Hunters are now the only class without...

[aarjun]

a way to do cleave damage or dot targets baseline. You have to spec SV and even then for spread mobs on fights like heroic modes of Garalon, Amber-Shaper, Will, etc. you can never compete with other classes. Not sure if anyone else is bothered, but it pains me to see how they fixed it for ww monks, arcane and frost mages, buffed ele cleave, but completely neglected hunters. Sadly, GC responded to my tweet about pets and ignored all others asking for cleave

[Glurp]

How did Ele cleave get buffed? as far as I know cleaving as Ele just involves replacing lightning bolt with chain lightning, as a hunter would replace arcane shot with multi shot at 3+ targets. Also serpent sting in BM still does about 3x as much damage as 1 arcane shot and costs less focus so multi-dotting as a Hunter is very much worth it even as BM.

[aarjun]

CL does 100% damage to secondary targets in 5.2. Also, if you're dotting targets as BM in place of Arcane, you'd end up doing less damage since you miss out on Cobra Strikes.

[Glurp]

So what do you want? Do you want a Multi-shot buff so we can use that instead of arcane shot for a 2nd target?

[Nemesis003]

So what do you want? Do you want a Multi-shot buff so we can use that instead of arcane shot for a 2nd target?

no i want a fucking cleave... everyone else has one...


there is nothing a hunter can do that other classes cannot do better.

[Dracodraco]

Clearly, every spec should have a viable cleave and not just Survival, just like Assassination and Subtlety has.
Oh wait. Never mind. Rogues totally spec Combat for cleave fights because it's superior.
There's no reason we can't multidot well as survival - SS as Surv ticks for, on average, 20% or so more than a comparably geared boomkin. Which means that as they have 2 dots, we will obviously fall behind them, but consider the fact that -
We still have our pet and autoshots doing damage while multidotting.
We spend half the GBC's boomkins do to keep dots up.
We can apply a ton of serpent stings if things are suddenly together (think Ambershaper, new ambers are spawning and half of them goes in melee - one well placed MS throws our stings on the monstrosity, the current reshape, and 2-3 bloods).
Hunters do "allright" in the "cleave" department now. Having to respec is a minor thing, and not at all unheard of for the other classes either.

[Nemesis003]

Clearly, every spec should have a viable cleave and not just Survival, just like Assassination and Subtlety has.
Oh wait. Never mind. Rogues totally spec Combat for cleave fights because it's superior.
There's no reason we can't multidot well as survival - SS as Surv ticks for, on average, 20% or so more than a comparably geared boomkin. Which means that as they have 2 dots, we will obviously fall behind them, but consider the fact that -
We still have our pet and autoshots doing damage while multidotting.
We spend half the GBC's boomkins do to keep dots up.
We can apply a ton of serpent stings if things are suddenly together (think Ambershaper, new ambers are spawning and half of them goes in melee - one well placed MS throws our stings on the monstrosity, the current reshape, and 2-3 bloods).
Hunters do "allright" in the "cleave" department now. Having to respec is a minor thing, and not at all unheard of for the other classes either.

see thats just wrong... putting a dot on 2 targets is not a cleave. Boomkins also crush hunters on 2-3 target DPS. Hunters have subpar AoE non-exsistant cleave and middle of the pack single target DPS.


Here is a good example, this week i did heroic will again as BM as my guild strat works against the root that comes from frost traps as SV, i had SrS up on everything as much as possible while soaking and keeping traps down, i ranked 23 int eh world for BM hunters for 77.9k DPS, and i was the lowest DPS in the raid.

World 23 for BM hunters is still dead last for my guild in terms of DPS... It doesn't matter the fight, no class should be able to do 250+% DPS of another class when providing the same exact role for the raid.

[Sariengrey]

nothing a hunter can do that other classes cant do better? (also to note : EVERYONE says this about whatever class they play......)

what are you smoking?
have you raided with a survival hunter?
their aoe is amazing, they can do FULL DPS WHILE MOVING- who else can do that as a ranged class? who? please tell me.....
their dot got a buff and they are one of the top ranged dps in the game now, beating many casters
they are still currently gods in pvp

so you have one situation or mechanic some other classes have that you dont, you have several advantages over many ranged classes


sometimes i wonder if people are playing the same game as me?
damn...........
people wont be happy unless the class they play is top dps in every situation ,on every boss.....this never changes

[Meleti]

So what do you want? Do you want a Multi-shot buff so we can use that instead of arcane shot for a 2nd target?

You are already supposed to use Multi on two targets if you happen to be SV.

[Glurp]

You are already supposed to use Multi on two targets if you happen to be SV.

Only to keep SS up, not spam all day.

[Jeremypwnz]

see thats just wrong... putting a dot on 2 targets is not a cleave. Boomkins also crush hunters on 2-3 target DPS. Hunters have subpar AoE non-exsistant cleave and middle of the pack single target DPS.


Here is a good example, this week i did heroic will again as BM as my guild strat works against the root that comes from frost traps as SV, i had SrS up on everything as much as possible while soaking and keeping traps down, i ranked 23 int eh world for BM hunters for 77.9k DPS, and i was the lowest DPS in the raid.

World 23 for BM hunters is still dead last for my guild in terms of DPS... It doesn't matter the fight, no class should be able to do 250+% DPS of another class when providing the same exact role for the raid.

Omg call the presses other classes can multidot/cleave better than us!

Some classes are terrible burst compared to BM Hunters, we all have things we excel at and things we are subpar at.

[Holes]

So every class needs to have the same set of tools? Cool.

[Nemesis003]

nothing a hunter can do that other classes cant do better? (also to note : EVERYONE says this about whatever class they play......)

what are you smoking?
have you raided with a survival hunter?
their aoe is amazing, they can do FULL DPS WHILE MOVING- who else can do that as a ranged class? who? please tell me.....
their dot got a buff and they are one of the top ranged dps in the game now, beating many casters
they are still currently gods in pvp

so you have one situation or mechanic some other classes have that you dont, you have several advantages over many ranged classes


sometimes i wonder if people are playing the same game as me?
damn...........
people wont be happy unless the class they play is top dps in every situation ,on every boss.....this never changes

you just proved you don't raid past LFR and do not play hunter, nothing more.


and no-one is saying hunters should be top all the time, however right now there is no fight where hunters can top when there is a half assed warrior DK lock or mage in the raid.

There should never be a fight where one DPS class is over 100k DPS behind another one and both are ranking in the top 50 in the world for their efforts. All it shows is blizzard screwed the pooch on class and boss design.

Yes its true hunters lose 0 damage while on the move, however other classes can run stop DPS then run again and still out DPS hunters. The DPS on the move is great but its nothing special, and warlocks can do it as well.

[Meleti]

Only to keep SS up, not spam all day.

Quoting a long post from EJ:

I was thinking about the best course of action in multi target fights, more specifically: when to use SrS or Multi Shot for multi dotting.

Here are my thoughts so far, using numbers from Rivkah's femaledwarf.com with my own char as a reference:

A. 2 or more targets, spread far apart

1 AS: 32900 dmg, 20 focus = 1645 DPF
1 SrS: 53969 dmg, 25 focus = 2159 DPF

Using SrS to dot other targets seems to be clearly better than only using AS as a focus dump, even when assuming that the other targets won't have the 5% spell damage debuff.

B. 2 targets next to each other (i.e. Stone Guard in Mogu'shan Vaults)

a) using 1 MS every 15 sec to also dot the second target:

One MS cast does ((10307 MS dmg + 16268 Imp SrS dmg) * 2 targets) + 53969 dmg for a full SrS on the secondary target
-> 107119 dmg for 40 focus = 2678 DPF

b) "spamming" MS

I'm not sure how to calculate what happens when you use MS instead of AS as a focus dump all the time. Let's say only the MS does damage, while the SrS dot has no chance to tick (which obviously is too low, because you can't just spam MS all the time):
((10307 MS dmg + 16268 Imp SrS dmg) * 2 targets)
-> 53150 dmg for 40 focus = 1328 DPF

So with two targets next to each other, it seems to be a good idea to use MS every 15 seconds to also dot the second target. I'm not sure what happens if you would simply use MS as a focus dump instead of AS while maintaining your normal rotation otherwise. FD.com says for 1 target it's "only" a loss of 2228 DPS (60637 DPS -> 58409 DPS), so for two targets the DPS loss will be smaller. Maybe it would be even a DPS gain.

C. 3 targets next to each other

a) using 1 MS every 15 sec to also dot the 2 other targets:

((10307 MS dmg + 16268 Imp SrS dmg) * 3 targets) + 53969 * 2 dmg for a full SrS on both other targets
-> 187663 dmg for 40 focus = 4692 DPF

b) "spamming" MS
Let's say again that the SrS dots don't do any damage at all, because I don't know how to calculate the dots:
((10307 MS dmg + 16268 Imp SrS dmg) * 3 targets)
->79725 dmg for 40 focus = 1993 DPF

I'm not sure what to make of 3 target fights. The DPF and DPS becomes better than using AS, so using MS as a focus dump while maintaining your normal rotation otherwise seems advantageous.
Would it be even better to forego other shots completely, only using CoS and MS? I don't know. ES only does 50499 dmg for 35 focus = 2020 DPF for me, which is comparable, and the DPS is worse... on the other hand there are the free LnL ES.

--
edit:
Maybe FD can help if I try to alter the priority list a bit more. Using my own character as a reference:

2 targets, normal rotation but using MS instead of AS as the focus dump:
According to FD, this would be a loss of 2162 DPS in my case, but MS and Imp SrS do 3294 DPS which would be gained on the secondary target.

2 targets, spec into TotH instead of DB and use MS as the focus dump:
For a single target this would mean a loss of 4930 DPS and a gain of 4311 DPS from MS and Imp SrS on the second target, so it seems to be not a good idea. (For three targets, with 4311 DPS on both secondary targets it obviously would be worthwile to take TotH over DB)

3 targets, AoE rotation (ExT, RF, MS and CoS only, specced into TotH):
This would mean 21568 DPS lost single target, but 11934 *2 = 23868 DPS gained on the other targets. Without TotH it only would be 8140 *2 = 16280 DPS gained, though.

To sum up my thoughts so far:

- multi dotting with SrS is better than a simple AS if targets are spread far apart

- 2 targets next to each other: one MS at least every 15 sec is good; using MS instead of AS as the focus dump while still maintaining the normal rotation seems even slightly better. Speccing into TotH is not advisable, since it's a minor DPS loss.

- 3 targets next to each other: Using MS instead of AS as the focus dump is good; using the AoE rotation (Explosive Trap, Multi Shot, Cobra Shot, Glaive Toss or Barrage) seems slightly better if you're specced into TotH and worse if you are not.

I believe the 5.1 hotfix was neutral to Imp SrS damage so this post is still fairly accurate.

[Deklol]

their aoe is amazing, they can do FULL DPS WHILE MOVING- who else can do that as a ranged class? who? please tell me.....

Every single warlock whom takes Kil'jaeden's Cunning.

[Verain]

I am about 100% convinced that the ability of hunters to do so much damage on the move from range is currently their "pve kit". I don't particularly think this is great design, but it IS something that they and they alone bring- apparently at rather large damage loss.


Note that uncapped target aoe was a mutilate rogue thing until vengeance- but that's a limited resource. Pretty sure survival tops rogues at this task post buff, so there is that.

[Deleted]

Every single warlock whom takes Kil'jaeden's Cunning.

Without a penalty
OT: Just because many other speccs of other classes have cleave that doesn't mean hunter has to have one too. Take Retribution Paladins for example, should they be given CRAZY over the top AoE dmg just because Hunters, Mages, Warriors, Demo locks, etc etc can destroy the meters with AoE. If you want all classes to be the same then go play an FPS where everyone has the same abilities. If your class is the same as everyone else's then what's the fun...

[gulder]

Quoting a long post from EJ:

I believe the 5.1 hotfix was neutral to Imp SrS damage so this post is still fairly accurate.

They nerfed Imp SS damage and buffed SS, so I'd say no. Not sure when this post was made though.

[Deleted]

They nerfed Imp SS damage and buffed SS, so I'd say no. Not sure when this post was made though.

Buffing SS to twice it's damage and then they halved the damaged of ImpSS meaning that ImpSS does as much as pre-patch but SS does twice the damage. So in the end ImpSS wasn't nerfed only scaled down due to the buff on SS.

[Deleted]

The post from EJ is outdated. SS focus cost was reduced to 15 focus in order to ease multi-dotting. So I'd say 2 targets multidot, 3 or more targets multishot as SV (without TotH).