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  1. #1

    Legitimately Worried about Later Tiers

    When Mists first launched, I leveled and was playing my Warrior before my guild sort of disintegrated right as we were starting to raid (one of the oldest guilds on the server, had been doing 10 mans for the past expansion and a half, and wanted to get back into 25 mans, but couldn't fill the raids). I was in heroic dungeon gear, like everyone else. On average, my warrior was pulling about 60k DPS. Some people were higher, some were lower, but everyone I raided with was just about in that range, except for a handful of terrible recruits we tried out.

    It's been a few months since then, and I decided to get on my Warlock and try to get some Tier 14 in before 5.2 hits.

    Last night, I got him to 90, crafted full 450 contender's silk, plus the JC rings and neck, and grabbed the 450 staff from the Arena scenario. All gear reforged and enchanted properly save for shoulder inscription, lightweave embroidery (forgot I was a tailor until I was looking at my armory during break at work XD) and spellthread (and obviously, I'm not about to put Jade Spirit on a 450 staff). I also still have a couple of low slots to fill (cloak and 1 trinket are still greens, helm is 442) Only self buffed and not in a party, I was pulling 35k on the target dummy, and somewhere in the area of 40k in five mans, with burst capability somewhere in the 60k's. According to simulationcraft, this is about right for my gear/enchants.

    The thing is, when I hop into 5 mans, I already feel completely worthless because people in raid gear are pulling 100-120k DPS. That's a 300% to 400% DPS difference between fresh 90's in pre-heroic dungeon gear and people in gear from the first raid tier of the expansion.

    I've never seen such a huge difference during the first tier.

    If this trend continues, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the final tier for mists generates upwards of 400-500k DPS. That's more than 10 times the damage of a fresh 90. How is someone even supposed to compete when someone does 1000% of the damage you're capable of doing? Granted, I'm sure there will be SOMETHING to catch people up just a little bit more quickly later on than the current options (hopefully nothing on the caliber of the Hour of Twilight heroics, though), but still...

    Damn.
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  2. #2
    In PvE it's not about competition, it's about killing a boss or clearing a dungeon.

    Also, in order to get into later tiers of raiding you will have to gear trough LFR. You will probably need 480+ ilvl to even get into the 5.2 LFR.

  3. #3
    That is definitely concerning. I've always been in favor of a numbers/gear score deflation, and now I am more for it than ever before.

  4. #4
    The numbers have always been like this.

    Larger numbers just give the appearance of larger ratio.

    Start of Wotlk, people doing 2-3k, End of Wotlk, 20k+ 1000% increase.

    Cata Start 10k, End 50k+ 500%ish increase.

    Nothing changes, this won't affect much.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Noctifer616 View Post
    In PvE it's not about competition, it's about killing a boss or clearing a dungeon.
    Yeah... about that. Serious progression raiding, if you're going to DPS, you sure as hell better be competitive. Else you lose your raid spot. But that's beside the point.

    Also, in order to get into later tiers of raiding you will have to gear trough LFR. You will probably need 480+ ilvl to even get into the 5.2 LFR.
    Not the point I was trying to make at all.
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  6. #6
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veyne View Post
    If this trend continues, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the final tier for mists generates upwards of 400-500k DPS. That's more than 10 times the damage of a fresh 90.
    That's a bit much. WotLK is the only expansion where you ended up doing 10-15x higher dps in the last tier compared to the first, due to the excessive gear scaling. This won't be the case in MoP, as haste/crit/mastery won't go even nearly as high. 200-250k is probably the max dps a T17HC geared will reach. Bursts of 500k might be possible, but not sustainable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolercaust View Post
    That is definitely concerning. I've always been in favor of a numbers/gear score deflation, and now I am more for it than ever before.
    NO!
    Last edited by Voyager; 2013-01-11 at 03:36 PM.

  7. #7
    The intended way to catch up slightly gear wise right now is to progress through LFR, keep in mind that T14 LFR raids are getting their drop rates significantly increased.

    Once you're in about 480 ilvl, you will start seeing numbers a lot closes to the otehr people who are in raid gear sitting at 490ish.

    You shouldn't have problems finding a guild, because guilds will look to see what kind of gear you have, and if it's not to low, most will have no problem gearing you up if you're a good player.

    Otherwise, I don't think fresh 90's should be able to compete with people who spend the time and dedication to deck their character out in full endgame raiding gear.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Asthreon View Post
    The numbers have always been like this.

    Larger numbers just give the appearance of larger ratio.

    Start of Wotlk, people doing 2-3k, End of Wotlk, 20k+ 1000% increase.

    Cata Start 10k, End 50k+ 500%ish increase.

    Nothing changes, this won't affect much.
    You know, you're right. But maybe I was underestimating final tier numbers, because the difference in the first tier alone has never been this big. (Well, I didn't raid Tier 11, so I don't know how that went).
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  9. #9
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veyne View Post
    You know, you're right. But maybe I was underestimating final tier numbers, because the difference in the first tier alone has never been this big. (Well, I didn't raid Tier 11, so I don't know how that went).
    It has been, during 4.0 most people did 6-7k dps while good players did 15k dps, it went up to 20-30k in 4.1

  10. #10
    I'd love to be pulling 500k dps at the end of the expansion. "Hello Mr Lich King, you might as well drop that mount now to save you the embarrassment."

  11. #11
    wrath: 2-3 -> 20k
    cata: 6k -> 50k+
    mop: 30k -> ?

    I see some sort of pattern here, maybe it's the first time you geared up so late?

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire Zenko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctifer616 View Post
    In PvE it's not about competition, it's about killing a boss or clearing a dungeon.

    Also, in order to get into later tiers of raiding you will have to gear trough LFR. You will probably need 480+ ilvl to even get into the 5.2 LFR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thehealbus View Post
    The intended way to catch up slightly gear wise right now is to progress through LFR, keep in mind that T14 LFR raids are getting their drop rates significantly increased.

    Once you're in about 480 ilvl, you will start seeing numbers a lot closes to the otehr people who are in raid gear sitting at 490ish.

    You shouldn't have problems finding a guild, because guilds will look to see what kind of gear you have, and if it's not to low, most will have no problem gearing you up if you're a good player.

    Otherwise, I don't think fresh 90's should be able to compete with people who spend the time and dedication to deck their character out in full endgame raiding gear.
    You people need to read the OPs content before commenting about it.

    OT: Even as a tank im feeling that trend.

    When I was lvling back in September my healer friend told me we might see 1mil unbuffed hp before the expansion is over. I laughed at him. But looking back at it now I think he might be right.

    I had about 400k hp (2 stam trinks) when i dinged 90 with ~440 ilvl gear. 50 ilvls later and im sitting at 600k (2 stam trinks). I'm sure there are fully heroic tanks with at least 700k hp unbuffed and we still have 2/3 more tiers of gear to grab.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Thehealbus View Post
    The intended way to catch up slightly gear wise right now is to progress through LFR, keep in mind that T14 LFR raids are getting their drop rates significantly increased.
    This isn't a point I'm unclear about or try to refute. Right now, even the difference between regular Tier 14 and heroic Tier 14 is pretty big, though not alarming.

    Otherwise, I don't think fresh 90's should be able to compete with people who spend the time and dedication to deck their character out in full endgame raiding gear.
    I probably shouldn't have used the word "compete." I didn't mean literally competing on relevant progress content. But there's a big psychological impact when you try your damnedest to perform the best you possible can, even in silly little five mans, and someone's whipping out numbers 3 to 4 times as much as yours while not particularly trying very hard.

    It's extremely demoralizing.

    Gearing up to catch up is a simple concept, and I don't need it explained to me. I'm not worried about the big differences on a personal level, I'm good with another progression guild looking to fill a couple of ranged spots who would likely not care that they'd have to gear me up a bit, but I figured I'd at least try and get into full heroic dungeon gear with some rep pieces before I drag their meters down too terribly.

    I'm simply empathizing with others who are just hitting the level cap. The difference in numbers for the first tier of raid content just shouldn't be so huge, in my opinion. =/
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  14. #14
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qly View Post
    wrath: 2-3 -> 20k
    cata: 6k -> 50k+
    mop: 30k -> ?

    I see some sort of pattern here, maybe it's the first time you geared up so late?
    Wrath actually peaked at 30-40k. World First LK HC kill was done by people doing over 40k dps.

  15. #15
    I expect that there will be measures in place to help people gear up quickly, but I am hoping to see the stat squish in the next expansion. Providing it's something less controversial than Mists (say, a Legion expansion), then there should be room for the "ok, guys, here's the big change to come to terms with..."

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenko View Post
    You people need to read the OPs content before commenting about it.
    His post talks about the difference in numbers between someone in 440 ilvl gear and 490 ilvl gear. And that is true, the gap is huge, but we only see it in 5 mans. It is very unlikely that someone with ilvl 460 will start raiding in 5.2 raids with people that are 490+. He will most likely go do LFR and gear up to get to 480+ and then start raiding.

  17. #17
    Ye the percentage is more or less the same it always were but since the starting number is already big the diference in absolute terms is greater, its kinda crazy how fast your dps goes up on MoP, Im a rogue I was pulling like 70k dps in 485sh gear and now that IM 495sh Im getting to the 100k mark wich is a ridiculous dps jump for 10 ilevel of gear lol, Im going well over 170 k on heroic elegon now with easy for instance while on the beginign of the raiding tier I was barely doing 105 k (on normal mode caus ei wasnt doing H Elegon yet) or so.

  18. #18
    Brewmaster Csunforgiven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    It has been, during 4.0 most people did 6-7k dps while good players did 15k dps, it went up to 20-30k in 4.1
    There were players doing 25K+ well before 4.1, check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-14HHdoQI just as an example video. During 4.2 (4.1 didn't offer any real power increases whatsoever, don't forget), it was ~30K+ that was expected from everyone, and by the end of 4.3 it was 50K+ if not more (The best players were hitting 60-70).

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    It has been, during 4.0 most people did 6-7k dps while good players did 15k dps, it went up to 20-30k in 4.1
    My example wasn't even based off of "most people" vs "good players." I've been playing this game for a long time, and I might not be world top-level skilled, I still know my stuff.

    If I were going to go with a "most people" vs" "good players" scenario, "most people" would probably be closer to 15-20k right now, as a fresh 90.

    With your numbers, 15k was average for a fresh good player. Hell, I particularly remember beating up a target for 13.5k as Destruction. Going up to 20-30k in 4.1 was a matter of a 33-100% increase over two tiers. We've got a 400% increase within a single tier right now.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Reakash View Post
    There were players doing 25K+ well before 4.1, check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a-14HHdoQI just as an example video. During 4.2 (4.1 didn't offer any real power increases whatsoever, don't forget), it was ~30K+ that was expected from everyone, and by the end of 4.3 it was 50K+ if not more (The best players were hitting 60-70).
    Given I was a rogue and therefore had the super overpowered Fengs of the Father I was pulling around 65k on Ultraxion on by the end of Cata, good times lol.

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