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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Faeglendir View Post
    The legendary gem is disabled in challenge mode.
    Im pretty sure its not http://imgur.com/XtJDD,KHJFw

    Armories
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Pacer/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...paich/advanced

    For referance the relic of chi ji gives more int than any other healer trinket in the game inside challenge modes but its not worth almost 600 int. I also have int enchant on bracers on one char and mastery on the other but its still only about 300 int total with the trinket. I cant figure out where the remaining int comes from so im going to asume the gem works but is scaled down.

    EDIT: Nevermind I looked into it further and there seems to be a 67 int discrepancy in the end when all things are considered. Only problem is that 67 int difference should not exist.
    Last edited by Pacer; 2013-01-18 at 09:21 PM.

  2. #22
    The Patient
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    I'll share my experiences with challenge mode with you guys. it's been a while since I last did one as we pretty much rushed it as soon as we had the appropiate gear, but one thing i noticed was that with raid gear we did get a significant improvement.

    As the one thing that does not change are your hit caps (hit/exp).
    Therefore, with more raid gear, you get more secondary stats, therefore more stats from higher ilvl gear as less are wasted from reforge/gems.

    In b4 people say: but stats scale down, the hit/exp values do not scale down, therefore less are scaled down in total. Bit of a strange one to explain but i'm sure you guys will understand what I mean .

    Gems are another factor to consider here also.

    Whilst the sha gem is disabled, other gems are not, and raid gear in general has more sockets therefore more stats once again.

    TLDR: Raid Gear (that is optimised for you > 463 gear).

  3. #23
    For normal gear slots we're pretty much equal.
    But there are some pieces that aren't fully dependant on ilvl, for instance Darkmoon trinkets which outshine heroic raid trinkets sometimes!
    Tier bonus is disabled.
    Not sure bout legendary gem, as I still have blue weapon (at 498 equipped ilvl, GG RNG) but the extra prismatic socket does make slight difference.
    Raid gear usually has more sockets on it than blue hc gear.

  4. #24
    Also, if you're looking for a good trinket for challenge modes and you happen to be alchemist, definitely go with Zen Alchemist Stone (2/2 upgraded). It is already almost as good as 489/496 trinkets, but unlike these, it doesn't get scaled down, making it one of the best dps trinkets for challenge mode. Probably right after Darkmoon Card.
    Shaman - Hunter - Monk - Druid - Warlock - DK - another Shaman - one more Shaman

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    Im pretty sure its not http://imgur.com/XtJDD,KHJFw

    Armories
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Pacer/advanced
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...paich/advanced

    For referance the relic of chi ji gives more int than any other healer trinket in the game inside challenge modes but its not worth almost 600 int. I also have int enchant on bracers on one char and mastery on the other but its still only about 300 int total with the trinket. I cant figure out where the remaining int comes from so im going to asume the gem works but is scaled down.

    EDIT: Nevermind I looked into it further and there seems to be a 67 int discrepancy in the end when all things are considered. Only problem is that 67 int difference should not exist.
    I'm curious what you think any of that stuff you just linked proved.

    Walk into a challenge mode with a legendary gem equipped, change it for a 463 item, watch your intellect change.
    OH WAIT. It won't, because legendary gems are disabled in Challenge modes.

    Also, your gloves are 458 on one, aka, doesn't scale up to 463. Giving you your int difference.

    For what it's worth, no clue if the prismatic socket on sha touched weapons is disabled, but the 500 int one is.

  6. #26
    So in summary:

    - A 463 item perfectly itemised is better than a higher level one with subpar optimisation.
    - Raid gear can be better if it has more gem slots since this gives you a bigger stat budget to play with.
    - Raid gear can also be better if it has hit on it since hit does not get scaled down. This gives you a little leeway to cheese an extra few stat points out of a set of gear.
    - Set bonuses as well as the 500gems on sha touched weapons are disabled.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamez View Post
    hmmm yeah assuming the Sha weapons with the Sha gem has a higher edge
    Sha touched Weapon sockets and set bonuses do not work in CMs but the actual sockets themselves do (example: my belt has 3 sockets in it)

  8. #28
    Tier/ilvl/legendary gems, they are all disabled.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurgosh View Post
    [...] most tier gear gives up a gem socket for the tier bonus.
    This is untrue, set bonuses are free.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    So in summary:

    - A 463 item perfectly itemised is better than a higher level one with subpar optimisation.
    - Raid gear can be better if it has more gem slots since this gives you a bigger stat budget to play with.
    - Raid gear can also be better if it has hit on it since hit does not get scaled down. This gives you a little leeway to cheese an extra few stat points out of a set of gear.
    - Set bonuses as well as the 500gems on sha touched weapons are disabled.
    - True.
    - True.
    - False.
    - True.

    In Challenge Mode, your gear provides you the same amount of stats that it would provide you if each item was 463. It doesn't remove hit/expertise points but it removes other stats instead.
    It's easy to see, equip an item without hit/exp on it, then remove other items you are wearing and which have hit/expertise on them. Your item will get more and more stats on it.

    So, what's the conclusion?
    First, it's an advantage to have access to more gear, since you have more choices and may have bonus sockets.
    Second, you want to equip items that provides your best stat and are imbalanced. That is to say, as a fury warrior I only equip items with Crit and no Haste and I'd rather equip 1000Crit/500Mastery than 750Crit/750Mastery.
    Third, don't forget awesome racials like Human/Dwarve/Orc's Expertise bonus!

    Oh, and as far as I know, prismatic sockets on Sha-touched weapons work. But I haven't finish the Black Prince quest yet, so I couldn't test this.

  11. #31
    If you really want to min max, you want high ilvl raid items with hit/expertise and as many sockets as possible. All the sockets in your gear give you advantage over most 463 heroic gear. The reason hit/expertise is valuable as a secondary stat on your items is because hit and expertise are not scaled down, so basically the higher ilvl items you have, the more hit and expertise you're able to grab from those items. That means you can gain more secondary stats with higher ilvl gear than the standard 463 heroic gear.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by NotPrepared View Post
    If you really want to min max, you want high ilvl raid items with hit/expertise and as many sockets as possible. All the sockets in your gear give you advantage over most 463 heroic gear. The reason hit/expertise is valuable as a secondary stat on your items is because hit and expertise are not scaled down, so basically the higher ilvl items you have, the more hit and expertise you're able to grab from those items. That means you can gain more secondary stats with higher ilvl gear than the standard 463 heroic gear.
    WRONG.
    The more hit/exp you have, the more other stats are scaled down. You have exactly the same budget for secondary stats (except for sockets) whatever your stats have. You can have 0 Hit/0 Exp or 7.5% Hit/15% Exp, you'll still have exactly the same budget.
    Please, check your facts before you answer a question.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 03:53 AM ----------

    It's really easy to see.
    I mentioned above a way to verify this. There's an even more simple way.
    Just equip some 463 items and higher ilvl items with hit/exp on them. Your 463 items will be scaled down. Why? Because all your gear is scaled down to compensate the extra hit/exp stats.
    Last edited by Senen; 2013-01-20 at 03:53 AM.

  13. #33
    If there was nothing to compensate for having higher hit rating then you would have classes like rogues that have a white hit cap of around 9k hit just stack hit rating like crazy for challenge modes since it would effectively be one dps stat you could 'cheat' the ilvl adjustment on
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    ...Oh, and as far as I know, prismatic sockets on Sha-touched weapons work...
    I tested this before I put a 160 int gem in my staff and it worked in the challenge mode. I even put the gem in the challenge mode, ran out, ran back in, and it still worked.

    Similar to what a lot of people have said is you want to focus on extra sockets (however sometimes you pay a stat penalty on the secondary stats on that piece), itemization of the secondary stats, and trinkets. These will give you some extra bang for your buck in CModes.

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    The Raider would have the same TOTAL stats as the 463 dude. He would, however, have access to a much larger plethora of gear, and thus being capable of building the PERFECT challenge mode set, complete with the perfect gemming and stat distribution.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  16. #36
    As someone with realm first golds, as long as all your gear is 463 or better, ghost iron is good too, you will be more than ok. Hell I had windsong as my tank enchant for the entirety of it. I ended up playing prot for most of it and holy/ret for the fights where a heals needed to swap to dps (lillian and yan zhu). Composition and player skill matter so much more than gear.

  17. #37
    The Patient
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    I use quite a bit of blue gear on my warrior, i like to have a special set for challenge modes that gives me the highest itemization of crit possible. I also try to swap out two 2-handers and 2 1-handers during the run (TG better for trash, SMF better for boss).
    I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

  18. #38
    If you have access to heroic raid gear and engineering you should follow these gearing rules:

    1- More gem slots on an item - use it regardless of secondaries (gems do not scale down)
    2- Best stat optimization for the slot if number of gem sockets are the same
    3- Use the engineering head if your normal head has no sockets other than meta (engineering sockets do not scale down)
    4- Use the Darkmoon faire trinket, better comparable stats for the Ilvl
    5- Ignore tier set bonuses, they do not work in CM
    6- Sha touched gem does not work in CM, however the socket from the 5.1 stage of the legendary questline does work- tested this just now.

    Some of this will depend on your class/spec, someone should develop an addon that will provide a challenge mode gear score after scaling!

    This is purely for min/maxing, challenge modes mainly come down to refined strategies and perfect execution...

  19. #39
    Higher itemlevel items are usually always better. Downscaling isn't perfect:

    Here's an actual example:



    Two similar robes, yet the higher ilvl one is just flat out superior when downscaled.

    +13 intellect
    +6 haste
    +5 crit

    For all of the items I have tested where I had multiple versions (LFR/Normal/heroic), the higher ilvl one always had higher stats

    So yes if you want to completely min/max for challenge modes you need heroic upgraded gear.

  20. #40
    raid gear has an advantage because you will get more gems and also the 500 stat gem in a sha touched weapon that can't get scaled down

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