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  1. #1

    Monk, Good/Bad sides listing

    Hello all,

    I just want to have your feelings with the current monk gameplay plus the incoming 5.2 changes.

    I have the feeling that 5.2 changes does not really address monks issues.

    Bad things :
    - Jab, Too weak, We have to push Jab 100000000 times for ressources and this does not match the monk spirit in my point of view
    - Crackling Jade, are you using this spell often ? honnestly i use it 1% of the time maybe ? too weak
    - Spining fire blossom, why is it so slow to reach the target ? can't it be like ice javelot ? fast violent ?
    - Roll, very funny but can't stop whenever i want so it makes it difficult to reach the target
    - Overall burst is bad
    - Blackout Kick, why its animation is so slow ? i have the feeling that my monk needs 3 hours to rotate his leg, can't it be more direct and violent like RSK ?
    - No relation between capabilities, Monk should chain actions, and each action should unlock other skills, in my point of view the monk grow stronger and faster with each actions and each actions make him perform other stronger actions, actually you need to spam JAB JAB JAB JAB JAB, RSK , JAB JAB JAB ....
    - i will edit with more details later.
    - Fist of fury, this is too weak, i won't say more ....
    - Transcendence, i don't use it that much to be honnest ! i don't find situation where i can use it efficiently with the small cast time.
    - Tiger Palm, too weak, i just use it to refresh the buff, each skill should unlock another skill, that way i would use it to do chain actions and look more to a monk.
    -Tigereye Brew, well this is good and bad, you need to have 10 stacks to boost your damage, right, in a BG i will just ask Robert the warrior to give some seconds for i gather those 10 stacks.


    Good things :
    - Flying serpent kick, i love it
    - Disable, nice but hard to use. bug ?
    - Touch of Death, nice but should be like an exec....


    What are the good / bad things in the monk gameplay in the current implementation.

  2. #2
    The vast majority of your issues are either personal preference ('does not match the monk spirit'), borne of ignorance (transcendence and CJL definitely have their uses; not a frequent thing, but they're very useful in the right situations), or simply really minor/insignificant issues ('slow animation' on BoK? Wat?).

    5.2 is going a HUGE way to addressing our actual issues, such as weakness to stuns for Brewmasters, proper cleave capabilities for Windwalkers, and more.

    This post just seems like you're really struggling to complain about something, anything at all, when honestly? We're in a good place and getting better in 5.2.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisi View Post
    - Touch of Death, nice but should be like an exec....
    Always thought it would help if they made it scale with bosses in a way where you can at least get it off before they die. Something like the threshold increases by your health * # of levels above you the mob is. So you'd be able to get it off once the raid boss hits ~ mil life left or something.

    Outside of the things already being tweaked in 5.2 for BrM i'd just like to see Avert Harm made not sucky with a much longer range.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  4. #4
    This.. I don't even.

    This seems more about how you would perceive a Monk in combat then actual game-play/abilities and their uses. I don't understand the point you're trying to make, or what it is you want from others.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Pisi View Post
    JAB JAB JAB JAB JAB, RSK , JAB JAB JAB ....
    Congratulations, you're regularily wasting 50% of your Chi with that rotation.
    As you also seem to have overlooked the value and pretty cool design of Fist of Fury for example, it's hard to take anything of what you're saying seriously.

  6. #6
    - Jab too weak. JAB JAB JAB JAB JAB RSK etc
    You clearly dont know how monks and their mechanics work. Play another class
    - Crackling Jade, are you using this spell often ? honnestly i use it 1% of the time maybe ? too weak
    Not to be part of the rotation. Use when you are in ranged and want to build chi. Don't forget it knocks back players when they reach you.
    - Spining fire blossom, why is it so slow to reach the target ? can't it be like ice javelot ? fast violent ?
    It's already instant cast, it moves like chaos bolt. If it were instant cast and instant hit, it would be way too good, thats why its being nerfed in 5.2
    - Roll, very funny but can't stop whenever i want so it makes it difficult to reach the target
    Use it more often and you should be able to predict or else class isnt for you
    - Overall burst is bad
    5.2
    - Blackout Kick, why its animation is so slow ? i have the feeling that my monk needs 3 hours to rotate his leg, can't it be more direct and violent like RSK ?
    what... -.-'
    - No relation between capabilities, Monk should chain actions, and each action should unlock other skills, in my point of view the monk grow stronger and faster with each actions and each actions make him perform other stronger actions, actually you need to spam JAB JAB JAB JAB JAB, RSK , JAB JAB JAB ....
    Play another class? All class have a unique resource/rotation/mechanic system. clearly monk isnt your class.
    - Fist of fury, this is too weak, i won't say more ....
    Still amazing for pvp
    - Transcendence, i don't use it that much to be honnest ! i don't find situation where i can use it efficiently with the small cast time.
    Transcendence is fucking amazing are you kidding me.
    - Tiger Palm, too weak, i just use it to refresh the buff, each skill should unlock another skill, that way i would use it to do chain actions and look more to a monk.
    Tiger Palm should only be used to refresh debuff and you should be relying on the free proc to renew. Imagine rogue's expose armor. same concept.
    -Tigereye Brew, well this is good and bad, you need to have 10 stacks to boost your damage, right, in a BG i will just ask Robert the warrior to give some seconds for i gather those 10 stacks.
    Changed for 5.2
    - Disable, nice but hard to use. bug ?
    Because its hard to use its considered a bug. right.
    - Touch of Death, nice but should be like an exec....
    It is like an execute, to top that off it always deals the opponent's full health.[COLOR="red"]

  7. #7
    How can you say they need a redesign (in the other thread you started the same as this one) they have been around on live servers for like less than 4 months!

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisLisi1982 View Post
    How can you say they need a redesign (in the other thread you started the same as this one) they have been around on live servers for like less than 4 months!

    The other thread was a mistake, duplicate..

    And by saying JAB JAB JAB JAB many times, this is just to say that you have to JAB too many times, spam..., that does not mean you need to JABx10 to perform an RSK.
    I know very well Monk mechanics.

    If you love JABBING all the times doing 1 damage then ok.

    From my point of view a monk should have skills linked to each other, for example a combo action to unlock a finisher, punch+kick+double punch+black out kick unlock a combo action which would be a finisher, this would be a monk.

    Sorry by the way if my english sometimes isn't that good.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Pisi View Post
    From my point of view a monk should have skills linked to each other, for example a combo action to unlock a finisher, punch+kick+double punch+black out kick unlock a combo action which would be a finisher, this would be a monk.
    You say you don't like the 'jab jab RSK' mechanic, then go on to say the above quote... Isn't the above quote exactly what Monks are at the moment? You jab a couple times, then hit with a heavy attack, or a 'finisher'?

    At any rate, it's all entirely personal opinion. I personally love the feel of the class and think it's entirely suited to a Monk. There's unfortunately not much that can be done with this sort of feedback: For example, if Blizzard were to change the Monk to suit you better, they risk annoying those who currently really enjoy the class. No real gain to be had there unfortunately.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Pisi View Post

    And by saying JAB JAB JAB JAB many times, this is just to say that you have to JAB too many times, spam..., that does not mean you need to JABx10 to perform an RSK.
    I know very well Monk mechanics.

    If you love JABBING all the times doing 1 damage then ok.

    From my point of view a monk should have skills linked to each other, for example a combo action to unlock a finisher, punch+kick+double punch+black out kick unlock a combo action which would be a finisher, this would be a monk.
    That, plus you want moves to be more violent.. sounds like you want to be playing Mortal Combat or something.

  11. #11
    Old God MerinPally's Avatar
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    Jab = 2 chi. That solves your non existant issue. If it was 1 chi per jab I'd agree but it's not. The idea of a dual resource system is to play off each other and they do, if they were different one would be silly overpowered.

  12. #12
    How is BOK animation slow? It's the same length as a global.

    I agree that burst is bad, but then again, I figure windwalkers to be more like combat rogues to how they deal damage. Combat rogues are not about burst, they are more about constant, sustained damage, not big bursts every few seconds.

    I'll halfway give you Tiger Palm/Tiger Power buff. The only times I ever use it in a fight is either to apply the buff, refresh it, or if combo breaker procs is. There should be something more. But, then again, going back to a combat rogue, the only time I ever used rupture was to refresh it. But that's the same with any class that has a buff for themselves or a debuff or DoT on the target, the ability only gets used to refresh whatever it is.

    Jab is the main Chi builder. Expel Harm can be useful to help healers, so that gives Windwalkers 2, aside from Chi Brew. That's the core purpose of Jab, what's so wrong about that? It's the same as Sinister Strike, Mutilate, Backstab, Hemorrhage for rogues, Shred and Ravage for kitty druids, judging for ret & prot pallies. Problem is, all 4 classes use the combo point system. They can name it Chi, or Holy Power, or Combo Points, but they are all basically the same damn thing. You use energy (or mana for pallies, but it might as well be energy for them), to build the second resource, using 1-2 abilities based on the spec. The only way for Jab to be anything BUT a Chi builder is for monks to have an entirely new system. Until that happens, it's fine.

  13. #13
    Keyboard Turner
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pisi View Post
    The other thread was a mistake, duplicate..

    And by saying JAB JAB JAB JAB many times, this is just to say that you have to JAB too many times, spam..., that does not mean you need to JABx10 to perform an RSK.
    I know very well Monk mechanics.

    If you love JABBING all the times doing 1 damage then ok.
    Seems like you don't know anything about monk mechanics. Jab is part of the mechanics and is just the way to generate chi. Same as sinister strike/dispatch/whatever is the way to generate combo points. If you don't like it, go play something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pisi View Post
    From my point of view a monk should have skills linked to each other, for example a combo action to unlock a finisher, punch+kick+double punch+black out kick unlock a combo action which would be a finisher, this would be a monk.

    Sorry by the way if my english sometimes isn't that good.
    I think you should play Tekken if you want to do punch kick double punch kick combos.

  14. #14
    Well i give th op this. The idea of actually chaining skills is a nice one and can work pretty nicely if done correct.
    Not sure if it would work amazingly in wow tho. But it can make a nice gameplay.
    The rest of the post is pretty much adressed by others can only be summarized with: "What."

  15. #15
    - Jab, Too weak, We have to push Jab 100000000 times for ressources and this does not match the monk spirit in my point of view
    Irrelevant, personal preference issue. I think it makes sense that our feet hit harder than our punches.

    - Roll, very funny but can't stop whenever i want so it makes it difficult to reach the target
    Just takes more practice.

    - Overall burst is bad
    We don't have big burst CDs, its true, but we make up for that over a long boss fight, and our short term burst (for things like killing sparks on Elegon) is actually pretty good (RSK and BoK, as far as basic rotational abilities go, hit really hard).

    - No relation between capabilities, Monk should chain actions, and each action should unlock other skills, in my point of view the monk grow stronger and faster with each actions and each actions make him perform other stronger actions, actually you need to spam JAB JAB JAB JAB JAB, RSK , JAB JAB JAB ....
    Again, personal preference.

    - Fist of fury, this is too weak, i won't say more ....
    It is actually one of our highest DPS abilities. It is tricky to pull off on CD, though. The movement issue isn't even the trickiest part. Its trying to find a spot in the rotation where you will not cap on energy or let RSK come off CD.

    -Tigereye Brew, well this is good and bad, you need to have 10 stacks to boost your damage, right, in a BG i will just ask Robert the warrior to give some seconds for i gather those 10 stacks.
    He won't have much of a choice if he's stunned and disarmed.

    Honestly, it sounds to me like you had some sort of personal image of what the Monk class should be, and now you're upset that Blizzard didn't take your design whole-cloth and put it in the game as-is. I think you either need to get over that image or try a different class.

    The original title did get me thinking. I'm pretty happy with the class overall, but I thought it was an interesting idea. More along the lines of strengths and weaknesses. From a DPS perspective:

    Strengths

    Mobility, Mobility, Mobility
    Defensive CDs
    Short term burst (over a few GCDs)
    Strong AOE DPS
    Good single target DPS
    All the basic melee tools: a few snares, disarm, interupt, stun, a gap closer, as well as a silence
    Decent self-healing
    Soon to be: Cleave!

    Weaknesses

    Fists of Fury is a bit difficult to keep on CD
    Fists of Fury and Energizing Brew don't play well together
    Weak set bonuses
    No big burst CD
    Is a melee class
    CC isn't quite as good as some other classes
    A lack of utility, mostly thanks to the complete underwhelming-ness of Zen Meditation

    Another way to look at it: the perspective of QQ from other classes over the years.

    A rotation that isn't all about white/poison damage (Rogue)
    Combo points on the Monk (Rogue)
    Not dependent on big CDs for our damage (Ret)
    Snares and gap closers (also Ret)
    Defensive CDs without going defensive (Warrior)
    AOE isn't annoying (I'd say this is/should be Enh QQ)
    Offensive CDs don't do double duty as defensive CDs (also should be Enh QQ)
    CC on a short CD (Enh and Warrior)
    Resources aren't too difficult to manage (DK Runic Empowerment)
    No position requirement (Feral)
    Last edited by Felade; 2013-01-19 at 02:42 PM.

  16. #16
    Stood in the Fire Slirith's Avatar
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    Only thing I really dislike is ToD...Wish it was usuable at 25%(or 20%...whichever) like every other execute(keep it at 10% for pvp though). Hate getting into ToD range and by the time I get 3 chi the boss is at like 50k HP :S

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHpPKgi-niI
    How I feel about healers that try to DPS

  17. #17
    Old God apepi's Avatar
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    Ill agree with you on Crackling Jade failures, it is not a reliable spell/knockback. It only knockbacks in melee range but it knocks back when you damage the person so it can miss the knockback. It is very rare in pvp that I even see it knock someone back. They should just make the knockback range or make the glyph do that....also speaking of the glyph it is also fail, I mean it only increases the range by 5 yds?Really?
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  18. #18
    Only thing I really dislike is ToD...Wish it was usuable at 25%(or 20%...whichever) like every other execute(keep it at 10% for pvp though). Hate getting into ToD range and by the time I get 3 chi the boss is at like 50k HP :S
    The problem here is that Monks don't actually have an Execute. ToD is not an execute; its how we keep up with burst classes on trash :P It just *looks* a lot like an execute.

    Ill agree with you on Crackling Jade failures, it is not a reliable spell/knockback. It only knockbacks in melee range but it knocks back when you damage the person so it can miss the knockback. It is very rare in pvp that I even see it knock someone back. They should just make the knockback range or make the glyph do that....also speaking of the glyph it is also fail, I mean it only increases the range by 5 yds?Really?
    CJL is for Mistweavers to knock back melee and do Eminence healing/generate Chi from range. It has less use for WW. Welcome to playing a 3 role hybrid!

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Pisi View Post
    - Overall burst is bad

    - No relation between capabilities, Monk should chain actions, and each action should unlock other skills, in my point of view the monk grow stronger and faster with each actions and each actions make him perform other stronger actions, actually you need to spam JAB JAB JAB JAB JAB, RSK , JAB JAB JAB ....
    Wanting more burst and at the same time wanting to chain together skills to gradually increase damage kind of contradict each other
    These all seem like personal preferences

  20. #20
    Old God apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    CJL is for Mistweavers to knock back melee and do Eminence healing/generate Chi from range. It has less use for WW. Welcome to playing a 3 role hybrid!
    I have been playing druid since bc, the knockback is total fail. I have seen it not work more then it has worked even when the target gets in melee range of me, The inly way it works is if you cast it when they are in melee range of you already and you have to damage the person to it to knockback, It is total range and if you think this spell is working...idk what yo tell you....I have been on multiple instance when I am trying to push someone off in melee range and it does not work.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

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