Disc 5.2 Nerf Discussion

[Saphiramoon]

You're over exaggerating the nerfs Saphiramoon, honestly. Disc will still be strong and viable in 5.2. They just wont make every other healer feel useless. That's all.

Last time I got told that was in beta MoP, it didn't turn out that good. I wouldn't mind being wrong really. I know where disc shines and what % of "cheating" top parses imply. I have a strong suspicion most ppl judge disc numbers in comparison with today's encounters and top parses. Disc looked fine in DS too post patch. Sure level 85/90 makes the whole thing a different story, but I'd rather not judge disc in farm mode encounters environment, and that is what top parses are.

I really really don't understand people saying how bad Holy is. Sure, we have more struggles with mana than other classes but it also greatly rewards smart play. This is just one log, Heroic Sha: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7180&e=8075 I mean.. I don't see what you're saying at all. Please enlighten me.

If wol top parses show the maximum potential of a class, when judging top holy priests compared to top other classes, holy priests do fall behind. Sure, at a medium level, personal skill can soften the edges, and you wont need top world performance to beat an encounter, unless you're in top guilds that need to defeat encounters without a lot of gear. Top disc priest on sha is pulling 76k hps, while top holy priest is pulling 53k: at that level, both have equal skills/gear, so the difference comes from class/specc. Sure bosses still die without needing a disc priest, but doesn't change the fact that a bigger hammer is making things easier.

[Mazi]

If wol top parses show the maximum potential of a class, when judging top holy priests compared to top other classes, holy priests do fall behind. Sure, at a medium level, personal skill can soften the edges, and you wont need top world performance to beat an encounter, unless you're in top guilds that need to defeat encounters without a lot of gear. Top disc priest on sha is pulling 76k hps, while top holy priest is pulling 53k: at that level, both have equal skills/gear, so the difference comes from class/specc. Sure bosses still die without needing a disc priest, but doesn't change the fact that a bigger hammer is making things easier.

What I said had nothing to do with Disc nor Disc nerfs (despite being in this thread) rather at the comments people saying that Holy is garbage.

[HolyLathusDisc]

Mazi... I just noticed ur on area 52 :x

It's good to see top tier raiders saying holy is fine. Holy has always been fine, you just have to know how to play it

[Saphiramoon]

What I said had nothing to do with Disc nor Disc nerfs (despite being in this thread) rather at the comments people saying that Holy is garbage.

Compared to other healers (not only disc), it kinda is. Sure, not at the middle range, mostly at the top range, but they are weaker than other healers according to parses.
Doesn't mean holy is unplayable or useless, its just weaker in comparison.

[Mazi]

Mazi... I just noticed ur on area 52 :x

It's good to see top tier raiders saying holy is fine. Holy has always been fine, you just have to know how to play it

Yeah I just transferred Tuesday

Holy is fine. It's not easy to play, but it's a ton of fun and very rewarding. I do wish we had more utility.. Derevka said changing HWSanc to reduce magic damage taken by 10% or something like that.. would be nice.

[Manamontana]

Compared to other healers (not only disc), it kinda is. Sure, not at the middle range, mostly at the top range, but they are weaker than other healers according to parses.
Doesn't mean holy is unplayable or useless, its just weaker in comparison.

It's not weaker though. It's definitely competitive. On any fight Holy sucks it's mostly because it's purpose (raw hps) is sucked up by a Disc Priest. Take Vizier, Windlord or Empress as prime examples. Holy can't shine in that fight (like Resto Shaman pretty much) due to Disc Priests killing the need for pure throughput. This'll change in 5.2. 5.2 is going to make every healer stronger naturally while at the same time nerfing Discs down a bit. HoT classes (Resto Druids/MW) will flourish under the changes (I think MWs will be the #1 healer again followed closely by Pallies/Druids) and throughput classes (Resto Shaman/Holy Priests) will be stronger too.

Yeah I just transferred Tuesday

Holy is fine. It's not easy to play, but it's a ton of fun and very rewarding. I do wish we had more utility.. Derevka said changing HWSanc to reduce magic damage taken by 10% or something like that.. would be nice.

I fail to see the need? Holy has 1 raid CD, 1 tank CD. Mistweavers have 1 raid CD, 1 tank CD. Resto Druids have 1 raid CD, 1 tank CD. Resto Shaman have 3 (2?) raid CDs, 0 tank CDs. Paladins have 1 raid CD, 1 tank CD. Disc Priests have 1 raid CD, 1 tank CD. I don't even understand the complaints regarding mana personally. Holy is in no worse position than Shamans, Druids, Monks etc when it comes to mana. The only classes which seem to have unlimited mana are Paladins (I think by design personally) and Discipline Priests (because Rapture is stupid).

[Mazi]

Compared to other healers (not only disc), it kinda is. Sure, not at the middle range, mostly at the top range, but they are weaker than other healers according to parses.
Doesn't mean holy is unplayable or useless, its just weaker in comparison.

Compared to other healers it is not. It's a much more difficult spec to play due to mana restraints, but that doesn't mean it's garbage and doesn't bring high HPS to the table. The current issue with looking at parses is that most of the best priests are playing Disc, so your logs are seeing only the priests that aren't as talented.

Disc also reduces the amount of healing all other healers can output. My parses are on par or higher than other healing classes when we have no Disc priest. Disc is unbalancing everything.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111 The sample number for holy is very low here as well... because most are Disc

[Venaliter]

What I said had nothing to do with Disc nor Disc nerfs (despite being in this thread) rather at the comments people saying that Holy is garbage.

Holy isn't precisely garbage. It's numbers are fine. It just lacks mana and a reason to be brought over another class of healer.

Mazi... Holy has always been fine, you just have to know how to play it

Yes,,,and no. It lacked a raid CD for awhile.

It's not weaker though. It's definitely competitive. On any fight Holy sucks it's mostly because it's purpose (raw hps) is sucked up by a Disc Priest.

Holy's HPS is the same as most every other healers. They just can't do it for as long or flexibly as the other healers. Also, their lack of utility.

I fail to see the need?

It's there. Shamans have mana tide and Ancestral Fort and Bloodlust. Paladins have beacon, hands. Druids struggle too; Rebirth being made more available really hurt them. It's no coincidence Druids and Holy Priests are the least common healers right now.

It's a much more difficult spec to play due to mana restraints, but that doesn't mean it's garbage

No, Holy isnt garbage, it's just a) not as good as disc b) lacking utility and c) Chakra's limitations.

[Manamontana]

Holy's HPS is the same as most every other healers. They just can't do it for as long or flexibly as the other healers. Also, their lack of utility. It's there. Shamans have mana tide and Ancestral Fort and Bloodlust. Paladins have beacon, hands. Druids struggle too; Rebirth being made more available really hurt them. It's no coincidence Druids and Holy Priests are the least common healers right now. No, Holy isnt garbage, it's just a) not as good as disc b) lacking utility and c) Chakra's limitations.

Again this makes no sense. If Holy Priests are the least common healers because they lack utility however Mistweavers are so prevalent? MW and Holy can pull the same HPS, except Holy actually has a powerful raid CD (Hymn) over Monks (Revival is terrible) and their tank CDs are largely similar (but absorption > GS imo). If Holy was uncommon because it lacks utility, then so would MWs. This isn't the case though. It's the same for Resto Druids. They aren't taken because their healing is completely terrible. There's nothing more to it. Holy isn't represented because of Discipline, and that's the end of that argument. Holy does not need any buffs (maybe a change to Chakra limitations).

[Fenixdown]

Divine Aegis is no longer guaranteed when Prayer of Healing is cast. The effect now procs when the spell crits.

SMART CHANGES? dont make me wrong but this change will gonna destroy our HPS so badly... For me this is the majore nerf and I didnt expect it. Bye full mastery itemization.

Okay, I'm sorry, but how is this bad, exactly? You stacked one stat, spammed one spell, and made pretty much every single raidwide AoE ability in the game a complete and utter joke.

Removing that playstyle isn't bad for anyone.

[Meaks]

This'll change in 5.2. 5.2 is going to make every healer stronger naturally while at the same time nerfing Discs down a bit. HoT classes (Resto Druids/MW) will flourish under the changes (I think MWs will be the #1 healer again followed closely by Pallies/Druids) and throughput classes (Resto Shaman/Holy Priests) will be stronger too.

You've mentioned this idea multiple times on this forum, and others have as well, and it is a fallacy.
Spec strength != position on meters currently.
Nerfing disc does absolutely nothing in making another healer stronger. It may APPEAR that way on meters, but we all know that that is fairly irrelevant.
If anything, nerfing disc would hurt other healers ability to perform as they may be forced to use more inefficient heals to make up for discs newfound lack of throughput. Now if resto druids had a mechanic that straight up punished them for overhealing, like say for every HoT tick that overheals you lose additional mana, THEN you might have a point. But that'd be a dumb mechanic and it does not exist.

You claim resto druids will be buffed by discs nerfs -- this makes no sense. Druids may do less healing on a meter due to absorbs, but they won't magically become better healers when those shields are gone. Sure their meter numbers may go up some, but who cares if they are still weak? (This is sort of moot as they are getting a band-aid 10% flat buff). Plenty of 10man raids have no disc priest, and guess what, the weak classes are still weak.

If all you care about is healing meters, uncheck "include absorbs." A healer's job is not to put out the highest number possible on recount/skada/WoL. It's to keep his raid alive/help kill the boss.

[HolyLathusDisc]

Holy isn't precisely garbage. It's numbers are fine. It just lacks mana and a reason to be brought over another class of healer.



Yes,,,and no. It lacked a raid CD for awhile.



Holy's HPS is the same as most every other healers. They just can't do it for as long or flexibly as the other healers. Also, their lack of utility.
It's there. Shamans have mana tide and Ancestral Fort and Bloodlust. Paladins have beacon, hands. Druids struggle too; Rebirth being made more available really hurt them. It's no coincidence Druids and Holy Priests are the least common healers right now.

No, Holy isnt garbage, it's just a) not as good as disc b) lacking utility and c) Chakra's limitations.

1) It does not lack mana regen to be brought over another healer, if you know how to play and cast properly[without spamming] your regen is perfectly fine. On top of other regen sources: Mana Tide, Shadowfiend/bender, innervates, hymns... on top of pots/selective casting, solace ect ect.. the list goes on..

2) It has had divine hymn since WoTLK.... when did it ever lack a raid CD?

3) Holy can sustain HPS very well actually with mastery stacking. Upwards of 100k HPS on some bosses when played right.

4) Priests have binding heal, PoM, CoH, hymnx2, some of the most consistant AOE healing abilites on top of mobility via feathers/body and soul/life grip, guardian spirit, Spirit of redemption... divine insight, power infusion.... hmmmmm..... You can't really think holy has only PoH...

5) Holy IS better then disc at RAW HPS. Disc has too much power in the absorb field, it's been noted by blizzard, players, and just about anyone. Holy competes perfectly FINE with any other healing class. Disc just makes fights EASIER FOR PROGRESSION PURPOSES.

[Saphiramoon]

It has had divine hymn since WoTLK.... when did it ever lack a raid CD?

No offense, but until DS, holy divine hymn had 8 mins cd and was worse hps than poh spam. It was cheaper tho. A raid cd that does less than your normal rotation?

4) Priests have binding heal, PoM, CoH, hymnx2, some of the most consistant AOE healing abilites on top of mobility via feathers/body and soul/life grip, guardian spirit, Spirit of redemption... divine insight, power infusion.... hmmmmm..... You can't really think holy has only PoH...

He was talking about utility. What you listed are a bunch of holy spells that disc has too (replace coh with penance, guardian spirit with pain supp and divine hymn with barrier). Yays for Spirit of Redemption .

If you guys are happy with where holy is, that's cool. I'm sure the good holy priests will always get a raid spot. I'm wondering how many of the mediocre ones will tho, when they wont have disc to fall back onto. You can argue as much as you want about holy numbers being fine, just lacking the mana and not much utility - the fact remains, that a oom healer is a useless healer.

[HolyLathusDisc]

No offense, but until DS, holy divine hymn had 8 mins cd and was worse hps than poh spam. It was cheaper tho. A raid cd that does less than your normal rotation?



He was talking about utility. What you listed are a bunch of holy spells that disc has too (replace coh with penance, guardian spirit with pain supp and divine hymn with barrier). Yays for Spirit of Redemption .

If you guys are happy with where holy is, that's cool. I'm sure the good holy priests will always get a raid spot. I'm wondering how many of the mediocre ones will tho, when they wont have disc to fall back onto. You can argue as much as you want about holy numbers being fine, just lacking the mana and not much utility - the fact remains, that a oom healer is a useless healer.

Utility is more then just raid cooldowns dude.


Mobility + how many targets you can heal with a single spell. Utility is having a bag of tools you can dip into for a VARIETY of situations and all can be 100% effective.

As far as divine hymn, it's always been a perfectly fine raid CD.... in WoTLK it came out as completley overpowered, then got nerfed but was still good. In cata, I used it as holy just as much as barrier as disc in heroic content..


The problem with holy, is people have NO Idea what they are doing when they play it...

[shise]

The prayer of healing nerf is going to destroy us lol

I played my priest for 5 years. The class has never been bad, in fact, it has been the same for the last 5 years.

Healing is pretty much about the player. Of course some thigns can screw the class, but still, even a nerfed to the stone class can be carried up by the player. It's not like a DPS with no damage source or a tank with no thread, a healer is about placing green numbers.


In my opinion all changes in healers are always good, nerfs and buffs, it only gives fun to the player.

[Blergy]

1) It does not lack mana regen to be brought over another healer, if you know how to play and cast properly[without spamming] your regen is perfectly fine. On top of other regen sources: Mana Tide, Shadowfiend/bender, innervates, hymns... on top of pots/selective casting, solace ect ect.. the list goes on..

2) It has had divine hymn since WoTLK.... when did it ever lack a raid CD?

3) Holy can sustain HPS very well actually with mastery stacking. Upwards of 100k HPS on some bosses when played right.

4) Priests have binding heal, PoM, CoH, hymnx2, some of the most consistant AOE healing abilites on top of mobility via feathers/body and soul/life grip, guardian spirit, Spirit of redemption... divine insight, power infusion.... hmmmmm..... You can't really think holy has only PoH...

5) Holy IS better then disc at RAW HPS. Disc has too much power in the absorb field, it's been noted by blizzard, players, and just about anyone. Holy competes perfectly FINE with any other healing class. Disc just makes fights EASIER FOR PROGRESSION PURPOSES.

1) You think holy mana regen is fine? Look at a fight with heavy constant damage like heroic Garalon. Holy just can't keep up with mistweavers and even 4pc PVP paladins. Now look at a fight with heavy constant damage and infinite mana like heroic stone guards. Holy does better, but is still a step below mistweavers and holy pallys. And I have no idea why you're just listing various mana regen abilities that everyone can benefit from. The fact that you mention solace in the context of holy priests just boggles my mind.

2) Divine Hymn used to suck. Then in 4.3 they put in the talent that shortened its duration and increased its healing by 100% for holy priests.

3) 100k HPS is doable by all classes in a fight with consistent damage. Just out of curiosity, apart from Tsulong can you name me a fight where it would be preferable to bring a holy priest over a mistweaver? I leave out disc for obvious reasons, leave out pallys due to their gimmicky 4pc pvp, leave out resto druids because they're even worse than holy priests, and leave out resto shammys because they're mostly just wanted for mana tide and healing rain-friendly fights.

4) Now you're just rambling and listing abilities. You start listing aoe healing abilities yet include hymn of hope, which isn't.

5) I don't know why you're comparing raw heals with disc. If you take out absorbs, all disc is left with is atonement healing and aegis-less PoH. What's the point of that?

[Isheria]

Your point #1 shows you have no idea what you're on about in regards to holy, let me demonstrate you a bit with a very recent heroic garalon kill what an actually good holy priest is capable of: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4...?s=2706&e=3106.

[HolyLathusDisc]

1) You think holy mana regen is fine? Look at a fight with heavy constant damage like heroic Garalon. Holy just can't keep up with mistweavers and even 4pc PVP paladins. Now look at a fight with heavy constant damage and infinite mana like heroic stone guards. Holy does better, but is still a step below mistweavers and holy pallys. And I have no idea why you're just listing various mana regen abilities that everyone can benefit from. The fact that you mention solace in the context of holy priests just boggles my mind.

2) Divine Hymn used to suck. Then in 4.3 they put in the talent that shortened its duration and increased its healing by 100% for holy priests.

3) 100k HPS is doable by all classes in a fight with consistent damage. Just out of curiosity, apart from Tsulong can you name me a fight where it would be preferable to bring a holy priest over a mistweaver? I leave out disc for obvious reasons, leave out pallys due to their gimmicky 4pc pvp, leave out resto druids because they're even worse than holy priests, and leave out resto shammys because they're mostly just wanted for mana tide and healing rain-friendly fights.

4) Now you're just rambling and listing abilities. You start listing aoe healing abilities yet include hymn of hope, which isn't.

5) I don't know why you're comparing raw heals with disc. If you take out absorbs, all disc is left with is atonement healing and aegis-less PoH. What's the point of that?

1) Yes I do think holy regen is 100% fine. If you have low regen, then obviously stack more spirit gems.... 13k spirit raid buffed myself and I can perform perfectly fine as holy on ANY fight. And yes, I out perform our mistweaver AS HOLY on every single fight and he is a very good mistweaver.

2) Holy paladins also stack a ton of absorbs, so trying to compare a holy paladin to a holy priest is very, very pointless because the way they heal are 100% different.

3) You just proved my point, thank you. ANY class can do the same HPS. If you REALLY think holy cannot compete on heroic fights like empress/garalon you are completely mistaken and are probably a bad holy priest stacking haste and spamming too many AOE spells trying to snipe heals.

Mastery + smart casting = HPS + HIGH HPM

Haste + casting as many spells as possible trying to create HPS = HPS + LOW HPM

Low HPM meaning you will be OOM very quickly and have a lot of *downtime* trying to regen.

4) Rambling listing abilities proving a point about utility, and as a holy priest. They have some of the most powerful AOE healing abilities to create utility.

You point out i listed mana regen abilities, congrats. Do you know why? Fiend + Hope(possibly 2 hopes if you have a shadow priest) thats A LOT of regen.

On an average boss fight as holy, I can regen 200k-300k mana because I can time my cooldowns properly and regen a FULL mana pool as well as having higher HPS/HPM because of mastery.


5) WHy am I comparing raw heals with disc? To point out that they are vastly different, but if you are a GOOD holy priest, you know when to cast the proper heals to maximize your burst HPS during an AOE phase on a boss.

IE; Having serendipity up and being able to time the PoH HIT a split second after the aoe happens, not waiting for the aoe then casting it.

Or having some mastery already rolling on the players before the aoe and doing the same thing.

Having a fresh prayer of mending on someone, maybe even having a couple renews up and making sure CoH is off cooldown.



There are so many things to a holy priest, and in general ANY raw healing class that need to be taken into account before people start going "AMG LOW REGEN HALP WUT 2 DO PLZ?"


Learn to play a holy priest kid, then get back to me.



And becuse I know it's coming. Check my logs, please.. yea I play disc right now on progression fights because it simply makes things easier. That does not however mean I couldn't play holy and do the same thing. BEcause I guarantee I can.

[Heap]

I just don't get how they can nerf the throughput of our only AoE heal (other than PoM and lvl 90 talents) by about 50% and not give anything in return (so far)...
IMO they are attacking the wrong problem. They should go after spirit shell (more) instead.


They don't want us to be shield-bots? Well congratulations, cause with our terrible AOE throughput next patch, SS and barrier will be the only reasons to bring a disc priest into a raid.

Was DA stacking ever even a thing?



Also, yay for less mobility if you chose to take anything other than solace! (do we know yet if it heals or adds evangelism stacks?)

[HolyLathusDisc]

Remove the cooldown on arch angel. Instant raw healing boost