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  1. #101
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    did blizzard put him on wowpedia? or was it a fan?

    I'm not disputing that he's a keeper. he is a keeper. but a keeper is a JOB, not a race. the journal says he is a "titan keeper". it could have said he was a "titan warrior", a "titan mage", a "titan guard" or a "titan fruit vendor". the important part here is that he is a titan. he's not just a keeper. he's not a titanic keeper. he's a titan keeper.
    I think both of you are missing the point, Only 7 named Titans, and one unnamed who fell in battle with an old god, without knowing if it was one 7 or an 8th. These 8 beings made planets. They are described as machine Gods of creation. Being that they are not flesh but powerful humanoid machines than any humanoid machine they make is also of the same race they are. It's like debating if a Ford pickup truck is actually a Ford.

  2. #102
    High Overlord Zahadem's Avatar
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    Frankly, is this even a conversation i dont want to offend anyone but it is pretty clear if a mogu goes to rip his heart out, Ra´den isnt a titan, hell, if Ra´den was a titan he farting in his sleep would kill Lei Shen... this is like saying that my undead warlock went and ripped c´thuns eye out and put it in his eye socket.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Zahadem View Post
    Frankly, is this even a conversation i dont want to offend anyone but it is pretty clear if a mogu goes to rip his heart out, Ra´den isnt a titan, hell, if Ra´den was a titan he farting in his sleep would kill Lei Shen... this is like saying that my undead warlock went and ripped c´thuns eye out and put it in his eye socket.
    did titan gas kill you in mogu'shan vaults?
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    I think both of you are missing the point, Only 7 named Titans, and one unnamed who fell in battle with an old god, without knowing if it was one 7 or an 8th. These 8 beings made planets. They are described as machine Gods of creation. Being that they are not flesh but powerful humanoid machines than any humanoid machine they make is also of the same race they are. It's like debating if a Ford pickup truck is actually a Ford.
    Mogu created stone-creatures and named them Saurok. They also create new life in form of the stone statues you see everywhere... doesnt mean that they're the same race.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  5. #105
    I've seen a couple of mentions of WoWpedia here, so, as a frequent editor of that wiki, I feel like I have to clear one thing up: Wowpedia is a mess. This is partially due to RPG info not yet having been moved to its own section (and the RPG contradicts WoW, even the parts from before it was declared non-canon, in A LOT of places, ranging from minor (dwarves originate from Ulduar rather than Uldaman) to major (blood elves are a race of evil nomadic terrorists)), partially due to pages on minor old subjects that haven't been updated in years and partially due to blizzard doing a really bad job on double-checking the lore on their expanded universe books (especially the early ones). When you look something up, always check whether or not the listed source is an RPG book.

    On the subject though, I doubt Ra-den is a titan, simply because ra-den has stone skin rather than metal skin. He actually reminds me a lot of Kologarn design-wise. We know Loken was responsible for ordering the construction of Kologarn, but not whether or not this took place before his corruption. If it did, titan keeper may just mean "very powerful guard who guards titan facilities".
    A look at the warcraft novels, RPG books, games and magical french space soccer.

    Glory to person-whose-name-I-dont-know-but-rules-Kul-Tiras!

  6. #106
    Isn't it possible that Lei shen used a device or help of a greater existence to capture Ra'den?
    after all nobody knows what happened between them

  7. #107
    Brewmaster Rhaide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    In the past, Blizzard Confirmed to us that we haven't seen a true titan yet, but now there is Ra-den. A Titan Keeper.

    In the past, titanic watchers or keepers were just called "watchers", "keepers", "sentinels" or in rare cases, "titanic watchers". But in the Dungeon Journal, Ra-den is called a "Titan Keeper".

    "Legend has it he found an ancient titan keeper guarding a miraculous device known as the Engine of Nalak'sha."

    Does this mean he is a Titan? is this "titan keeper" thing his "race-class combination", like a "human mage" or an "orc warrior"? is Ra-den the First Titan to be revealed in-game?

    he seems awefully powerful compared to the average watcher. remember those healthy watchers in uldum, which we beat in 5-man groups? well, ra-den is all beaten up, yet he's a hard-mode only raid boss. when lei shen took his heart, he gained special divine powers over lightning and wind. and when wrathion tells you to get lei shen's heart, he says it has the "powers of a god". true titans were called "gods" by lorewalker cho in his monologue about the thunder king and the mogu.

    I think Ra-den is a titan
    Titanic watchers/keepers vary VASTLY in power. If you remember, the final boss of uldaman (Archaedus) was a titanic watcher, and he can be solo'd at level 55 or earlier easily. It has been said numerous times by numerous people, you can never judge the true nature of a person/creature in the game by the difficulty of their fight. Unless of course you want to consider some angry mogu sorcerers as a step up from the dragon who almost destroyed the entire world.
    "When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all."

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  8. #108
    Epic! Duncanîdaho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    I think both of you are missing the point, Only 7 named Titans, and one unnamed who fell in battle with an old god, without knowing if it was one 7 or an 8th. These 8 beings made planets. They are described as machine Gods of creation. Being that they are not flesh but powerful humanoid machines than any humanoid machine they make is also of the same race they are. It's like debating if a Ford pickup truck is actually a Ford.
    I agree. None of the Ulduar watchers were even themselves when we fought them, they were being mind-controlled and had already been weakened over time. Thorim alone has a quote in game "Thorim's power is said to have been invoked once, and that it turned a whole continent into dust. ". Imagine that kind of power for a second, at full power he could vaporize Kalimdor if he wanted to. We literally had to time travel to put down Deathwing and he's on that same level of being able to fry a continent. These are not even full Titans, these are beings empowered by them and we can't kill them without massive help. 'Level' in game is just for gameplay sake, because we beat the Keepers at level 80 does not mean every boss at level 90 lorewise is more powerful.

    The Thunder King did not walk in on a Titan and prove he was stronger then him in single combat. Keep in mind what I said above about Deathwing and Thorim. If The Thunder King could defeat a Titan in one on one combat, then he would be going around the universe creating worlds with a thought or be rivaling Sargaras in power. The Thunder King definitely is not, so therefore, Ra-den is not a titan. He is a watcher with the same design as Thorim and Loken. Hence the similar powers and looks between them.

    I think what we did with Ulduar is what The Thunder King did with MSV thousands of years before Ulduar happened to us. Perhaps Ra-den was overcome by the Sha instead of Yogg Saron like the watchers were. Instead of being nice though like us and helping and chatting the Keeper up after knocking him to his senses, the Mogu kidnapped, tortured, and then began to somehow harvest Ra-den's power. It's like instead of what happened after we beat Thorim we said "Haha to bad your mine now bitch", dragged him out of Ulduar and used him as a battery for some goblin doomsday device.
    Last edited by Duncanîdaho; 2013-01-17 at 09:32 PM.
    The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself, "Now what is this thing doing?" -Children of Dune

  9. #109
    It's already been said, Ra-Den is not a Titan. Titan Keeper is just the term for what he is, just like Titan Watcher, which is another term for the same creation. All Titan Vaults have a variation of the Keeper/Watchers, because the Titans are very protective of their secrets. Ra-Den was the one assigned to guard over the Engine of Nalak'sha, likely because it had some important purpose similar to the powerful keepers assigned to watch over locations like the Halls of Origination or Ulduar.

  10. #110
    Not sure if this little quote was brought up yet but it might be relevant.

    Ah! The final piece of the puzzle. The Thunder King took on the powers of Ra-Den, the very essence of a Titan. He united the mogu into an empire and tried to continue the Titans' work. Of course he saw himself as a God!

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    Not sure if this little quote was brought up yet but it might be relevant.
    All Watchers are imbued with the essence of a Titan, this is why Freya up in Ulduar is called "Daughter of the Titans". This, however, does not mean they are Titans.

  12. #112
    Epic! Duncanîdaho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    Not sure if this little quote was brought up yet but it might be relevant.
    Well we know the aspects and the keepers were empowered by the Titans to do their job. If someone were able to steal an aspects or a watchers powers, they would indeed have the essence of a Titan at your command. Although it would be a tiny little fraction in comparison to the full thing. That's what made the dragonsoul so powerful in the first place. It contained a fraction of power from every Titan we knew.

    Cool stuff though, can't wait for this patch.
    The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself, "Now what is this thing doing?" -Children of Dune

  13. #113
    Brewmaster Rhaide's Avatar
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    Blizzard has been hyping up titans for over 5 years now. (longer, but it was about 4 1/2 - 5 years ago that people started paying attention), there is no way in hell they would finally unveil a titan in the least spectacular way possible. In the dungeon journal.

    Not
    A
    Chance.

    No offense to the OP, I can't wait for a titan either, but this thread is just the latest in a long line of : "IS 'x' A TITAN?, I THINK SO BECAUSE HIS NAME..." threads. The same arguments here have been made 1000 times for other things, the 100's of pages long titanic watcher (from ulduar) thread was full of people who SWORE they were titans, and had loads of reasonable evidence to back it up. They weren't. Blizzard isn't going to unveil a titan in an unglamorous fashion.

    It will be big, it will be hyped, it will not be in the dungeon journal.
    Last edited by Rhaide; 2013-01-17 at 09:56 PM.
    "When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all."

    -God (Futurama)

  14. #114
    I have a feeling that if Lei Shen tried to capture a legit titan he wouldn't be here to be a raid boss.

  15. #115
    Brewmaster Rhaide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roggles View Post
    I have a feeling that if Lei Shen tried to capture a legit titan he wouldn't be here to be a raid boss.
    YEP^10.

    Titans are explained to be the most powerful beings in existence in the WC lore, with the possible exception of Elune, we don't technically know for sure if she is stronger. If a cranky purple guy with bad hair can take one down, there's.... really no need for another expansion after we beat him I guess.
    "When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all."

    -God (Futurama)

  16. #116
    He looks similar to Thorim (bar all the torturous wounds from Lei Shen), SS of him on the 2nd page. http://media.mmo-champion.com/images...anCaptured.jpg

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaide View Post
    YEP^10.

    Titans are explained to be the most powerful beings in existence in the WC lore, with the possible exception of Elune, we don't technically know for sure if she is stronger. If a cranky purple guy with bad hair can take one down, there's.... really no need for another expansion after we beat him I guess.
    Erm... That's not all accurate as the Titan power level hasn't been properly explained at all, and it's also explained that Ra-Den was asleep. And his quotes imply he just doesn't seem to care all that much about his imprisonment.

    So really it seems to me to be more that Ra-Den let Lei Shen take his power without much resistance.

    And than there's the suggestion that the common Titan isn't on the same level of the Pantheon...

  18. #118
    Brewmaster Rhaide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    Erm... That's not all accurate as the Titan power level hasn't been properly explained at all, and it's also explained that Ra-Den was asleep. And his quotes imply he just doesn't seem to care all that much about his imprisonment.

    So really it seems to me to be more that Ra-Den let Lei Shen take his power without much resistance.

    And than there's the suggestion that the common Titan isn't on the same level of the Pantheon...
    The 'titan power level' has been clearly explained, at least insomuch as the specific titans who created/affected Azeroth's history. You can fairly easily surmise their power by comparing them to their opponents, most notably several old gods. In all the battles they had with the old gods, they were never defeated with the POSSIBLE exception of ONE titan, and no one knows for sure if he really died or not. So logic would dictate that titans > old gods, and since the old gods power is fairly well defined, we can interpret at least that titans are INCREDIBLY strong. Not something a mogu, no matter how powerful, could overcome alone.

    As for sleeping. I find it a little far-fetched (it was difficult not to use harsher language here) that someone people think is a TITAN, would be 'asleep' on guard duty... right... I can see the lore writer's meeting now.

    "Ok guys, how did the Thunder King take this Titan's powers? We have to come up with something good or it won't make any sense..."
    "I GOT IT, he was asleep!"
    "BRILLIANT".

    And as for titans being on different levels than the pantheon. Yes, you're absolutely right, by no means are all Titans as strong as the pantheon... however, as many (including most of the crowd who think's he IS a titan) have suggested, Pandaria is one of the most important places on Azeroth (even to the Titans), so why would they send a weaker being to guard it? Even if he's not pantheon level, he's up there for sure.
    Last edited by Rhaide; 2013-01-17 at 10:20 PM.
    "When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all."

    -God (Futurama)

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by KrakHed View Post
    Erm... That's not all accurate as the Titan power level hasn't been properly explained at all, and it's also explained that Ra-Den was asleep. And his quotes imply he just doesn't seem to care all that much about his imprisonment.
    If you are talking about his voice quotes, I didn't get that impression at all. He seems more like a guy that was locked away for so long he has gone insane, and wants to make other people suffer for the pain he went through. He even mocks the players for thinking that they "saved" him, because he does not care about being saved, only about getting revenge. Furthermore, the audio implies that Lei Shen was more powerful the Ra-Den, thus how Lei Shen defeated him and took his power in the first place.

  20. #120
    Titan apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaide View Post
    YEP^10.

    Titans are explained to be the most powerful beings in existence in the WC lore, with the possible exception of Elune, we don't technically know for sure if she is stronger. If a cranky purple guy with bad hair can take one down, there's.... really no need for another expansion after we beat him I guess.
    But if we have never meet a titan before we really have no idea what power they have. I remember reading that it took several titans to kill or subdue the old gods so I do not think they are that powerful.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

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