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  1. #1
    Dreadlord the0o's Avatar
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    I cannot get my head around BRM tanking :(

    Morning/Evening All

    Former DK tank here, am i guess i need an idiots guide to brewmaster. I attempted to learn the spec while soloing Black Temple (so i can have fights long enough to test me but not strong enough to kill me) and i was getting no where. I was taking MORE damage than i normally do in my WW spec.

    Rotation :

    Jab or keg smash if multiple targets.
    Tiger Palm.
    BOK or Breath of Fire

    Use Purifying Brew to kill off a large stagger Dot
    Use Elusive Brew to get that extra dodge

    ?? Profit??


    Help me figure out what am missing, I LOVE tanking and Death Knights are in a horrible place right now (Glass cannons in PVP, Unholy feels chunky and bloated, Blood is still amazing) and my only level 90 is my Monk.

    "Humility defeats pride, Master Yang has preached. Pride defeats man"


  2. #2
    Since I don't theorycraft or go really in depth with numbers I'll just run off some basics.

    Use keg smash whenever it's off CD, tons of chi there.
    Jab when 40 energy and KS is on CD.
    Expel harm if you're not 100%

    KEEP THAT SHUFFLE UP! Prioritize your BoK but don't forget to use Guard when it's off CD or a big hit is coming.

    Tiger Palm as filler.

    Don't use BoF unless they are affected by the dot, and even at that it's better to not use it, for it could be used for BOK.

    People have their own opinions and preferences but I use my elusive brew around 8-11 stacks.

    Purify your stagger at high yellow or red.

  3. #3
    There is no Breath of Fire *OR* Bok.

    The answer is ALWAYS BoK.

    BoK gives Shuffle, which is what ALLOWS you to even take a hit as a tank. THAT is the basis of BrM tanking.

    Read the sticky. Seriously.

  4. #4
    The Patient
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    Check out the stickied guide for BrM. It's made with noobs in mind.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arisoh View Post
    There is no Breath of Fire *OR* Bok.

    The answer is ALWAYS BoK.

    BoK gives Shuffle, which is what ALLOWS you to even take a hit as a tank. THAT is the basis of BrM tanking.

    Read the sticky. Seriously.
    That's... a bit of a generalisation. Really. BoF has its place for Brewmasters.

    Example 1: you've just used Leg Sweep on a bunch of mobs. Your Guard is up, but Shuffle is not. You have PLENTY of time to get off a BoF, jab twice or KS once and BoK to get Shuffle up before they come out of stun.

    Example 2: Shuffle has >10 sec on it's duration. KS is coming off cooldown soon, or is available. Feel free to BoF.

    Example 3: trash pack full of casters, or mobs with "uninterruptable" abilities (e.g. Whirlwind mobs in H-MSP). Glyphed BoF is a terrific AoE interrupt.


    Do note that all of this is assuming you'll actually get proper use out of BoF (ie AoE packs that can be set on fire.)
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkaszal View Post
    That's... a bit of a generalisation. Really. BoF has its place for Brewmasters.

    Example 1: you've just used Leg Sweep on a bunch of mobs. Your Guard is up, but Shuffle is not. You have PLENTY of time to get off a BoF, jab twice or KS once and BoK to get Shuffle up before they come out of stun.

    Example 2: Shuffle has >10 sec on it's duration. KS is coming off cooldown soon, or is available. Feel free to BoF.

    Example 3: trash pack full of casters, or mobs with "uninterruptable" abilities (e.g. Whirlwind mobs in H-MSP). Glyphed BoF is a terrific AoE interrupt.


    Do note that all of this is assuming you'll actually get proper use out of BoF (ie AoE packs that can be set on fire.)
    Since I started tanking, I've found that BoF is pretty negligible, even glyphed. KS is better for dps and mitigation pruposes.

    In example 1, I'd roll back and Clash in, Keg Smash and then BoK. Or hell use a cooldown to buy time to get Shuffle going. Why waste the 2 Chi on BoF when you say that Shuffle isn't up?

    Example 2, I'd still take extending Shuffle over BoF, or hell, use Chi Wave and help my healer out.

    Example 3, Leg Sweep or Clash. Neither cost any Chi that would be better put to use getting Shuffle or extending it.

  7. #7
    I'd have to agree with Arisoh on this. I find that BoF is really only useful on dungeon mobs where I know there's no way I'm going to die, and on Wind Lord Mel'Jarak's adds *IF* my shuffle isn't going to fall anytime soon and I feel like completely decimating the dps' dps. I've never used the glyph, there are much better options to use. It just kinda sits there begging to be used, but it's the ugly stepchild no one talks to. Plus most of the adds in T14 raids are immune to the dizzying haze debuff.

  8. #8
    If you want the initial pull threat security of BoF on aoe packs, spec for Rushing Jade Wind. Starting rotation of:

    Expel (pre-pull) > KS > RJW > Jab > TP > Guard

    You're pretty much done as far as threat is concerned, and RJW puts shuffle up. The boost it gives to SCK is nice and all, but its not the reason i have the talent. Its pretty much better then BoF in every way (except glyph) for BrM.

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arisoh View Post
    Since I started tanking, I've found that BoF is pretty negligible, even glyphed. KS is better for dps and mitigation pruposes.

    In example 1, I'd roll back and Clash in, Keg Smash and then BoK. Or hell use a cooldown to buy time to get Shuffle going. Why waste the 2 Chi on BoF when you say that Shuffle isn't up?

    Example 2, I'd still take extending Shuffle over BoF, or hell, use Chi Wave and help my healer out.

    Example 3, Leg Sweep or Clash. Neither cost any Chi that would be better put to use getting Shuffle or extending it.
    Erm, example 1 was just after you've AoE stunned everything with Leg Sweep. Don't think you got the gist of that.

    And with Example 3, you're missing the point that it's a spammable, on-demand AoE interrupt. It interrupts things which are normally interrupt protected, especially some channeled spells. Yeah, you can stun them, and that works, but Leg Sweep and Clash have cooldowns.

    Look, the point I'm making is simple: against multiple targets that can be burnt, BoF is a DPS gain and therefore a boost to your statue Guards. Yes, having Shuffle up when you get hit is priority 1, but you CAN work BoFs into AoE situations without letting Shuffle fall off.

    Even Wind Lord. Granted, I BoF maybe once every 30 sec when I'm not madly PB'ing and have spare Chi, but it's still used. And in Heroics - where the OP is at the moment - there's no point in building up large buffers of Shuffle because a) shit dies so fast and b) the amount of trash that can force you to PB can be counted on 1 hand.

    If you don't feel comfortable using BoF, that's fine. I'm just saying that you CAN use it without losing your mitigation as long as you play smart, and you WILL benefit.
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  10. #10
    So.
    You are actually suprised you take more dmg in your tank specc during fights that barely give you vengeance then on your ww specc when mosts fights in bt last less then a minute anyway?

    Well.

    Anyways from your questions alone i can see you havent taken a look at the sticky thread about brm tankiing yet so might start there.

  11. #11
    It might help to think about comparing your abilities between DK and Monk. Also, boiling it down to some major priorities.

    First, Keg Smash. This is by far your most efficient way to spend energy. It does great damage, it is your most efficient Chi generator, it applies Dizzying Haze. This sucker is job one as Brewmaster. It is probably more important to Brewmasters to use Keg Smash as often as possible than it is for DKs to use Death Strike as often as possible. Just as a DK is always looking for a way to Death Strike as often as possible, the Monk is looking for a way to Keg Smash as often as possible.

    That leads to a couple of things. It means you want to use Keg Smash on CD. It means you don't want to overspend energy on Jab, and then have no energy. It means you always want to be attacking a target (KS doesn't give Chi if you don't hit anything). It means you need decent Hit and Expertise (one of many reasons for BM to stack these stats).

    Next, Shuffle. Remember, BM doesn't get an armor modifier like bears do from their stance. We are ACTUALLY tanking in leather gear, not leather gear that's been buffed to plate-level armor by our stance. Shuffle is our armor equivalent. However, its a self buff we have to constantly maintain. That leads to the corollary that if you EVER let shuffle fall off, you are going to get smashed in the mouth, HARD. Once you look at the reality of the short duration of a single shuffle application, and the fact that it can stack infinitely, it quickly figures that most of your Chi should be spent on Blackout Kick to keep up Shuffle.

    However, also consider Stagger. Thanks to Stagger, Brewmasters actually take more damage than any other tank (from a hit that lands, we make up some of that ground with high avoidance). It does really smooth out spike damage. However, you can't let it get too high or you will start to get to dangerous stagger levels. Thus, Purifying Brew is your second most important way to spend Chi.

    One other Chi Spender is Guard. Guard is huge. Imagine if Icebound Fortitude had a 30 second CD, scaled with your AP (and thus, Vengeance), but cost a Frost and Unholy Rune. That is Guard. A big part of BM is finding when to use Guard properly. It absorbs magic and physical (unless glyphed, that glyph is very situational). Without this guy, we'er still pretty squishy and have fewer and weaker CDs than other classes. This is (part of) how you live through trash pulls, or big dragon breath attacks, or Will of the Emperor smacking you around, etc, etc.

    Guard, Stagger and Shuffle together mean that you don't really have much leeway for other Chi spenders. That means Breath of Fire is generally out - you can pretty safely take it off your bars. Tiger Palm is completely free for BM, so no reason not to keep it up.

    As an aside, a user's guide to using Energy and Chi: Energy is a constantly self-refreshing resource. That means, if you let iyour energy cap, you are losing resources! Its just like Rune CDs for DKs - DKs essentially have 3 little energy bars they try to keep off CD (by spending runes). Chi is like Runic Power, except it is much more important for Monks to use Chi efficiently than for DKs to use RP. RP is more of a dump resource and for big CDs, Chi is *central* to Monks, (whereas Rune use is much more central for DKs than energy use is for Monks - not that it isn't important, just that if you have to, you'd rather let your energy cap than waste Chi).

    Finally, Elusive Brew. You can think of this guy as our active mitigation equivalent (shuffle isn't really so much active mitigation as it is a fundamental necessity for not going splat - it is far beyond what other tanks deal with in terms of potential splatitude :P). These stacks build up as you go. Make sure to not let Elusive Brew stacks cap, but also try to use Elusive Brew intelligently. With EB up, our avoidance becomes quite ridiculous.

    Keep Keg Smash on CD, keep shuffle up on yourself, keep your Stagger debuff low, use Elusive Brew and Guard intelligently, don't waste Chi or Energy. The rest is details.
    Last edited by Felade; 2013-01-19 at 01:51 PM.

  12. #12
    All I can really say is cap expertise at 15% and life gets a lot easier.

    It can be debated either way as to if it's "required" or not (I'm not really up on current theory crafting) but the fact is, if you cap hit + expertise so you never miss or get dodged/parried then you'll be amazed at how much easier it is to keep shuffle up while weaving in BoF (and even Chi wave/Zen Sphere).

    Having Keg Smash get parried when your shuffle timers getting low can be a right pain in the ass!

  13. #13
    I must admit I hadn't really investigated the real inner workings of BrM tanking before this thread, and I am absolutey gutted after reading it. I've only tanked heroic dungeons, but I was blissfully unaware of the need for Shuffle to be 100% active. instead, I was doing mad AOE dps with keg smash/spinning crane kick/breath of fire, and usually about 12k hps during dungeon with guards, chi wave and expel harm.

    but it seems in order just to be viable I need to spend my Chi on constant Blackout Kicks, meaning barely any Chi Waves or Breath of Fires. I think I'll just stick to Windwalker
    I think i can give up choose talent in this level?
    because if i am not choose this level。 i can have 20% blood more than choosen..
    GREAT BLZ.
    warlock now became a guy use 5 level talents VS other 6 level.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by squidbear View Post
    I must admit I hadn't really investigated the real inner workings of BrM tanking before this thread, and I am absolutey gutted after reading it. I've only tanked heroic dungeons, but I was blissfully unaware of the need for Shuffle to be 100% active. instead, I was doing mad AOE dps with keg smash/spinning crane kick/breath of fire, and usually about 12k hps during dungeon with guards, chi wave and expel harm.

    but it seems in order just to be viable I need to spend my Chi on constant Blackout Kicks, meaning barely any Chi Waves or Breath of Fires. I think I'll just stick to Windwalker
    Yes and no.... mostly yes

    On Longer fights, you can stack shuffle indefinitely.... when you see shuffle sitting at around a minute, Guards up/on CD and you have Chi to burn, it's pretty safe to weave in BoF/Chi Wave and the like. Unfortunately, this is only on bosses (or soloing) where you don't really need BoF nor Chi Wave. In AoE situations, where you're trying to get as much AoE threat as possible to stop the retarded DPS from pulling and dying (aka LFR/LFD) where you could really benefit from BoF... you don't have the time/chi to use it!

    For this reason, I'm not overly fond of BrM tanking... definitely my least enjoyed tanking class. It's just that first 30seconds or so of every fight where we're scrambling for resources and take as much damage as a Rogue until we get ontop of things that really puts me off.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    All I can really say is cap expertise at 15% and life gets a lot easier.

    It can be debated either way as to if it's "required" or not (I'm not really up on current theory crafting) but the fact is, if you cap hit + expertise so you never miss or get dodged/parried then you'll be amazed at how much easier it is to keep shuffle up while weaving in BoF (and even Chi wave/Zen Sphere).

    Having Keg Smash get parried when your shuffle timers getting low can be a right pain in the ass!
    Honestly, I only go to 10% expertise and I never have problems keeping Shuffle up. And why you'd even keep Breath of Fire on your bars is beyond me (unless it's a macro to open up an emulator to play the SNES game.) The ability doesn't do enough damage to merit the cost in chi, you're better off usin' it on somethin' else.

    On the subject of expertise, I do notice parries, but that's because they happen so infrequently that it's impossible not to notice them. They so rarely happen at an inconvenient time that gearing for an extra 5% expertise ends up feelin' like a waste to me, and I'd rather funnel those points into haste or crit, depending on whether or not I'm comfortable with my level of energy regen.

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squidbear View Post
    I must admit I hadn't really investigated the real inner workings of BrM tanking before this thread, and I am absolutey gutted after reading it. I've only tanked heroic dungeons, but I was blissfully unaware of the need for Shuffle to be 100% active. instead, I was doing mad AOE dps with keg smash/spinning crane kick/breath of fire, and usually about 12k hps during dungeon with guards, chi wave and expel harm.

    but it seems in order just to be viable I need to spend my Chi on constant Blackout Kicks, meaning barely any Chi Waves or Breath of Fires. I think I'll just stick to Windwalker
    Well, it depends on the content you're doing vs the gear you're wearing.

    ie when I first started tanking Heroics I would do just that - focus entirely on spending Chi on mitigation and damage-dealing taking the back seat. Nowadays I can rofl my way through all the Heroics while being much more lax with Shuffle on trash, and spending more time on BoF and SCK. Unless I know it's a pull that can get a little hairy if the healer's asleep - some of the SM trash, for instance - what I'll usually do once I get set up is spending my KS Chi on BoF and the Jab/SCK Chi in between on BoK. Thus, I end up with Shuffle up around 6 seconds out of every 8. It's not 100%, but who cares when I've outgeared it? My Guards are beefier, my crit rate and thus EB uptime is much higher, and my rather chunky DPS means shit dies a lot faster.

    Now, in raids it's a different story. You won't be using BoF much (if at all), because a lot of stuff is immune to the DoT and it's a single-target DPS loss anyway. Chi Wave is something you can weave in once your Shuffle has stacked up to >20sec (doesn't take too long); not on cooldown, necessarily, but it's really good for self-healing after a spike such as a dragon breath because you'll usually be the lowest on HP at that time. Have you used Purifying Brew much at all yet in dungeons? Trust me when I say that when you tank raids, it becomes something you're hitting constantly rather than once in a blue moon.

    Also note that in 5.2, Chi Wave is going to be free of charge, but with a 15sec CD. Which means you WILL be using it on cooldown, unless it clashes with KS.
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  17. #17
    Dreadlord the0o's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Long and Amazing Post
    Thank you, I read your post, Re-read the sticky (Sorry should have posted that in the OP, I did read the guide like 3 times and it didnt "click" for me) ran a few LK heroics and did a few CATA 5 mans to get into the grove, and your guide helped me get things going.

    BRM feels like early DK tanking, kinda smooth but a screw up will cost you. I like it. Blood is kinda faceroll now and Death Knights need a few QOL changes (unholy may need a complete overhaul).

    Thank you again.

    "Humility defeats pride, Master Yang has preached. Pride defeats man"


  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinchib View Post
    Check out the stickied guide for BrM. It's made with noobs in mind.
    That's a problem I have though. Alot of the great BM Tanks I see are gemming for Crit or Haste and not hitting the 15 Exp cap. I mean, I can -try- and replicate that but its not something I want to do without fully understanding it. I'm also finding a severe lack of Monk's in game even with a massive population on my server so I don't really have anyone to pull from or bounce ideas off of and nor can I find anything to explain that kind of gemming from BM's.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian23 View Post
    That's a problem I have though. Alot of the great BM Tanks I see are gemming for Crit or Haste and not hitting the 15 Exp cap. I mean, I can -try- and replicate that but its not something I want to do without fully understanding it. I'm also finding a severe lack of Monk's in game even with a massive population on my server so I don't really have anyone to pull from or bounce ideas off of and nor can I find anything to explain that kind of gemming from BM's.
    Assuming you're actually looking for conversation regarding gemming:

    The reason I stop at 10% expertise, is because the higher it goes, the less you benefit from it. The odds of you seeing a parry at 14.99% expertise are ridiculously low, for example, especially if you're only looking for parries when you absolutely don't want them (i.e. need chi for purifying brew). After 10%, I don't feel that the itemization points spent really benefit me as much as pumping those points into haste or crit would.

    As for haste, once you hit a comfortable level of energy regen (which is dependent on the player, my preference is 14/s) you don't need any more haste. After you get there, you just funnel things into crit, and once you're seeing a steady stream of elusive brew procs, you can go into mastery. I was at 14 e/s, but I dropped a bit to get my LFR set helm and chest equipped for my 4 piece. I like the extra guard absorb on the guards thrown out on my raid, so I took a small hit to my haste.

    I'm an alchemist, so I tend to use elixirs, as they last 2 hours. I use crit/armor elixirs until I just need the extra bump in health from a stam elixir. I don't tend to use agi ones, but I do keep them around. I'm just partial to the raw crit I get from the mad hozen elixir. Raid buffed, I sit around 35% crit or so, and I'm rather pleased with it.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Teevo View Post
    Assuming you're actually looking for conversation regarding gemming:

    The reason I stop at 10% expertise, is because the higher it goes, the less you benefit from it. The odds of you seeing a parry at 14.99% expertise are ridiculously low, for example, especially if you're only looking for parries when you absolutely don't want them (i.e. need chi for purifying brew). After 10%, I don't feel that the itemization points spent really benefit me as much as pumping those points into haste or crit would.

    As for haste, once you hit a comfortable level of energy regen (which is dependent on the player, my preference is 14/s) you don't need any more haste. After you get there, you just funnel things into crit, and once you're seeing a steady stream of elusive brew procs, you can go into mastery. I was at 14 e/s, but I dropped a bit to get my LFR set helm and chest equipped for my 4 piece. I like the extra guard absorb on the guards thrown out on my raid, so I took a small hit to my haste.

    I'm an alchemist, so I tend to use elixirs, as they last 2 hours. I use crit/armor elixirs until I just need the extra bump in health from a stam elixir. I don't tend to use agi ones, but I do keep them around. I'm just partial to the raw crit I get from the mad hozen elixir. Raid buffed, I sit around 35% crit or so, and I'm rather pleased with it.
    So, you wouldn't suggest getting the 15%? I've just seen it religiously put that you should get to it and it's always seemed excessive to me.

    Only been a Monk at 90 for about a week though, so I'm still in search of some more of the indepths of the class.

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