hps while Mistweavers are generally at 110k~ hps and Paladins, Shaman and Druids are all below 60-70k hps.

    Now, onto 5.2 Discipline. The spec is still strong and still viable. Testing alone shows that. Blood Legion's Disc Priest was still 10% above Affiniti, and our Disc Priest was 5% above both the Paladin and I (in our setup). The fight, while buggy, still shows how a good Disc Priest (being able to adapt) can stay strong. There is nothing to worry about, really. Our Disc Priest said it felt more engaging too, and he felt more purposeful being there for more than SS + POH.

  11. #91
    Moderator Rivelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    Holy isn't as bad as resto Druids at all. If you look at raidbots and show each fight in t14, holy performs just as well as Resto Shaman, Holy Pallies and Mistweavers on a large majority of fights even despite the number of Holy Priests (and good ones at that) not actually parsing because Discipline is better. Saying Holy is the worst healing spec in the game is flat out wrong, in the night phase on Tsulong heroic our Priests (who all spec Holy) can each achieve 100k+ hps while Mistweavers are generally at 110k~ hps and Paladins, Shaman and Druids are all below 60-70k hps.

    Now, onto 5.2 Discipline. The spec is still strong and still viable. Testing alone shows that. Blood Legion's Disc Priest was still 10% above Affiniti, and our Disc Priest was 5% above both the Paladin and I (in our setup). The fight, while buggy, still shows how a good Disc Priest (being able to adapt) can stay strong. There is nothing to worry about, really. Our Disc Priest said it felt more engaging too, and he felt more purposeful being there for more than SS + POH.
    I'm very glad to hear that. I'm sure Blizzard will make several more changes before the patch goes live but it's nice to know the changes aren't absolutely killing the spec as they are right now.

    I'm curious if you have any information about any changes in spell usage or reforges that your priests might have been using in the PTR raids.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Penguintamer View Post
    So I wonder when they're going to actually give Discipline some AoE healing, seeing how they just obliterated it
    They'll probably eventually make PoH a smart heal. There's not much reason not to do that. The impact on how holy priests actually play would be pretty minimal as long as CoH's numbers were tuned such that it remained worth casting on cooldown. Whether or not PoH is smart will have little impact on when holy priests cast it, given the rest of their toolkit. And PoH could revert to a dumb heal when Spirit Shell was active, so this change wouldn't impact disc either beyond giving it a way to heal damage that's multitarget but not raid wide.

    The reason that PoH hasn't been made smart yet is probably that it would mean that disc priests would do most of their raid healing through healing rather than through absorbs. But Blizzard has pretty much admitted defeat on balancing absorbs by eliminating PoH's auto-DA anyway, so it's probably just a matter of time now.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    Now, onto 5.2 Discipline. The spec is still strong and still viable. Testing alone shows that. Blood Legion's Disc Priest was still 10% above Affiniti, and our Disc Priest was 5% above both the Paladin and I (in our setup). The fight, while buggy, still shows how a good Disc Priest (being able to adapt) can stay strong. There is nothing to worry about, really. Our Disc Priest said it felt more engaging too, and he felt more purposeful being there for more than SS + POH.
    I assume the testing happened in 10 man? I doubt the nerf of aegis will hurt 10 mans that much, given the possibility of actually raidhealing with pws/penance in a setup where a single target spells lands on 10% of your team, compared to 2.5% in 25 man. SS nerf wont even touch 10 mans, since they were capping it anyway due to only 2 groups.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    I assume the testing happened in 10 man? I doubt the nerf of aegis will hurt 10 mans that much, given the possibility of actually raidhealing with pws/penance in a setup where a single target spells lands on 10% of your team, compared to 2.5% in 25 man. SS nerf wont even touch 10 mans, since they were capping it anyway due to only 2 groups.
    Yeah, the testing took place in 10 man. Priests seemed mostly concerned about 10 man viability though because, as we all know and admit, in 25 man discipline is around 15-25% ahead of every other healer. The healing breakdown most of the time went something like: SS (20-25%) > PW:S (20-25%) > DA (20% > PoH / PoM / Cascade / Atonement making up the rest. I think the nerfs put Discipline in a good overall spot personally - the changes indirectly buff MW and Resto Druids (which was apparent from all our logs last night) but also shows how Discipline can still be a worthwhile raid spot. I understand it's PTR testing and most of the fight was buggy (2 people guaranteed to die in p2). Perhaps I'm wrong, but Discipline is still in a very strong spot even after these changes; this much is clear from logs and testing analysis last night.

  15. #95
    Am I the only disc priest who is a little concerned about the removal of the group binding effect on Prayer of Healing? Marking it a smart heal would further remove our ability to use Spirit Shell before a damage spike comes out because we cannot control who gets the heal. It would be good for holy and for non-Spirit Shell moments but I guess it would encourage people to use more Greater Heals/Flash Heals during spirit shell xD

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Sevyvia View Post
    The only thing spotlight on Holy will do right now is show how bad the spec is. It is fighting with Resto Druids for last place right now, and Holy isn't getting a straight up 10% healing buff next patch, nor is it getting better mushroom healing.

    Some people need to realize this: Disc is overpowered, yes. Holy is underpowered. Priests go Disc because it is overpowered, but if Disc is nerfed too hard, we will have 2 underpowered specs. Holy isn't waiting in the background for the spotlight. It's not middle of the pack, but overshone but Disc. It's bad. It's not criminally awful bad, but with Resto Druid buffs next patch, it will be the worst healer spec of them all. I doubt Disc will fall to that level, but just realize that Holy isn't there to catch us if Disc falls.
    I don't think holy is in such a bad shape. Only in comparison with disc and maybe other specs, but minor tweaks (not fondamental gameplay ones) could fix it easily. And most importantly, it's very fun to play while disc is not. It would be cool to have the funniest healing spec (we are the only ones to have 2 healing specs) to be the better one, which it hasn't been for a while. Also, if disc sucked and holy was fine, it would give them time to revamp disc, a spec which needs it a lot (DA was brought in because disc was broken at one time and now they get rid of it without really giving us an alternative for good and non-one-button-spamming aoe healing).

    One of the problems is that a spec which relies heavily on absorbs (which some would argue is a superior form of healing because if played properly it is preventive instead of reactive) is very hard to balance compared to others specs. In that respec, spirit shell only brought light on this and made it worst. I don't think it's a good design having us be very good in preventing damage but sucking at getting people back up. There has to be some balance and the nerf to PoH is probably in that line, even if some other changes are and will be needed.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by vanityking View Post
    Am I the only disc priest who is a little concerned about the removal of the group binding effect on Prayer of Healing? Marking it a smart heal would further remove our ability to use Spirit Shell before a damage spike comes out because we cannot control who gets the heal. It would be good for holy and for non-Spirit Shell moments but I guess it would encourage people to use more Greater Heals/Flash Heals during spirit shell xD
    I think this would be the intent. Blizzard seems to be killing "blanket" abilities, so the tactic would be to pre-PW:S a couple of critical targets followed by joining the normal recovery healing push everyone else does. Depending on how good Blizzard is at writing "smart" into the spell (and they ARE good), it could track in shielded targets during SS

  18. #98
    Yeah, the testing took place in 10 man. Priests seemed mostly concerned about 10 man viability though because, as we all know and admit, in 25 man discipline is around 15-25% ahead of every other healer. The healing breakdown most of the time went something like: SS (20-25%) > PW:S (20-25%) > DA (20% > PoH / PoM / Cascade / Atonement making up the rest. I think the nerfs put Discipline in a good overall spot personally - the changes indirectly buff MW and Resto Druids (which was apparent from all our logs last night) but also shows how Discipline can still be a worthwhile raid spot. I understand it's PTR testing and most of the fight was buggy (2 people guaranteed to die in p2). Perhaps I'm wrong, but Discipline is still in a very strong spot even after these changes; this much is clear from logs and testing analysis last night.
    Depends where do you get the 20-25% ahead of other healers part: if its from top wol parses, I'm not sure those are the best way to gauge class balance, and we all know how ranks can be "orchestrated".

    After taking a look at wol, disc is away from the other healers with anything between 10-30% - depending on the fight and what class its compared to, 30% being usually compared to resto druids/holy priests. Aegis is about 20-25% of 25 man healing, and 90% of it comes from poh - so that's a 15-20% nerf . Spirit shell is 20-30%, not scaling with mastery anymore will be an @10% nerf. In total we are looking at a 25-30% nerf, which will put disc lower than resto druids are now - and they are getting buffed. You will say that we can cast PWS more, but disc is already constantly casting, any additional PWS will have to be cast at the expense of something else, so it wont be an increase, more a trade-off. We have spirit shell once a minute, whats the incentive to pre-shield for more than that?

    I also personally dont feel attracted towards stacking crit in order to make my mastery work. It might look nice on the mters but its never been a healer great stat, not without some specc synergy to make it reliable. In order to use shields efficiently, they need to be timed, and you cant time a crit. Random shields=most likely useless shields.

    Ofc none of this addresses holy issue - which lags behind around the same numbers resto druids pull generally, but they dont seem to be getting any buffs.

    And most importantly, it's very fun to play while disc is not.
    And most importantly, this is your personal opinion . For me, holy is a bland and boring specc. I played it in tbc, and played it half of wrath. I can play it and have myself amused with it while disc is getting fixed (always happens) but as soon as I have the choice, I'll prefer disc.

    But I agree with you that holy does need some love. I just wish sometimes that holy priests would start argumenting in the form of "holy feels week because x,y,z and should be fixed" instead of "I dont want to play disc because its boring". You can actually deffend your own specc without throwing mud on others.
    Last edited by Saphiramoon; 2013-01-18 at 04:51 PM.

  19. #99
    You're over exaggerating the nerfs Saphiramoon, honestly. Disc will still be strong and viable in 5.2. They just wont make every other healer feel useless. That's all.

  20. #100
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    I really really don't understand people saying how bad Holy is. Sure, we have more struggles with mana than other classes but it also greatly rewards smart play. This is just one log, Heroic Sha: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7180&e=8075 I mean.. I don't see what you're saying at all. Please enlighten me.

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