View Poll Results: Should parenting require a license or parenting courses?

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  • Yes, parenting should require both a license and mandatory parenting courses.

    94 30.32%
  • Yes, parenting courses only.

    54 17.42%
  • Yes, license only.

    16 5.16%
  • No to either.

    137 44.19%
  • No opinion

    9 2.90%
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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    No, but I think that they should have a class in school related to parenting and other social things. Would be great if more people learned how to deal with others in a more intelligent way.
    ^ Implying the people who pay attention in high school are the same as those who end up hating their lives and everyone around them...

    I'm not sure I agree with that Implication. People who peaked in high school are the same ones who didn't pay attention and who end up being angry about their lives and take it out on everyone around them at a later date, in my experience.

  2. #202
    Legendary! vindicatorx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    My position is and has always been that I believe adoption is a moral obligation and a real problem that needs to be addressed. That doesn't mean that you can't have biological children, but I think everyone should help pick up the slack of a very broken world. One of my best friends' parents had 4 biological and adopted 3 from Rwanda.
    You can think this all you want, and it's great you do. I however do not agree with this. People should take responsibility for themselves and whatever kids they have unless the parents died, they should be raising their kids, if they are unable to raise those kids they shouldn't have had them in the first place. I didn't get to enjoy the act that caused the effect ergo I should not have to pay for it. I do not owe you or your offspring anything and I'm sorry but people should not be entitled to having shit handed out to them because they are not doing what it takes to earn the shit on their own.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    ^ Implying the people who pay attention in high school are the same as those who end up hating their lives and everyone around them...

    I'm not sure I agree with that Implication. People who peaked in high school are the same ones who didn't pay attention and who end up being angry about their lives and take it out on everyone around them at a later date, in my experience.
    Implying there are only two types of people in high school.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Implying there are only two types of people in high school.
    Way to avoid the question :P

    The people that need the help generally don't recognize that they need help. There are a ton of free courses around for a lot of child-rearing stuff (at least in the places I have lived... the south might be different, I don't know).

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Way to avoid the question :P

    The people that need the help generally don't recognize that they need help. There are a ton of free courses around for a lot of child-rearing stuff (at least in the places I have lived... the south might be different, I don't know).
    Such a class would be a requirement. Not everybody would take something useful from it, but the same can be said about every other class. What you're saying is basically similar to saying that people who are bad at math make math courses pointless.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Such a class would be a requirement. Not everybody would take something useful from it, but the same can be said about every other class. What you're saying is basically similar to saying that people who are bad at math make math courses pointless.
    So, with already falling behind nearly every other western nation in things like math and science, we are going to take time away from that to try to teach kids how to raise kids?

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    So, with already falling behind nearly every other western nation in things like math and science, we are going to take time away from that to try to teach kids how to raise kids?
    Not just how to raise kids, or how to deal with other people. Also, the reason we're falling behind other nations isn't because we don't spend enough time on the subjects, it's because the methods we're using are poor, as is our quality control.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Not just how to raise kids, or how to deal with other people. Also, the reason we're falling behind other nations isn't because we don't spend enough time on the subjects, it's because the methods we're using are poor, as is our quality control.
    I guess I'm confused how or where the parents are when you are learning socialization? I'm not sure why that is something that should or could be taught in a public school?

  9. #209
    Legendary! vindicatorx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Not just how to raise kids, or how to deal with other people. Also, the reason we're falling behind other nations isn't because we don't spend enough time on the subjects, it's because the methods we're using are poor, as is our quality control.
    I would say that most don't really give a shit either way. When I was in high school they had all the dopey programs teaching safe sex none of us gave a shit. The thing that had the largest impact was probably when about 5 of the girls in my class all got knocked up and dropped out. That got peoples attention.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    I guess I'm confused how or where the parents are when you are learning socialization? I'm not sure why that is something that should or could be taught in a public school?
    Parents often do a rather poor or incomplete job of it. It's not like the class would be raising the kids, either. Are you also against sex education? 'cause many people think that parents should teach their kids that sort of thing, yet when it is left up to them a significant number fail to do so.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  11. #211
    I'm more in favour of people needing a license to breed. However, teaching people how to be parents shouldn't involve mandatory courses etc. Maybe if the parents are recovering drug addicts or alcoholics

  12. #212
    It doesn't matter if it did or not, people would still pop out kids left and right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Warwithin View Post
    Politicians put their hand on the BIBLE and swore to uphold the CONSTITUTION. They did not put their hand on the CONSTITUTION and swear to uphold the BIBLE.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Except maybe Morgan Freeman. That man could convince God to be an atheist with that voice of his . . .

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    Parents often do a rather poor or incomplete job of it. It's not like the class would be raising the kids, either. Are you also against sex education? 'cause many people think that parents should teach their kids that sort of thing, yet when it is left up to them a significant number fail to do so.
    Of course not. I wouldn't be against a total revamp of our current education system either. I would be against spending time trying to teach kids 'how to deal with other people' when they certainly should be learning that on their own.

  14. #214
    Warchief Letmesleep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vindicatorx View Post
    I do not owe you or your offspring anything and I'm sorry but people should not be entitled to having shit handed out to them because they are not doing what it takes to earn the shit on their own.
    These are children we're talking about. They haven't tried to make yours or my life miserable, they aren't lazy bums leeching off the system, they are broken, helpless kids with no one looking after them. They are here, and ignoring them doesn't make them go away.
    Last edited by Letmesleep; 2013-01-22 at 08:35 AM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Of course not. I wouldn't be against a total revamp of our current education system either. I would be against spending time trying to teach kids 'how to deal with other people' when they certainly should be learning that on their own.
    I don't trust kids to learn how to deal with other people (and other things) on their own any more than I trust them to learn about sex on their own.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    I don't trust kids to learn how to deal with other people (and other things) on their own any more than I trust them to learn about sex on their own.
    But they already interact with each other every weekday in a (sort of) controlled environment, the school. It is one place that home schooled kids are lacking compared to public schooled kids.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    My position is and has always been that I believe adoption is a moral obligation and a real problem that needs to be addressed. That doesn't mean that you can't have biological children, but I think everyone should help pick up the slack of a very broken world. One of my best friends' parents had 4 biological and adopted 3 from Rwanda. I respect them greatly.
    I agree that the orphan population is a problem that needs to be addressed, but to call it a moral obligation (sorry for repeating myself over and over again) is self-righteous. When you phrase it like this, you are saying that every family that does not adopt is immoral, or as you state, selfish. There are many moral aspects to this discussion, but families choosing not to adopt is not one of them. I respect your friends parents as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    You can toss around insults all you like, but it doesn't stop it from being true. Raising a child does take sacrifice but in the end it's still creating life for your own satisfaction. If you weren't going to get anything out of it you wouldn't do it. That's how most relationships work, but the difference is you're bringing new life into the world which doesn't have any say in the matter. You hope it'll be happy, but what if it's not?
    A lot of people find satisfaction in doing good deeds, should they stop doing them because it makes them feel good? That would be selfish right? This is the line of logic your following. As a father of two, I do find great satisfaction in taking care of my children and making them happy, and you call me selfish for it. Now that I'm older, I realize all that my parents sacrificed for me to be where I am, and you call them selfish? Immoral? We are talking about families that are perfectly capable of raising happy children, and for you to sit up on your high horse and call out healthy families for being selfish and immoral is baffling to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    There's no doubt a lifetime of suffering has led me to want to make others aware of the darker side of life, but most people just pretend that when they have a baby it's going to be all sunshine and rainbows. Many people have kids when they aren't ready for them, or they pass down screwy biochemistry that makes the child suffer to the day they die. I don't personally believe it's yours or anyone else's right to procreate no matter what. There are some people that simply shouldn't procreate because of the disadvantages certain parents may pass down. Am I going to stop others? Am I going to advocate for laws trying to stop them? No, of course not, but I'm going to advocate for adoption instead. There are children already here that need families and I think it's selfish to ignore them.

    In any case the sacrifice of raising a child is the same no matter where you get it from. I'd argue adopting is an even greater sacrifice, but the amount of sacrifice to raise a child wasn't a point I was ever debating.
    You can argue the case that people who will bring a new life into this world in very unfortunate circumstances should not, but to say "I don't personally believe it's yours or anyone else's right to procreate no matter what" is, for a lack of a better word, insane. It's one thing to advocate fixing the orphan problem, which I don't have a problem with, but this oppressive sentiment that people should not procreate to fix the problem illustrates a profound ignorance of not understanding the ramifications of what would happen if your belief became a reality. I see that you would not vote against people having children, but the mere sentiment is bothersome enough.


    Quote Originally Posted by Letmesleep View Post
    Being a "good parent" has nothing to do with how you came upon your children. You can have biological children and still be an awful parent and you can also adopt while still being awful. I never suggested otherwise. I think it's perfectly fine to both adopt and have biological. I simply think people need to slow down and realize that outside of their bubble people are suffering. The time and energy spent raising a child is totally irrelevant to this conversation. I never suggested it didn't take time and energy. It's not unreasonable to advocate for adoption at all.
    I agree with most of this, it is not unreasonable to advocate for adoption. But you alienate all parents who do have biological children by saying they shouldn't because it's "playing god and being selfish." People should look outside their bubbles and realize that there are a lot of suffering people in our world and we can do something to help them, whether it be adopting a child, or even giving money to orphanages or charities that help these people. There are solutions to these problems, but telling people it's their moral responsibility to adopt, and to have children of their own is not their right, is the wrong solution.

  18. #218
    Stood in the Fire Management's Avatar
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    Some people shouldn't have kids.

  19. #219
    Scarab Lord Roose's Avatar
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    I am all for it, but it really is not practical and would never go over well.

    We already make people get licenses to drive and look at how many shitty drivers are still on the roads. I do not see anything different if we required a license and training for parents.

    Again, all for it. If we could do it without majorly violating human rights, but we can't.

    I would prefer that we just focus on improving education and not rewarding ignorance and people that have kids.

  20. #220
    I agree that the orphan population is a problem that needs to be addressed, but to call it a moral obligation (sorry for repeating myself over and over again) is self-righteous. When you phrase it like this, you are saying that every family that does not adopt is immoral, or as you state, selfish. There are many moral aspects to this discussion, but families choosing not to adopt is not one of them. I respect your friends parents as well.
    I also think adoption is a social moral obligation.

    Not everyone needs to adopt, but there are SO MANY children worldwide that need a home that it has become obvious that we are failing at our moral obligation, and it is not self-righteous to say that. We should take care of our own, we are all members of the human race.

    That being said, adoption processes need to become easier--and cheaper--in order to incentivize adoption; and post-adoption support needs to be given to parents who adopt children with special needs, because those children are the most difficult to adopt out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    And since we're dredging up old-world stuff, she should be happy she was even allowed to become a nurse at all instead of being raped.

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