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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Some ppl seem to be forgetting a few things. 1: This warrior is lvl 90. The Druid/DK in question are 1/2 levels lower then the Warrior, respectively. Gear difference, not to mention the warrior has access to gear they don't. 2: This warrior could be sitting in Def stance. Especially if hes bad- Def stance allows you to easily pull 9 mobs of the same level and not die, while killing them at a slightly slower rate then normal. 2: higher lvl = higher miss chance, less damage going out. I also think Resil is affected by level (I.E a lvl 85 with no power will not do 40% less damage against a lvl 90 target, but like 50% or something. Could be wrong, I know armor, dodge, parry, miss chance works that way, a lvl 70 attacking a target with 20k armor will do 75% less physical damage against them, even though that 20k armor is like 40% less damage taken against lvl 90s)

    Now, with that being said, a warrior in second wind range only has 2 methods to heal above 35%- Victory Rush, if they kill you, and a single potion (You shouldn't be allowing them to get out of combat). Thus, you can both time your CDs, and possible burst him down.
    Read

    Quote Originally Posted by Zergin8r View Post
    EDIT, Tested this with 2 friends, an 89 Balance Druid and 88 Frost DK, cannot do enough DPS to kill a warrior who is in quest greens, we can get his health down 2-3% with Necrotic Strike but he heals back up again before the DK's runes are back up for more, even with the ability to recharge all his runes, we got him down maybe 10% and then he healed right back up.
    If the warrior was wearing decent lvl 90 gear, kiting around and blowing defensive abilities? Maybe he'd be hard to kill then. But the OP also claimed to be incapable of killing an essentially afk warrior in greens, so something else is obviously going on.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    The gap between level 88-90s this expansion is far bigger than you seem to understand with pvp power being one of the main factors.
    If the warrior is geared the way the OP describes he is barely hitting 300k hp, possible slightly more.

    at 35% that is roughly 105k hp, 3% of this = 9450 HP/S.

    Now 105k hp? My level 85! Boomkin, can burst about 45k on a player target, add to this Lunar procs and CD usage... if the warrior is as bad as stated, there is just NO way even with the dmg reduction that you cant outdps 9450 HP/s at lvl 89. You'd have to be terrible :S

    Anyone who cant burst through second wind needs to have a serious look in the mirror, unless the warrior is stacking resi like crazy, it should be no problems as long as you focus your burst the second you see the buff pop.

    Also in 5.2 the healing will be reduced in pvp, and the defensive stance dmg reduction will be down to 15%, in line with all other dps class dmg reductions.
    I find alot of classes OP, but warrior is not one I have any difficulties with, atleast not because of their survivability... their burst is a completely different story.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    The gap between level 88-90s this expansion is far bigger than you seem to understand with pvp power being one of the main factors.
    PvP isn't balanced around an 88 fighting 90s.

    The OP's topic, regardless of his level gap, really just boils down to a song we've all heard before: SW is OP, anyone else agree with me?

    Rather than sensibly accept the fact that a level gap in Mists, even as small as one level, makes a huge difference, he came here to bitch about the talent.

    My contribution to this topic was that, when things are on equal ground, Second Wind is not this unbeatable HoT from hell that renders even a 'terribad' warrior unkillable. That is hyperbole, that is nonsense, that is QQ from people who have the all-too obvious agenda of getting it nerfed because a warrior isn't a free HK anymore. Which they succeeded in doing, come 5.2.

  4. #44
    I love how people just want to read (and try to counter what they want) other than depend on true testing. Sure I was a bit biased, but I still ran a neutral test, based on what information I was given. A character with equal (or even lesser) gear even 2 levels below 90, hitting on a lvl 90 character with equal gear (meaning no raid or PvP gear, blues are allowed, although my test was with quest greens and dungeon blues) was still able to defeat a level 90 character. If you come up with other results, please post them, but, you might have to give me logs, since, although I didn't post mine, I log almost everything, so you would need to give me proof besides just your word, and I'll also provide mine. Since I already know what your real results will be, and your logs will prove if you cheated in any way. You people can spout all you want about what you THINK is true, without logs to back it up, you don't prove anything. And since I was pretty much ignored, although so far in this entire thread I was the only one to test this, you need to provide results. I don't care if you back his claim or try to deny it, if you can't give out logs, you are talking out of your ass.

    -Another Edit-
    I have found out, a guildie hasn't leveled his lvl 85 fully PvP geared Warrior, and we're going to test another extreme. His (Glad mind you) Warrior against a level 90 Boomkin, just to see if a last-expansion Warrior with quips can manage at least a while against a non-PvP geared Boomkin. This will be almost as far as I can take my tests. I have yet to run across 2 fully quipped last-season glads to round this up to an almost complete circle, but this is just within a few hours of even the OP, so I would need a bit to time to complete a full round of complete data.
    Last edited by Sparky_b; 2013-01-20 at 08:01 AM.

  5. #45
    Brewmaster Zaxio's Avatar
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    That is strange how i manage to pass SW on not bad geared 89 lv warrior with rogue lv 85 who dint have even 390 Ilv pve gear
    Till now i dint have ant problems to kill some warrior even few levels above me

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky_b View Post
    I'm pretty sure there's more to this story than the OP is telling. The only thing I can even think of as to why you can't out-DPS his Second Wind (if, as you say, you're getting around the high 40k range in DPS), is if you're missing him, and that's due to the level difference you two have. Even then, you wouldn't miss enough to cut your DPS down by 30k.

    I was curious, so I decided to test this out myself, wasn't a problem because I just so happen to have a Warrior (specced as prot and arms), and all I have are either quest gear or normal dungeon blues. Guildie has a boomkin he's working on, level is 89, he's in greens and dungeon blues. Results: Boomkin killed me. You aren't revealing something, and it's obvious. The boomkin DID have trouble once Second Wind was working, and yes it gave him a hard time, but even alone, without the help of anybody else, and me just standing there, he was still easily able to kill me.

    -EDIT- I'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt and I"ll try moving around and using defensive tactics like kiting and throw out the occasional CC instead of just standing there, maybe I'll get better results in your favor. But, imo, it's just going to delay my death by a small amount.

    Ok I can do 40k+ on dungeon bosses, this is down to less than 25k against players, the problem is where his Second Wind heals him between my 2.4 second Starfire casts, since Starfire does 12-13k non crit and he heals for 9k twice in that period I am literally doing nothing to him. What kind of gear was the boomkin you tested this with wearing? I only do each dungeon once to get the achievement so I am in 399ish with the 4 pieces of blue gear I kept from dungeon quests. We checked again and it seems the Deathknight is missing with 25-30% of his attacks, and is mostly 384 gear.

  7. #47
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VileGenesis View Post
    If the warrior is geared the way the OP describes he is barely hitting 300k hp, possible slightly more.

    at 35% that is roughly 105k hp, 3% of this = 9450 HP/S.

    Now 105k hp? My level 85! Boomkin, can burst about 45k on a player target, add to this Lunar procs and CD usage... if the warrior is as bad as stated, there is just NO way even with the dmg reduction that you cant outdps 9450 HP/s at lvl 89. You'd have to be terrible :S

    Anyone who cant burst through second wind needs to have a serious look in the mirror, unless the warrior is stacking resi like crazy, it should be no problems as long as you focus your burst the second you see the buff pop.

    Also in 5.2 the healing will be reduced in pvp, and the defensive stance dmg reduction will be down to 15%, in line with all other dps class dmg reductions.
    I find alot of classes OP, but warrior is not one I have any difficulties with, atleast not because of their survivability... their burst is a completely different story.
    I find it hard to believe you can pull that amount of burst on a player, but whatever...
    You seem to forget that haste, crit, mastery, etc require more points per level right? The blues you get at 88-89 are barely better then ds-hc gear, add in the scaling and suddenly you do a lot lower dps and they pretty much stated they are in gear worse then that...

    And the healing won't be reduced, it just won't heal when you are stunned.

  8. #48
    Plate (when it counts) + 25% damage reduction from defensive stance with no penalties (at least none that really count) + second wind = SKEEEEEL!

    Don't worry about it. Next patch, warriors won't be camping in def stance and will be a lot squishier.

  9. #49
    Thank you for the reply, and yes I'm skeptical, but I'd rather be proven wrong than just dismissing your claim. If I'm wrong (unlike almost everybody here in this thread), not only will you have proof you're right, but it can be claimed once and for all mathematically.

    I live in the US, and right now (can't believe I'm still awake actually), my tester is offline. So I'll have to wait a while. Once he gets on I can get you links to every piece of gear he has, and (sorry but I'd rather you know everything at once, so you can at least run sims), I'll also link everything I have as well. I also can't post his logs til he's online, I didn't get his side data-wise.

    For you other people: Just shut up or give real data. I say that, because once my logs get put in, all of you are wrong otherwise, so you don't need to give any of your incorrect data. "BLAH BLAH IS OP, BLAH BLAH NEEDS BUFF, BLAH BLAH IS FINE" Yeah? You got logs? Don't link me your AJ bullshit, because I'm higher ranked than almost all of your test data. Link logs or you can all just shut up.

  10. #50
    its people like the original poster that will make the warrior class unplayable next season. I don't blame the original poster though, i blame blizzard for giving in.

  11. #51
    Ok, sorry, I know for an American, this is either extremely early or I just woke up (the former). But during this fight, did you use CCs? Did you try to LOS him so you could heal up? Without your own logs, despite mine, there is a huge amount of thigs you could have done...... Did you use Hurricane? Did you (you're a boomkin, yes?) use Innervate? How much MP did you have at the end, was he able to run you oom to kill you? When he was in WS mode, was he able to keep you off of him, even at ranged? (since you are a ranged spec) Was he (despite you saying he was nub), doing some things right? Before I'm even able to post my other dude's logs, the guy I fought, he LOS'd me, he ran when he was in trouble, he knew when my CDs were down, etc. I asked all of that because earlier you mentioned you were a casual player. Nothing wrong with that, but before I have a complete set of data to throw at you (and if you're a casual guy, my army of info would just overwhelm you anyways), what did you do? If you could be as detailed or elaborate as you can, that would helps us all a huge amount.

    -Edit- early morning typos, sorry
    Last edited by Sparky_b; 2013-01-20 at 01:13 PM.

  12. #52
    Legendary! Treelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    You forgot warriors also have defensive stance, defensive cooldowns and a whole load of cc.
    And as said above, the warrior has a greater chance to avoid attacks due the level difference.... Not to mention that the difference between lvl 90 blues and sub-90 greens and blues is rather large
    The OP specifically said he was sitting there being a target dummy, in levelling greens. If you add the damage reduction of defensive stance they should still be able to kill him fairly easily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    There is no battle fatigue in anywhere 2 89s and a 90 would be involved in...
    Why wouldn't there? My L51 Rogue has it (just the char that I'm on atm), so they will; it doesn't specifically say works in BGs/Arena only either. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure everyone gets it when they hit people in any sort of PvP.

    Warrior is in levelling greens (300-320k hp max)
    He was sat there being a target dummy, i.e. Not doing anything
    Since he's in greens, he would only have the 40% base resi
    He -might- have used Def Stance.

    His near 50k dps, and the DKs DPS, including Necrotics, should be able to out damage Second Wind. As I mentioned in a previous post it would be at most 12k HPS if he was at 340k HP, less in the greens he is in.
    Last edited by Treelife; 2013-01-20 at 01:19 PM.

  13. #53
    everyone can outdmg second wind if they have gear you wont even notice he heals , but seeing you ppl say that you cant kill a 90warr as lvl below him thats lame. How will the warrior felt if he dies by someone that is bellow level then him with green gear . You are saying that its okay to die by level 89 or 88 while you are 90?

  14. #54
    Legendary! Treelife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowlurker911 View Post
    everyone can outdmg second wind if they have gear you wont even notice he heals , but seeing you ppl say that you cant kill a 90warr as lvl below him thats lame. How will the warrior felt if he dies by someone that is bellow level then him with green gear . You are saying that its okay to die by level 89 or 88 while you are 90?
    If they are terrible, yeah. The idea with PvP is that you learn or die, as it should be imo.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    If they are terrible, yeah. The idea with PvP is that you learn or die, as it should be imo.
    This is also why I'm trying to get to the bottom of this. Sure, most of your higher ranked teams are well aware of any sort of ability to look out for, but for this guy ( a self admitted casual player) that might not be the case. But til I can be certain and have my partner's logs, I'm not 100% sure this guy could have countered him with his skill set. A person who's well versed in PvP? Sure, I've seen both SW and the TFB procs to know exactly what to do. I'd rather not be "that guy" and tell the OP to L2P, at the very least, I could give him some data, tell him how to counter that stuff, turn his negative ideals into positives, but to do that, I need to know what he did. And when I have the complete set of my data, he will know how we beat it. Not only on a fundamental level, but a mechanic and math level.

  16. #56
    High Overlord Riordrian's Avatar
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    what itemlvl did you have at that time because 12-13k starfire noncrits seems a bit low for me
    while leveling my boomkin i did something like 18-20k non crits at 89

    edit: okay maybe that was me becouse of 2 mastery proc trinkets an reforging my gear to mastery
    Last edited by Riordrian; 2013-01-20 at 02:00 PM.

  17. #57
    Mechagnome Lushious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergin8r View Post
    Ok I can do 40k+ on dungeon bosses, this is down to less than 25k against players, the problem is where his Second Wind heals him between my 2.4 second Starfire casts, since Starfire does 12-13k non crit and he heals for 9k twice in that period I am literally doing nothing to him. What kind of gear was the boomkin you tested this with wearing? I only do each dungeon once to get the achievement so I am in 399ish with the 4 pieces of blue gear I kept from dungeon quests. We checked again and it seems the Deathknight is missing with 25-30% of his attacks, and is mostly 384 gear.
    Well there you have it..
    DS Heroic gear is 410, while Dread Wastes gear is around 437 as far as I can remember, while blues reach 450 and you 2 have gear in the 384-399 marker... You basicly have gear that is outdone by gear avaible to you in Valley of the 4 winds (86 zone) and the previous expansion, seriously why do you wonder your damage is shit?

  18. #58
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    The numbers do not add up. Let's assume he has 340k HP (a LOT more than someone in quest greens would have), that would be 10,200 HPS from Second Wind. Add in Battle Fatigue that's 8,670 HPS. If you want to add base Resi that would be what, 12k HPS?

    If you cannot even do that much damage between you, Second Wind isn't the problem. End of story.
    Your math is terrible. With a HPS of 8670 it would take 14450 DPS to take him down. Counting in defensive stance it would take 19266 DPS. Even then there is a level difference which counts for an additional DPS requirement. 20k DPS against someone afk may be possible in lvl 89, but not a moving target with shockwave and charge keybound.

    Conclusion? Warriors are overpowered, and have been so for a while here in MoP. Certain undergeared classes stands no chance against a warrior, and it's even worse when you are fighting one above your level.

    Thank god it will be fixed in next patch, though I am not really caring a lot about 1v1 scenarios.

  19. #59
    Mechagnome Lushious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    Your math is terrible. With a HPS of 8670 it would take 14450 DPS to take him down. Counting in defensive stance it would take 19266 DPS. Even then there is a level difference which counts for an additional DPS requirement. 20k DPS against someone afk may be possible in lvl 89, but not a moving target with shockwave and charge keybound.

    Conclusion? Warriors are overpowered, and have been so for a while here in MoP. Certain undergeared classes stands no chance against a warrior, and it's even worse when you are fighting one above your level.

    Thank god it will be fixed in next patch, though I am not really caring a lot about 1v1 scenarios.
    Sorry, but that does not = overpowered.

    This whole thread is based on a level 89 druid in Jade Forest gear (399 ilevel) who complains he cannot kill a Warrior

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by foxHeart View Post
    Sounds like a case of bad-on-bad violence, tbh.
    Warriors are made of glass until Second Wind kicks in and they pop to Def stance.

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