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  1. #1
    Pandaren Monk Evela's Avatar
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    Hunter scaling - what's up?

    I recently my Hunter (BM) and my Warlock (Aff) through SimulationCraft. One thing I noticed was that the stat weights for the Warlock's secondary stats were about 1.5-2 times as high as the ones on the Hunter. Agi/Int was about the same. SV stat weights were even lower, with Agi still having the same amount.

    Does this mean that Hunter scaling is significantly worse than Affliction scaling? I also ran my Fury Warrior through (all 3 have the same ilvl, by the way), and it showed as having the same stat weights as Warlock (on average, crit of course pulling a lot ahead).

    Kind of worries me. While I've heard people talk about Hunters scaling badly, I never though it would be this bad (is it?). I really like my Hunter and I would like to play it, but just seeing my DPS dropping more and more behind with every new patch would ruin it.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    What Simulationcraft is good for: comparing different pieces or sets of equipment, comparing different jewels, comparing different reforges, comparing different priority lists,....
    What Simulationcraft is NOT good for: comparing different classes dps, comparing different classes stat scaling, comparing different spec's dps

    Note: Pre MoP hunter scaling was bad. By taking away our meele weapons they did a pretty good job at fixing it. Is the scaling problem completly gone? At least for now it looks fine to me and shouldn't be a reason for you to worry about.

  3. #3
    Scaling is tied strongly to both spells and gear stats.
    I think we have to wait patiently, until Blizzard releases some 5.2 gear and finishes patch notes for each class.
    Every time you say "I don't believe in fearies" one of they dies...

  4. #4
    the fact is compared to some of the other classes we scale badly yes. It's not that we scale bad, it's just little worse then others. And i am talking here about 500+ ilvl. This is more or less breakpoint for some classes that start to outshine hunters. That's what i noticed at least.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ishyhunt View Post
    the fact is compared to some of the other classes we scale badly yes. It's not that we scale bad, it's just little worse then others. And i am talking here about 500+ ilvl. This is more or less breakpoint for some classes that start to outshine hunters. That's what i noticed at least.
    hunters are outshined right now in all aspects and at all gear levels... Fact is hunters need more then what we got with the band aid they gave is after 5.1...


    Its sad when a 5% AP increase and a 100% increase to a DoT ability only manage to get you into the dottom part of the middle of the pack.
    Last edited by Nemesis003; 2013-01-21 at 01:42 PM.

  6. #6
    Pandaren Monk Evela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoran View Post
    What Simulationcraft is good for: comparing different pieces or sets of equipment, comparing different jewels, comparing different reforges, comparing different priority lists,....
    What Simulationcraft is NOT good for: comparing different classes dps, comparing different classes stat scaling, comparing different spec's dps

    Note: Pre MoP hunter scaling was bad. By taking away our meele weapons they did a pretty good job at fixing it. Is the scaling problem completly gone? At least for now it looks fine to me and shouldn't be a reason for you to worry about.
    Honestly, can't see how you can argue that comparison of stat weights between classes shouldn't at least at some level represent the difference in scaling. Since Hunter (obviously) scales much worse from secondary stats, Hunter's overall scaling is subpar. Stat weight = amount of DPS gained from adding 1 of a stat (i.e. 1 haste).

  7. #7
    Perhaps I'm out of the loop but I've never known pet scaling to be impressive. I tend to see a theme each expansion where I can go BM for the first raid tier and then end up feeling my pets and getting left in the dust. Then I go Surv and never look back until the next expansion launch.

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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by PuppetShowJustice View Post
    Perhaps I'm out of the loop but I've never known pet scaling to be impressive. I tend to see a theme each expansion where I can go BM for the first raid tier and then end up feeling my pets and getting left in the dust. Then I go Surv and never look back until the next expansion launch.
    pet scaling was buggered with 5.0, blizz said they knew about it and were going to fix it... fact is they have done nothing to fix it, they are softer then ever even though they are more important then ever.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    Honestly, can't see how you can argue that comparison of stat weights between classes shouldn't at least at some level represent the difference in scaling. Since Hunter (obviously) scales much worse from secondary stats, Hunter's overall scaling is subpar. Stat weight = amount of DPS gained from adding 1 of a stat (i.e. 1 haste).
    Unlike any caster class, some of our skills scale with weapon dps aswell. So you need to take that into account aswell... The reason why you can't compare simulationcraft's results for two different classes is, that the results don't represent the truth. They are an estimation at best. The Simcraft class models are a theory how a class works. Nothing else. Every class works differently, so you need a different model for all of them. Every model was programed by a different person, with different style and tendencies how to fix a problem. To give you an example, why do you think there are so little raiding frost mages, when on a single target fight Simcraft tells us that they are the best dps specc of them all?

  10. #10
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    Hunter's are fine right now (save for MM). The only class that is out of whack (still) is mages. The rest are "fine". Warlocks are also a little over the top but not as bad.

    As for the future, it is still too soon in the PTR to know where everyone will land with balancing.

  11. #11
    well affli-WL is by chance one of the speccs that does scale really well, because they have a badass mastery.
    the amount of damage they do with their dots (and spells that are indirectly depenent on the dots) is huge, an scales with 3.125% per mastery.
    SVs magic portion of the total dmg is similar, or only slightly higher than affli WLs dots (+indir. spells) but scales with 1% dmg per mastery.

    but weapon dependant classes do still tend to scale better with the wep than casters (even though their weps have a ton of spelldmg), so it may make sense that they scale a bit better with other stats. dunno.
    we'll see soon enough I guess...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    hunters are outshined right now in all aspects and at all gear levels... Fact is hunters need more then what we got with the band aid they gave is after 5.1...


    Its sad when a 5% AP increase and a 100% increase to a DoT ability only manage to get you into the dottom part of the middle of the pack.
    We are not outshined in all aspects and all ilvls. Its like you are saying the world is flat while you havent stepped outside the house yet.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Hikashuri View Post
    We are not outshined in all aspects and all ilvls. Its like you are saying the world is flat while you havent stepped outside the house yet.
    you saying what??? cause i am more progressed then you are... Good hunters know we are not "fine"

  14. #14
    Hunters are pretty good right now. Only fights I really suck on are gimmicks like damage buffs that ignore my pet.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    you saying what??? cause i am more progressed then you are... Good hunters know we are not "fine"
    Oh this card... I'm more progressed than you (15/16H) and I agree with Hikashuri. We are fine. We're outshined by OP affliction locks and arcane mages, but that is being addressed in 5.2.

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  16. #16
    Don't listen to Nemesis he is just a whiny little cunt. All his posts are whine, whine, whine, complain, complain, complain. Not even sure why he still plays a hunter or even the game for that matter.

  17. #17
    The Patient Relis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valisen View Post
    Don't listen to Nemesis he is just a whiny little cunt. All his posts are whine, whine, whine, complain, complain, complain. Not even sure why he still plays a hunter or even the game for that matter.
    Glad I ain't the only one to notice this..

    I don't think we're in a bad place at the moment though, sure, we could be better off (who doesn't want to be OP these days?).. I'm just worried about the scaling through late 5.2 / future patches..

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Relis View Post
    Glad I ain't the only one to notice this..

    I don't think we're in a bad place at the moment though, sure, we could be better off (who doesn't want to be OP these days?).. I'm just worried about the scaling through late 5.2 / future patches..
    I'm sure everyone who browses the forums picks up on his complaining. We're fine, but a buff wouldn't make us overpowered either.

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  19. #19
    Historically hunters have always scaled badly in xpacks. Gods at the start, bad at the end and after enough complaining we get some flat damage buffs to make us viable. Then PTR of next xpack comes, we mass report there will be problems and Bliz don't listen.
    "All this has happened before, and all this will happen again"

    Since we're at the start of an xpack and are allready mediocre, it's good to worry. Once again all that matters to us is getting ilvl for more agi. What got worse than previously is the importance of looting your ranged slot. Dps is now more dependent on ranged slot than it was on ranged+melee slot combined. Not only are the ranged on annoying bosses, this also means there are no more half weapon upgrades by looting either ranged or melee.
    So you'll have hunters who loot the ranged slot and tell everyone else they're noobs and hunters are fine; and those with bad luck who can't shine on any fight where multiple other classes in their raid keep doing better than them and feel completely frustrated and ununderstood by the people from their own community calling them noobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    you saying what??? cause i am more progressed then you are... Good hunters know we are not "fine"
    You mean your raid is more progressed.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Oh this card... I'm more progressed than you (15/16H) and I agree with Hikashuri. We are fine. We're outshined by OP affliction locks and arcane mages, but that is being addressed in 5.2.
    Pfff I hate affliction locks, so much single target, so much aoe. Just too good
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