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  1. #21
    Mechagnome Flalia4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnrage View Post
    I hope something changes. Arms is actually going to be worse in 5.2 than what it is on live now, which I didn't think was possible.
    How's it going to be worse? I like arms whys blizzard keep forcin me into fury?(

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Flalia4 View Post
    How's it going to be worse? I like arms whys blizzard keep forcin me into fury?(
    The problem is PvP. Warrior burst is far too good in its current state and blizzard has never been a fan of modifying abilities to work specific ways in PvP and PvE separately (hence why there are only 2-3 abilities that do, CS being one of them). Its very difficult for them to modify a spec to still be viable for both.

    Its going to take some time for them to do it, but im sure arms will receive the buffs that it needs before 5.2 launches on live to be competitive enough to give warriors no definitive choice in spec for DPS and base it solely on preference. Kinda like DKS that dual wield vs 2hander (DW is higher and is the clear choice, but is only ahead by 1-2k DPS, which is negligible in most cases).

  3. #23
    I would like to draw your attention to this most recent post from GC regarding the Warrior changes.

    Um, the revert on the mastery changes, haste back down to 50% (though haste isn't very good for us anyway and is more a fury buff), and the rage cost on OP are all going backwards for arms DPS. I hope there's more changes coming? As it stands we would do far less in 5.2 compared to what we do on live now.
    Tuning DPS numbers is one of the last things we do, because it's dependent on all of the other changes being stable. The problems we are trying to solve now are stuff like "How to make Arms use Slam more?" and "How to make rage matter?" Once we get those issues resolved, we can tune up all of the numbers at once (because we'd agree Arms is a little low in PvE).
    I think I'm going to be very cautiously optimistic that we will receive straight damage buffs, either to weapon damage modifiers to the special abilities or to Seasoned Soldier.

    However, we do need to provide some feedback on the fact that Overpower's 10 Rage cost may cause rotation imbalances due to inadequate rage generation.

    Let's look at the questions he's asking :

    "How to make Arms use Slam more?"

    ->Decrease Slam's rage cost or increase it's damage so that it's better than OP+HS.

    The first part is easy and is probably a more balanced solution because the DPR becomes a whole lot better than OP+HS.

    The second part makes it an extremely hard hitting attack for it's rage cost, but may have repercussions in PvP.

    It's also probably better if we were to decrease Overpower's Rage cost to 5, and Slam's to 25, and adjust the damage done by both abilities to ensure that Slam's DPR is better.

    "How to make rage matter?"

    I think the main problem with Arms gameplay in both PvE and PvP was that rage didn't matter a lot. With the first proposed 5.2 model, Arms could basically sit in Def stance in PvP all the time and chain a MS->2x OP->CS/DR/whatever, almost all the time. It was still good damage and reasonable amount of pressure, and if it was needed they could always switch to Battle Stance at some point, gain a bit of rage and smash through the target's HP.

    With the current model, Rage becomes a lot more valuable, but on the other hand we actually lose damage because of the fact that we now have to spend 20 Rage on 2x Overpowers where we usually used to spend ZERO. This puts a strain on our rage generation, decreases the number of Slams/HS we use, and therefore decreases the damage we deal.

    Putting a Rage cost on Overpower and not buffing it's damage, or decreasing the Rage cost of Slam/HS has made a considerable difference to the damage we deal. I feel that this is where we need to be tuned.

    If we're going to use Rage, let's use it to deal more damage than we did before. The options are of course to make Slam and Overpower do more damage, and therefore make Warriors sit in Battle Stance so that they can deal that damage properly instead of sitting in Def stance all the time.

    There may be other ideas, but this is what I think that needs to be done.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaljurei View Post
    I would like to draw your attention to this most recent post from GC regarding the Warrior changes.



    I think I'm going to be very cautiously optimistic that we will receive straight damage buffs, either to weapon damage modifiers to the special abilities or to Seasoned Soldier.

    However, we do need to provide some feedback on the fact that Overpower's 10 Rage cost may cause rotation imbalances due to inadequate rage generation.

    Let's look at the questions he's asking :

    "How to make Arms use Slam more?"

    ->Decrease Slam's rage cost or increase it's damage so that it's better than OP+HS.

    The first part is easy and is probably a more balanced solution because the DPR becomes a whole lot better than OP+HS.

    The second part makes it an extremely hard hitting attack for it's rage cost, but may have repercussions in PvP.

    It's also probably better if we were to decrease Overpower's Rage cost to 5, and Slam's to 25, and adjust the damage done by both abilities to ensure that Slam's DPR is better.

    "How to make rage matter?"

    I think the main problem with Arms gameplay in both PvE and PvP was that rage didn't matter a lot. With the first proposed 5.2 model, Arms could basically sit in Def stance in PvP all the time and chain a MS->2x OP->CS/DR/whatever, almost all the time. It was still good damage and reasonable amount of pressure, and if it was needed they could always switch to Battle Stance at some point, gain a bit of rage and smash through the target's HP.

    With the current model, Rage becomes a lot more valuable, but on the other hand we actually lose damage because of the fact that we now have to spend 20 Rage on 2x Overpowers where we usually used to spend ZERO. This puts a strain on our rage generation, decreases the number of Slams/HS we use, and therefore decreases the damage we deal.

    Putting a Rage cost on Overpower and not buffing it's damage, or decreasing the Rage cost of Slam/HS has made a considerable difference to the damage we deal. I feel that this is where we need to be tuned.

    If we're going to use Rage, let's use it to deal more damage than we did before. The options are of course to make Slam and Overpower do more damage, and therefore make Warriors sit in Battle Stance so that they can deal that damage properly instead of sitting in Def stance all the time.

    There may be other ideas, but this is what I think that needs to be done.
    I think you are very reasonable and you are right about what you are saying. PvP is probably the reason arms was held back so long for buffs and Im pretty sure once 5.2 hits arms is going to be either mediocre at best or bad in a PvP environment (compared to what it was at release).

    I am still under the impression that they should keep mastery at 75% (they nerfed it down to 55% again), because arms scaling is still very bad and that should guarantee that we are not stuck with the same problems in a few patches again once the well-scaling classes hit good gear levels again. Cant say much about the haste change. Haste would probably much better if it would reduce the GCD of our spells (whatever not going to happen).
    The advantage of having a powerful haste and mastery scaling would be very crucial for PvE and very limited for PvP since you dont have the needed itemvalue stats to have enough of all stats to fully benefit from the scaling.

  5. #25
    I really hope they fix Arms before 5.2 hits. I would really dislike to be forced to spec to Fury, not due to DPS's related matters, but due to "rotational feel" or lack of the same.
    I just wish Arms was like it was before 5.0x hit live servers. The new 5.2 build seems to demand no skill at all.
    /cry sob sob

  6. #26
    i have no idea what GC is trying to do but with these changes arms dps is going to get worst. funny part is that he is trying to up arms dps in pve with these changes.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenEnergy View Post
    I think you are very reasonable and you are right about what you are saying. PvP is probably the reason arms was held back so long for buffs and Im pretty sure once 5.2 hits arms is going to be either mediocre at best or bad in a PvP environment (compared to what it was at release).

    I am still under the impression that they should keep mastery at 75% (they nerfed it down to 55% again), because arms scaling is still very bad and that should guarantee that we are not stuck with the same problems in a few patches again once the well-scaling classes hit good gear levels again. Cant say much about the haste change. Haste would probably much better if it would reduce the GCD of our spells (whatever not going to happen).
    The advantage of having a powerful haste and mastery scaling would be very crucial for PvE and very limited for PvP since you dont have the needed itemvalue stats to have enough of all stats to fully benefit from the scaling.
    He's quoting wrong reasons for some of his changes.

    For example, he wanted to buff Haste and Mastery. So he increased the amount of Haste from gear by 100%, and buffed Mastery to do 75% Weapon Damage.

    After that, he backtracks on the Haste buff by saying that it may overtake Crit's value, and intrude on DK gear choices. This is a fair point. A good way to resolve that would be to increase Crit scaling, but as a result of this we may get a bigger DPS boost than what was intended. On one hand this is good because Arms scaling is downright terrible compared to every spec, and we desperately need better scaling on every stat. On the other hand, if scaling buffs are accompanied by damage buffs as well, then it may be too overpowered.

    Second was the backtrack on the Mastery buff. His logic was that, because of OP+HS usage, and the Haste buff(indirect rage generation buff, however that's retarded because we get a few extra autoattacks because of the Haste buff which isn't going to increase rage generation by a significant amount). With OP's rage cost going up to 10, we aren't going to be using as many HS as he thinks, which is a nerf to the amount of damage we would have been obtaining from Mastery.

    We need to provide some strong feedback on this. Comparison of logs before and after the Mastery change is a good way to go about it, I'll try and get some tonight before any more changes are made so that they can be posted on the US forums by someone here with a US Account.

    As Secondwind said on US forums, a simple damage increase to all abilities or Seasoned Soldier is simply a band-aid fix at the current achievable gear levels. At later levels the scaling is going to cause problems for us and we'll be at the bottom of the pack again. That said, I really hope Landsoul would post his modified skill priority for Simcraft so we could test it out, I believe he has vastly different scaling values for our stats and a more optimistic damage value for Arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by cexspa View Post
    i have no idea what GC is trying to do but with these changes arms dps is going to get worst. funny part is that he is trying to up arms dps in pve with these changes.
    What he's actually trying to do is described in the post that he put up that I quoted from the US Forums. He's trying to fix some of the problems that Arms currently has, i.e bad scaling, gameplay issues, etc. He has also stated that he is going to buff Arms damage after these kind of tuning changes are complete so that we can see the overall picture, do some heavy Simcraft testing to get updated SEP values for our stats and provide some more updated feedback.

    On the other hand I do agree that he's either misguided or going about the wrong way to check what changes are being made to the spec through his changes to Haste/Mastery and Overpower. We need to correct this.

  8. #28
    I feel as if the changes to tfb are going in the right direction, though I think that there shouldn't be any change to overpowers rage cost (keeping it at 0). Instead I'd like to see a way to expend a 5stack of tfb in form of a bleed using some neglected abilities such as cleave and whirlwind.

    Something along the lines of
    -Your next cleave only hits one target for normal damage, but deals an additional x% over 18sec
    And for aoe
    -Your next whirlwind will deal normal damage and also apply a bleed for the damage it deals over the next 8sec.

    I haven't put too much thought into this, but I feel as if arms and fury have been too similar so far, and a change such as this could add a new dynamic to differentiate it. This would also encourage saving some overpower procs by using slam as filler possibly leading to rage and stack management.

  9. #29
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by micromanftw View Post
    I feel as if the changes to tfb are going in the right direction, though I think that there shouldn't be any change to overpowers rage cost (keeping it at 0). Instead I'd like to see a way to expend a 5stack of tfb in form of a bleed using some neglected abilities such as cleave and whirlwind.

    Something along the lines of
    -Your next cleave only hits one target for normal damage, but deals an additional x% over 18sec
    And for aoe
    -Your next whirlwind will deal normal damage and also apply a bleed for the damage it deals over the next 8sec.

    I haven't put too much thought into this, but I feel as if arms and fury have been too similar so far, and a change such as this could add a new dynamic to differentiate it. This would also encourage saving some overpower procs by using slam as filler possibly leading to rage and stack management.
    Yeah, maybe they could put back rend in form of stackable TFB bleed, what would scale from haste. It could work for PvE and PvP, because bleeds are never a "problem" in PvP. However how to implement this in the current one is hard.

    ... Why not to pair TFB again with Slam, but instead of doing additional direct damage, it would apply a extra bleed effect for x seconds depending on stacks or something (and consume all the stacks when hit)? Obviously Thunderclap could be paired with this kind of effect too, making aoe "rotation" a bit more effective if done right. :P

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kankipappa View Post
    ... Why not to pair TFB again with Slam, but instead of doing additional direct damage, it would apply a extra bleed effect for x seconds depending on stacks or something (and consume all the stacks when hit)? Obviously Thunderclap could be paired with this kind of effect too, making aoe "rotation" a bit more effective if done right. :P
    Blizzard seems to be straying away from buffs that are thrown on the target as opposed to the player to ease target switching. Im all for them doing it too, considering we saw how useful redirect was for rogues in fights like heroic ragnaros sons phase.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Laundry View Post
    The problem is PvP. Warrior burst is far too good in its current state and blizzard has never been a fan of modifying abilities to work specific ways in PvP and PvE separately (hence why there are only 2-3 abilities that do, CS being one of them). Its very difficult for them to modify a spec to still be viable for both.

    Its going to take some time for them to do it, but im sure arms will receive the buffs that it needs before 5.2 launches on live to be competitive enough to give warriors no definitive choice in spec for DPS and base it solely on preference. Kinda like DKS that dual wield vs 2hander (DW is higher and is the clear choice, but is only ahead by 1-2k DPS, which is negligible in most cases).
    dont worry about warrior burst in pvp-it will be nerf in 5.3.they have nerfed or removed any new we got in mop execpt for cd stacking.but blizz will get to that soon enough.i think its funny you guys cant see the patteren with blizz and the nerfing of warriors.its been happen like this since wrath.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    dont worry about warrior burst in pvp-it will be nerf in 5.3.they have nerfed or removed any new we got in mop execpt for cd stacking.but blizz will get to that soon enough.i think its funny you guys cant see the patteren with blizz and the nerfing of warriors.its been happen like this since wrath.
    you completely misunderstood what I said. Im not concerned with warrior burst in PvP, I said the problem with making arms comparable to fury in PvE means the changes they DO make cant be any bit of gain in PvP. They are trying to balance both to be equally as good, and thats very difficult for them to do.

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