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  1. #41
    Hey guys,

    So I spoke with Brightleaf a bit about the whole simming Mastery>Haste but how most top end Ele shamans still reforging Haste>Mastery.

    Basically, problem is the stats become skewed when you reforge all the way to mastery, leaving such a low amount of haste that all of a sudden the sim thinks haste is a lot better. It's been that way for quite awhile. You have to have a balance between the two and reforging Haste>Mastery at our gear levels gives us the perfect balance of not having Lava Burst cast time go below GCD and still give us a good amount of mastery, 40%+. Balance has been shown to be favored, basically.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by JKim View Post
    Hey guys,

    So I spoke with Brightleaf a bit about the whole simming Mastery>Haste but how most top end Ele shamans still reforging Haste>Mastery.

    Basically, problem is the stats become skewed when you reforge all the way to mastery, leaving such a low amount of haste that all of a sudden the sim thinks haste is a lot better. It's been that way for quite awhile. You have to have a balance between the two and reforging Haste>Mastery at our gear levels gives us the perfect balance of not having Lava Burst cast time go below GCD and still give us a good amount of mastery, 40%+. Balance has been shown to be favored, basically.
    This is exactly what reforge plots do for you.
    Last edited by Shauren; 2013-01-20 at 10:17 AM.

  3. #43
    I think, even without sim, mastery prio for EB is a no brainer.... Besides, i noticed i'm get much higher dps with PE then EB. Don't think a sim will show ya that one...

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Shauren View Post
    Pretty much like this


    and you will get output like this



    Personally, I don't run it for 3 stats at once because I have no idea how to read the resulting graph (which additionally has no numbers on it(
    Seriously, what does this even mean, except that Mastery > Haste? How I should conclude what # is the right balance between Mastery and Haste?
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  5. #45
    Mechagnome Eruionmel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    I know I fail for asking this, but what is the final conclusion...I read almost every post but I have close to no clue how simcraft works. At what point does Mastery overlap haste if it ever does?

    And should I take EP or EB with said stats?

    I'm not rich enough to reforge/gem all stats so I can't just go and test it :<
    If you reeeeeally don't want to sim yourself, here's what I would recommend:

    If EB:
    Reforge haste until ~5500 haste.
    Reforge mastery past 5500 haste.
    At around 490ilvl (arbitrary guessing, here; it's possible the actual point may be once mastery hits 5500, or 8500 with buff), begin to balance your reforging. Note that, when comparing mastery and haste, mastery will appear to be 3k higher than it really is, since we have the mastery buff baseline.

    If PE:
    Reforge haste. (So much easier, LOL.)
    Note: Next tier (my guess) we will begin reaching the point where the amount of haste we get will cause our LvB to be GCD capped often enough that haste will drop below mastery even for PE. The only way you'll be able to know when that happens is if you're simming yourself, since it will probably happen before LvB actually hits 1 sec without haste buffs.

    All of this is probably slightly wrong on certain fronts, and the best way to really know is to SIM YOURSELF.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 11:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Seriously, what does this even mean, except that Mastery > Haste? How I should conclude what # is the right balance between Mastery and Haste?
    The graph shows that at his current gearing, he would see a (freakishly tiny) DPS increase if he were to reforge 600 mastery into haste, but NOT if he reforged everything from mastery into haste. Not really any point, though, because the graph shows that his current gearing (0 on the scale) is basically just as good.

    (Do feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, by the way.)
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  6. #46
    The more haste you gain, the higher your mastery will be worth. The higher mastery you gain, the more haste will be worth.
    You should make sure to almost never have haste go over 50% (1 sec gcd and under 1 sec lavaburst timer). Ofcourse it can happend during BL/trinket proc, but you get the idea.
    Values also depends on what race you are, if you're a troll, haste will likely be worth abit less. It's usually recommended to keep a balance between both of the stats. If you want perfect resulst you should sim with reforge plots like shown above. You see there step by step how much dps you gain/loose if you go lets say 100 more from haste to mastery, and so on.
    I myself recommend EB for almost all fights (I use PE for wind lord and amber shaper HC) But it's up to you, you should atleast master both specs. The only time you should channel emperor is if you can somehow do eight times more then the amount of dps during that duration.
    But like many have said, download simulationcraft and try it out, i know it can sound complicated/scary, but it's really really easy when you learn how to use it, and a great tool in general.

    Hope it helps!

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Seriously, what does this even mean, except that Mastery > Haste? How I should conclude what # is the right balance between Mastery and Haste?
    This has value only for my gear and my choice of talents (echo and EB) - the point of me posting the graph is so you can see how the graph may look, not to use mine.
    The fact that its for my character is really important, you might get completely different results, which is why everyone here is telling you to sim it yourself

  8. #48
    in the graph you also see how much dps gain/lose it is for a specific reforge value. so overall it as about 500dps best/worst

  9. #49
    MY recommendation would be: reforge to haste > mastery > crit until cast time of LvB gets under 1 second for LB. The problem currently is that EB builds may have haste proccs, you may have a haste procc trinket and many elemental shamans may switch to EM now (it's really strong right now on PTR).

    PE focussed builds should pull haste ahead of mastery until you have to many casts/instant casts under 1 sec (actually even pushing crit closer and fionally ahead of mastery).

    Edit: Simmig BIS for EB + EotE, haste already pulled ahead. Reforging showed a potential of 300 dps by reforging some haste to mastery (though reforging more haste to mastery is a dps loss). So as so many others told: sms show mastery able to pull ahead of haste, but for the moment, you can totally reforge everything to haste > mastery and then run your reforge plot to reforge a few hundred haste to mastery.
    Last edited by Klatar; 2013-01-20 at 06:10 PM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    MY recommendation would be: reforge to haste > mastery > crit until cast time of LvB gets under 1 second for LB. The problem currently is that EB builds may have haste proccs, you may have a haste procc trinket and many elemental shamans may switch to EM now (it's really strong right now on PTR).

    PE focussed builds should pull haste ahead of mastery until you have to many casts/instant casts under 1 sec (actually even pushing crit closer and fionally ahead of mastery).
    Uh, no. EB builds should not be pushing haste ahead of mastery, especially when taking EM.
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Eruionmel View Post
    Uh, no. EB builds should not be pushing haste ahead of mastery, especially when taking EM.
    No haste stays your strongest stat for quite some time. There's a point where haste lowers your cast times of LV below 1 sec, meaning haste has no real benefit. Before that point, haste stays your strongest stat.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    No haste stays your strongest stat for quite some time. There's a point where haste lowers your cast times of LV below 1 sec, meaning haste has no real benefit. Before that point, haste stays your strongest stat.
    ...You didn't read the thread, did you?
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Eruionmel View Post
    ...You didn't read the thread, did you?
    Looks like you didn't, assuming you said that no EB build pulls haste ahead of mastery. That was your statement.

  14. #54
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    Unless they changed how haste worked again, isn't there no such thing as a haste soft cap or break point on any class that refreshes hots/dots before they fall off? Last I checked Elemental Shaman fell under this category but it's been a long time. Unless I was missing something the only real haste break point left is the gcd cap which isn't really attainable anymore outside of certain situations (could be wrong, I haven't played in a couple years).

    i.e (using fake numbers): at 480 haste flame shock tics every 2.52 seconds over 10 seconds and gets 3 tics, but when you refresh it it just adds the remaining last tic duration to the spell meaning it will tic 4 times in 10.08 seconds. At 500 haste it tics every 2.5 seconds meaning when you refresh it, it will tic 4 times every 10 seconds. Even though there is an extra tic of damage over the normal duration of the spell, the actual damage done is not increased anymore than going from 460 to 480 (not counting DR).

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Eruionmel View Post
    Elemental ignores all haste breakpoints. Getting an extra tick of flameshock is an incredibly minuscule damage increase. You either stack haste or mastery, depending on PE/EB choice.
    Im having Primal Elementalist, Should my stat priority be Haste>Crit>Mastery? Or haste>Mastery>Crit

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dotmore View Post
    Im having Primal Elementalist, Should my stat priority be Haste>Crit>Mastery? Or haste>Mastery>Crit
    Haste > Mastery > Crit. And it will stay like that for at least the remainder of this tier.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 07:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Looks like you didn't, assuming you said that no EB build pulls haste ahead of mastery. That was your statement.
    Haste is not the top stat for EB builds once you're over a threshold (somewhere around 5500 haste). Mastery is better than haste past that point. You stated that haste remained the best stat for EB, and I said you were wrong. My statement is backed up by the entire thread, yours is not. And seeing as I've been posting the entire way through it, I'm pretty sure we can assume that I've read it.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Eruionmel View Post
    Haste > Mastery > Crit. And it will stay like that for at least the remainder of this tier.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 07:33 PM ----------



    Haste is not the top stat for EB builds once you're over a threshold (somewhere around 5500 haste).
    Is that figure before or after the 5% Haste Buff? (Elemental Oath, Moonkin Aura etc...)

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenturse View Post
    Is that figure before or after the 5% Haste Buff? (Elemental Oath, Moonkin Aura etc...)
    The 5% doesn't get added into the number count. It gets tacked onto the overall percentage. So, in other words, no.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Eruionmel View Post
    Haste > Mastery > Crit. And it will stay like that for at least the remainder of this tier.
    Your elemental gains absolutely nothing from mastery. Haste and Crit will always be ahead of Mastery with a PE build.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahdik View Post
    Your elemental gains absolutely nothing from mastery. Haste and Crit will always be ahead of Mastery with a PE build.
    Your elemental's damage is not so significant a part of your overall damage that it alone can cause crit to surpass mastery. You still cast your own spells, and they all do benefit from mastery. Trust me, most people using PE will sim mastery much higher. Mine is something like 1.55haste > 1.39mast > 1.25crit. In actuality, the fact that we value haste so much higher actually causes our mastery to be worth more, since the spec as a whole tends to favor equality between haste and mastery.
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