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  1. #61
    Bloodsail Admiral KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    That sure sounds interesting, I want to see what they are up to, maybe one of the old earth shaping machines hidden in Azeroth gets rebuild.

    Oh and I didn't liked Illidan as a villain, the story was not told well in TBC, there are only one or two exceptions of quests that really immersed me with the conflict of defeating Illidan, mostly due to Akama who was pretty awesome.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    That sure sounds interesting, I want to see what they are up to, maybe one of the old earth shaping machines hidden in Azeroth gets rebuild.
    It's starting to sound like "earth-shaping" isn't actually the purpose of the machine...

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    If 5.4 is another raid tier that isn't Siege, I feel like we're going beneath Pandaria to find what Ra'den AND Wrathion are talking about.

    This works with the Garrosh AND Sha storylines.

    The Mogu, IMO, are kinda done once the Thunder King falls.

    The Sha are still very much around and can't be killed until this Darkness is purged.

    I think, personally, Yshaarj's corpse or an Old God's body is beneath Pandaria, which is acting as the true catalyst for the Sha.

    If we obliterate, the Sha go caput.

    But, Garrosh will try to control it, and his true spiral downward by trying to consume the Sha HIMSELF really begins.

    I'm not saying he'll go insane nor crazy..just drunk with power. :P

    I hope you're right, that would be one hell of a way to tie up all the loose ends in the expansion. I had literally no faith in this expansion before it came out, and now it might be one of my favorites.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Just because you are a writer doesn't make your view of writing good. There are many terrible writers / books out there. (not saying you are terrible, just making a point)

    TBC was the most connected, well written lore they had. It stemmed from their popular RTS games. Lore in mope is now made up on the spot...

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-17 at 04:19 PM ----------



    He is only alive in the caverns of time instance: "Well of Eternity" where you, you know, go BACK IN TIME to help him...
    Riiight. Retconed Space Goats on a space ship that belonged to Holy Snowflakes. Still got their asses kicked by few surviving addicts.

    TBC was great at the time. Lore wasn't. Never.

  5. #65
    Destil, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on your opinion that BC did not have an epic and cohesive story.

    I think the bigger issue is that it was not presented cohesively and that it required you to go outside of the game extensively to understand the whole story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    1. First off, plot holes. Why is it suddenly, after all these years, the portals have opened? I still have no idea why. What kind of plot device is it that "hey Portal's suddenly open. Let's jump inside and kill demons cuz I mean, it's not like we still have a Lich King or Black Dragonflight to deal with on Azeroth or anything.

    AND

    3. (Part 1) Identity Criss and Coherency. There isn't a single ounce of coherency in the story of Outlands. I felt discombobulated with every zone I went to like I did in Cataclysm. Sure, each zone had their story, but none of them, for me at least, pointed toward the MAin Story arc, which I STILL have no idea what it could possibly be.
    There were two items that led to opening of the portal.

    1) Lord Kazzak using a relic he discovered to re-unite with the burning legion stationed in outlands
    2) Kael'Thas sacking Tempest Keep, forcing the Draenei to Azeroth, and capturing a N'aru that he sends through the now open dark portal to train paladins.

    These seemed like separate events at the time, but we learn later on that the outland blood elves are in league with the burning legion.

    At this point - The alliance and horde are sent through the portal due to Burning Legion demons coming through the portal into Azeroth to get it under control, each faction has an additional incentive in that the Draenei want to reclaim Tempest Keep (and are always committed to stopping the Legion) while the blood elves that have been on Azeroth want to reunite with their brethren and king in outland - as well as orcs wanting to return to their homeland as well)

    Upon getting to Hellfire, both sides have a "whoa, your still alive moment" over people they believed died when Outland was ripped apart in WCII:TtDP.

    We also see - that like the title of the expansion states - there are crap tons of burning legion demons who are using this chunk of rock floating through the twisted nether as a staging base.

    In hellfire we learn early on that Kael and the blood elves are up to something but we don't know what.

    In zangarmarsh, we learn that the naga are draining tons of water and hoarding it - for what, we don't know. We additionally learn why the Legion likes this chunk of rock so much - they want to use it to make portals to everywhere.

    At this point, the story breaks a bit - Nagrand is a very horde centric zone, Terrokar is driven by the arakoa which end up not being anywhere near as interesting as a side threat as for example trolls were in the zul's, and blades edge really just works to close some loose ends from WC2.

    Finally we get back to the main storyline with Netherstorm and Shadowmoon Valley - This is where the pieces start to come together. Illidan is training an army of demon hunters and intends to create a new well of eternity using the vials of water he had taken, the waters from Zangarmarsh, and the magic energy the blood elves were hoarding in netherstorm. He wants this army to defeat the the burning legion... hey, thats good right, enemy of my enemy and all that... but no!

    Vashj and Kael are traitors - Vashj wants to take the power of a new well back to Azshara, Kael ended up secretly siding with the Legion and oh year - Illidan is F'n CRAZY - so if he makes his army, should he succeed in beating the legion, how long before he unloads it on Azeroth!

    So, first things first, those demons that originally came through the portal when Kazzak opened the portal took residence in karazhan - we had to clear those guys out to "shore up our borders"

    Did some house cleaning with the Gronn and the Fel orcs/Magtheridon

    And got set to take care of the Big 3 - which also included a fun trip into the past to a) get a trinket to get into the black temple, and b) remind us that the burning legion is still our main concern in having gone to outland in the first place by having to fight archimonde... which leads into your question #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    2. Who the hell was the main villain? They hinted, and I say this correctly, that Illidan was the main villain, and I think they even stated he was. If that were true, aside from Shadowmoon Valley, why didn't I feel an ounce of him being this "villain" throughout any of the other zones? And why was this "main villain" killed in the 2nd patch? Oh, hey, we finally found a hole in the Black Temple. Let's go inside, kill Illidan, and the Expansion is over.

    Due to the above fact, and the story reaching a very abrubt end, Blizzard had to conventionally craft another Main Villain, who for one hadn't even been seen nor heard of for the entire expansion, and wasn't even truly hinted at.

    AND

    3. (Part 2) As for Identity Crisis, let's look at Kaelthas. Not only does it not explain fully why he's suddenly siding with the Legion after years of servitude to Illidan, but they also pull out the biggest cop out of the century: "Merely a Setback". And so we're forced to fight a villain, who should've been killed off in Tempest Keep, who's half dead.

    To add to that fact, instead of going back to his Blood Elf people, who were CLEARLY happy with the Horde, he follows the idiotic path down to the Burning Legion and Kil jaeden, who comes out of no where and is proclaimed the true villain of TBC.
    The main villain, is, was, and always will be the BURNING LEGION - it says it in the dang title of the expansion. I'll do you one better, the cover art for the game is Kael and lots of fel glory - NOT ILLIDAN. Sure Illidan was the guy in the cinematic, cause he was such a popular lore figure Blizz had to bank on the marketability. Additionally, its a valid story telling mechanic to present you with one villain, only to learn that he is not the big bad... there is a much worse big bad. I will say this, that we learn of this other big bad at the end of Tempest Keep takes away the narrative swerve of the twist. But that alone invalidates your claim that SWP and KJ were some last minute throw in. Remember, TK was there at launch, the "Kael survives" swerve was there from BC launch! The burning legion was always the main villain, you just can't get past the cinematic with Illidan.

    As for why Kael switched sides - he recognized that Illidan was crazy and instead opted to join forces with the legion. I don't see how it is hard for you to understand why someone who is getting drunk off of fel energy and obsessed with the survival of his people doesn't make alliances with the group he perceives as having the greatest chance of winning. And yes, he doesn't go along with Lorthemar and the Azerothian blood elves because he believes that the burning legion can't be defeated and that he is making the right decision for his people

    So he goes and takes a part of Illidan's plan - recreating the well of eternity, and modifies it instead to re-ignite the sunwell.

    By the way, as for so many people complaining about "just a setback" - I have to be honest in saying that recurring villains in story telling are usually some of the better ones, I think the bigger issue is that the way it is executed attacks the thresholds of our suspension of disbelief - we fight him, he falls dead... really did no one check to make sure he was dead. If that fight ends with him running away and we get our loot from a chest, no one would care.

    Now then, I am not writing this lengthy post to posit that TBC's narrative was superior to Pandaria's... only to point out that the story, if you went out of your way actually get the story, was quite epic... its presentation of the story where it failed. MoP's narrative is both epic and spectacularly presented. It really goes to show how good Blizzard has gotten over the year at using the MMORPG to really tell the story in game and not really on outside media to explain the story.

    G_

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Its terrible, and has nothing to do with previous lore whatsoever. If you want great lore, look only to TBC and all its story lines and archs.
    Seriously Jaylock, thank you. That was the best laugh I've had all day. BC lore was developed just for people like you...meaning, you like seeing names and places you recognize, even if it has no cohesive story around why you're seeing those things. And you especially love killing bosses that you recognize, even if killing them makes no sense whatsoever. That's why you hate MoP so much; it's actually inventing new lore instead of retconning existing lore.

    There were people like you in Vanilla too. "Who's Ragnaros? I came to fight the Lich King! Old gods? Who cares about them, give me Sargeras!" This is an MMO. Every time you kill off a lore figure, you have to make a new one, or else you're going to run out of enemies to fight (or at least, enemies of any consequence). This is a story that never ends, and Pandaria is virgin territory for the lore. Even you must see why that's a good thing, right?

    Of course you don't. You'll just come back in another thread with your revisionist history of WoW, and nothing of what any of us say will have any effect. But it was worth a try.

  7. #67
    Elemental Lord Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kolston View Post
    I hope you're right, that would be one hell of a way to tie up all the loose ends in the expansion. I had literally no faith in this expansion before it came out, and now it might be one of my favorites.
    They're doing well so far with the story and writing for this Xpack.

    If they can honestly conclude this Expansion with a solid final raid, and a very good ending cinematic that wraps everything together, I'll be ecstatic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Mike Morhaine's definitely been using his body to sell copies of WoW.
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  8. #68
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Let's try and talk about Wrathion.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

  9. #69
    Elemental Lord Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Me Grimlock View Post
    Destil, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on your opinion that BC did not have an epic and cohesive story.

    -snip-

    G_
    Alright Grimlock, THANK YOU for actually being respectful in your differing opinion and using a very well thought out argument.

    I'm tired currently but I'll give you my response tomorrow.

    I'm at least happy to see someone on here who disagrees with another forum user to use logic instead of mindless bashing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Mike Morhaine's definitely been using his body to sell copies of WoW.
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  10. #70
    I really hope this doesn't mean Wrathion is ANOTHER anti-hero that's going insane/making bad decisions meaning he's going to be put down.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
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  11. #71
    Elemental Lord Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    I really hope this doesn't mean Wrathion is ANOTHER anti-hero that's going insane/making bad decisions meaning he's going to be put down.
    In no way does he seem insane nor like he's making bad decisions.

    It just seems like his plan for "the greater good" may not be as good for us as we think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Mike Morhaine's definitely been using his body to sell copies of WoW.
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  12. #72
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    In no way does he seem insane nor like he's making bad decisions.

    It just seems like his plan for "the greater good" may not be as good for us as we think.
    This mostly. He's extreme and dark.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Me Grimlock View Post
    Destil, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on your opinion that BC did not have an epic and cohesive story.

    I think the bigger issue is that it was not presented cohesively and that it required you to go outside of the game extensively to understand the whole story.
    G_
    you're wrong.

    first of all the vast majority of burning crusades villains made no sense AT ALL. illidan also had no plans to remake the well thats all fan speculation on how to try to explain just wtf the naga were even doing taking swamp water.

    illidan, kael'thas. both were antiheroes in warcraft 3 both were sympathetic and neither had ANY indication that they would be turned evil

    illidan ONLY SHOWED UP TWICE IN HIS OWN EXPANSION and the first time it wasnt even him just his voice. they NEVER gave a suitable excuse for why illidan attacked shattrath they never explained why he suddenly started mistreated the draenei (oh yeah ill get to this little retcon later) under akama. none of it made any sense.

    kael'thas again made no sense why would someone so loyal to his own people side with the legion? a people who created the council of tirisfal you know the group dedicated to destroying the legion whenever they showed up. plus they never released the novel that shouldve explained it even though they said it was already written.

    now heres one of the biggest f ups in lore that subsequently caused the horror of me'dan.

    thats right the draenei. they took a perfectly okay race the draenei and turned them into the malformed broken and connected them to the eredar just so they could have a "demony" race on the alliance. they retconned sargeras backstory, changed the eredars role in the legion to the nathrezim, poofed the draenei out of the air and retconned orc lore to make them fit. they also then retconned garona to be half orc half draenei instead of half orc half human.

    also the demons did not flee to karazhan that never happened the reason there were any demons in kara is because they arrived their through the rip in space time and we managed to kill their leader before he summoned anymore.

    blizzard has already said multiple times that bc was a mistake that because it was their first expansion that they skipped over alot of lore in order to make popular characters raid bosses.

    you know what wouldve made bc awesome? if kael'thas was the racial leader for the blood elves, turalyon and alleria had showed up, illidan was the main leader of the forces against the legion and an ALLY, they had given us demon hunter as the first new class. also if they had maybe used a bit more art assets.
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

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  14. #74
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    I'm personally ok with Draenei being former moral Eredar or the remaining. I thought that was ok.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron View Post
    I'm personally ok with Draenei being former moral Eredar or the remaining. I thought that was ok.
    if that had been the original story i probably wouldve been okay with it too, hell they probably couldve done it in a way that didnt retcon the original lore but they didnt they retconned the lore from warcraft 3 and changed the entire origin story for sargeras
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  16. #76
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    if that had been the original story i probably wouldve been okay with it too, hell they probably couldve done it in a way that didnt retcon the original lore but they didnt they retconned the lore from warcraft 3 and changed the entire origin story for sargeras
    Yeah well it's not like it did much. Ret-cons happen and can be good as long as it's reasonable.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! My Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/Aeluron Big fanboy of Yrel now. Love her now

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron View Post
    Yeah well it's not like it did much. Ret-cons happen and can be good as long as it's reasonable.
    except it wasnt reasonable in fact metzen said at a blizzcon that it was a mistake and that he had messed up and forgot the eredar lore from the warcraft 3 stuff.

    here ill think up a reason to make the current draenei exist without retconing anything.

    long before the eredar ever met sargeras they were one of the most advanced cultures in the world but during a civil war similar to the war of the ancients one side wanted to continue using fel magic and one side wanted to outlaw it. after one side was granted a great fount of power the eundar (made up name for current draenei since draenei wouldnt be usable) the highest class of light wielders prayed to the light and from the heavens came the naaru. during a battle on one of the naaru spaceships they crash onto outland and there they meet other light users in alleria and turalyons men. eventually after many years they rebuild the space ship and take alleria turalyon back to azeroth where they ally themselves with the alliance and beseech them to please come and aid them in the fight against the legion.

    boom uncorrupted eredar that dont break the lore
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

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  18. #78
    The Insane GennGreymane's Avatar
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    why did the whole rebuild the last titan make me think


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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    So Wrathion gets possessed by something and whoever/whatever possesses him wants to rebuild the "last titan"?

    Now, could this "last titan" be Sargeras? During the war of the ancients his body was obliterated with the collapse of the Well of Eternity portal.

    Possessed Wrathion wants us to "rebuild" a titan but we have no idea which Titan it is, or even if he/she is friendly.

    What if the titan we work to rebuild ends up being Sargeras? We put in the work to rebuild a titan hoping to gain an ally and when the switch is thrown we unwittingly unleash Sargeras as the final titan who wants to undo everything the Pantheon has done.
    Here is another What-If, what if the WE isn't us. What if the WE is the Burning Legion and they want to come back to Azeroth to the Tomb of Sargeras to get the things they need to rebuild Sargeras the fallen Titan ? Maybe if they rebuild his body, his spirit will come back to it. The Burning legion hasn't been to successful as of late, so they need the boss to come back.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwood View Post
    Here is another What-If, what if the WE isn't us. What if the WE is the Burning Legion and they want to come back to Azeroth to the Tomb of Sargeras to get the things they need to rebuild Sargeras the fallen Titan ? Maybe if they rebuild his body, his spirit will come back to it. The Burning legion hasn't been to successful as of late, so they need the boss to come back.
    his body isnt on azeroth... that was a weakened avatar. its kinda like a shortcut way to be summoned to a planet
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

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