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  1. #1

    Guild integrity in top end WoW guilds.

    Hello MMO-Champ community,

    As we wrapped up this tier with a fairly decent rank given being an Alliance guild on a Horde dominated server (0 Galleon kills until well after it was useless loot) our GM took the time to reflect back on this tier as a whole - reflecting on integrity of top tier WoW guilds and his overall thoughts on the tier. We play on a server that as a whole has had some pretty decent competition and this tier was no exception. We embraced the challenge of overcoming the gear deficit early on during progression and pulled together to come out ahead of the competition for 2/3 realm firsts (WotE and Sha).

    During the progression push in ToES we positioned ourselves in such a way that we would be ahead of the curve, UT had not killed anything while we had a couple Lei Shi kills and a couple of Protector kills in favour of them taking realm first Empress before the holidays hit. When raiding resumed in a more regular fashion after the holidays the race was back on to us to kill Empress in a timely manner then push through Tsulong and get a jumpstart on Sha.
    What ended up happening in the few weeks following was not expected and is explained in the post linked prior (WoL screenshots+audio).

    Other guilds have done similar things in the past (TM/Gamble come to mind this tier) and there were repercussions for what happened. When we learned of what had POTENTIALLY happened at first I was sceptical but was soon being shown more and more things that would ultimately change my mind on the matter.

    What does guild integrity mean to you (be you a raider yourself, a casual, anything)? What does this say on Blizzard’s behalf regarding exploiting (something that they have cracked down on before)?

    I’m interested to hear what you think.
    Warlock: Knot ~ Rogue: Likely ~ Warrior: Notqt ~ Druid: Honestly

  2. #2
    Cheaters shouldn't go unpunished.

  3. #3
    Extending a lockout gives them the chance to do the same boss again at the same gear levels. If you guys were competing as hard as you say you are, this is a meaningful gamble versus clearing the first few bosses again and getting more gear that enables you to progress on future encounters better. I don't consider it cheating in any form. That you think Blizzard implemented it to allow casual guilds to progress faster and not for heroic progression guilds to use does not automatically make it so.

    The Tsulong thing looks like a fairly large exploit at first glance, so I'm not going to comment on that. It sucks that they managed to get ahead with something like that, they should have had the kill, loot and achieves stripped from them.

  4. #4
    I think you're naive to think that top guild competition is some honor sport. It's nice that you place such value in your raiding integrity, but I believe you are crossing the line into self righteousness with this post. I don't approve of using exploits to kill a boss, but the satisfaction of knowing I beat another guild in the progress race without stooping to such levels would be sufficient reward. I think the choice to drag another guild's name through the mud cheapens your victory.

    As far as extending raid lockouts goes, the choice has always been up to the guild in my opinion. If a guild wants to save an extra hour or two a week by extending a lockout instead of re-clearing, then they are passing up on all the upgrades given by clearing the instance again. The benefits and disadvantages of the system balance each other out as far as I'm concerned. Exploiting to kill a boss then extending the lockout to avoid the encounter again is a sketchy tactic, but if this guild is capable of killing both Empress and Sha then I'm sure they are capable of killing Tsulong. Their strategies may not be your own, but they are not the first guild to abuse mechanics to exploit Tsulong (or any other boss) nor are they the highest ranked guild to have done such. If I was the person making the decision I would have reverted any exploited Tsulong or Amber Shaper kills, but I don't have that power and whoever holds that power refrained from exercising it on the numerous top ranked guilds who did such. Sorry to come across as so contrary, but I just don't think guilds using strategies of dubious legitimacy is anything new nor do I think a guild in your position should stoop to their level by passing judgement even after you finish ahead of them. Your rank above them was well-earned, and I'm sure your rivals are well aware that your guild beat them fair and square.

    Edit: Also, this guild could have killed Sha up to two weeks behind your guild and still have earned more progress points on wowprogress due to the large discrepancy between your Empress kills. I still don't condone their exploiting, but it's kind of silly to think that their Tsulong antics would have delayed their Sha kill long enough to fall behind on wowprogress. Sha's the only boss that really mattered this tier; considering you beat them on the final leg of the race it might be better to just gracefully accept the events of the tier and prepare for the next rather than take this issue to a public forum.
    Last edited by Hesp; 2013-01-18 at 07:53 AM.

  5. #5
    Extending an instance because you are close to a kill or finish up a tier?
    Sure why not, more power to you.

    Extending an instance twice because you exploited a boss encounter and refuse to kill it the legit way?
    That's where they went wrong.

    The one Tsulong kill they did prior to their Sha kill was exploited. And we're not talking the druid t13 gear exploit here, we're talking about one that completely eliminates Unstable Shas from the fight, saving a ton of damage and a ton of healing. If they had gone back in and killed it legit the next week we wouldn't even care. But rather than worry about actually learning a fight, they purposely extend to make sure that actually progressing on it wouldn't get in the way of their Sha kill. If I were in that guild, I would have quit to save myself from being compared to the rest of the group. I would be absolutely embarrassed and insulted that my leaders didn't think enough of me/us as a guild to actually kill a boss the right way.

    At the end of the day, they effectively skipped a boss by doing this, and are undeserving of their rank. It wasn't fair to us, it isn't fair to other top guilds, and it isn't fair to the community.
    Last edited by Vishiz; 2013-01-18 at 07:53 AM.

  6. #6
    Why do you care about what other people are doing? That is their business and they have to deal with the ramifications.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

  7. #7
    Mechagnome Sarthan's Avatar
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    Using certain abilities on tsulong is not exploiting seems like your GM is kinda mad bro.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarthan View Post
    Using certain abilities on tsulong is not exploiting seems like your GM is kinda mad bro.
    Exactly, sooner or later people will realise the diffrence between "clever use of game mechanics" and "exploits. Weather you believe it, like it or not, there is a clear diffrence between them. If you cant figure that out as a "top end progression guild" then thats your problem.

    Read "Unintended Tactics" paragraph of: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8445111

    Point & Case.

    Exploits vs. “Creative Use of Game Mechanics” – A Brief Aside

    I’d like to take a moment to note that what this guild did was not an “exploit” in the sense of being cheating, bad, wrong, or against the rules of the game. Players used Spellsteal to steal a beneficial effect from a mob, which is what the spell is supposed to do, and the beneficial effect increased the power of the mage, which is what it was supposed to do. This was the essence of “creative use of game mechanics.” (Note that this is not to say that it isn’t possible to violate the Code of Conduct by using Spellsteal in general – if you find a spell that you can steal that causes you to damage nearby allies, and you take it back to town to grief newbies, that’s a little different. . . .)

    By contrast, a different group found a bug with Gara’jal where he could be dragged on top of the gate to his room such that players standing outside the gate could damage him without being susceptible to his attacks, and used this “unintended tactic” to defeat him. We fixed that bug, but also removed the loot and achievements earned from the players involved, and issued account suspensions. In general, it is never permissible to cause parts of a boss encounter to evade in order to gain an advantage, or to use line of sight or collision to get a boss stuck where you can attack it but its abilities no longer function.
    You also haven't done yourself any favours by publicly calling this guild out, they did nothing wrong.

  9. #9
    If you've actually read the post and examined the evidence, you will see they did something wrong. Due to the fact that no adds spawned during the first day phase and ended up saving them 100 million damage done and from actually having to deal with the unstable bolts that they chain cast which do about 250k damage each. A typical Tsulong kill has 150million damage done to adds, theirs has 50. If you watch the clip in the post, you will see that they know they bugged it as they called it out on vent and told their members not to fraps or record and hid all their logs. But according to your response I can see you didn't so we should just save ourselves the time.

  10. #10
    Sparkiee -

    You're whole basis on your statement in completely invalid. If you had spent the time to fully read and evaluate what was posted you would have heard this:

    Go listen to the Tsulong clip which you obviously ignored or haven't heard yet.

    The audio from this along with the World of Logs screenshots is proof. If you want to ignore proof and facts, by all means, that's your issue. To support a guild when they've obviously cheated is pure insanity.

    "Just bug it so we get no adds" That quote is pretty hard to miss in the audio. Also, later on you hear "We don't have adds I think it's bugged", among other incriminating statements. At least read the entirety of the post.

  11. #11
    I think you're naive to think that top guild competition is some honor sport. It's nice that you place such value in your raiding integrity, but I believe you are crossing the line into self righteousness with this post. I don't approve of using exploits to kill a boss, but the satisfaction of knowing I beat another guild in the progress race without stooping to such levels would be sufficient reward. I think the choice to drag another guild's name through the mud cheapens your victory.
    Those are exactly my sentiments.


    Grats on the RF heroic sha kill, but why post here for looking validation? Just report the them and move on, keep everything else to yourself.

  12. #12
    if living was some sort of honorable sport and the like.... i think that extending a lock out is cheating. The gear you get from the boss(es) you skipped vs the time it took to clear is not a fair trade in any way whatsoever. I don't know the specifics of how they got past tsulong so i can't pass judgment on that.

  13. #13
    Again, not looking for validation. We know what we accomplished. This is meant as insight/warning to players looking to raid at this level and the guilds that suffer because of it. Exploiting encounters is not cool and people who exploit should not benefit from their exploit. Nor should honest people unwillingly get tied up with the kind of guilds who resort to those methods.

    What does guild integrity mean to you (be you a raider yourself, a casual, anything)? What does this say on Blizzard’s behalf regarding exploiting (something that they have cracked down on before)?

    I’m interested to hear what you think.
    This is what is up for discussion. What does integrity mean to you?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Vishiz View Post
    If you've actually read the post and examined the evidence, you will see they did something wrong. Due to the fact that no adds spawned during the first day phase and ended up saving them 100 million damage done and from actually having to deal with the unstable bolts that they chain cast which do about 250k damage each. A typical Tsulong kill has 150million damage done to adds, theirs has 50. If you watch the clip in the post, you will see that they know they bugged it as they called it out on vent and told their members not to fraps or record and hid all their logs. But according to your response I can see you didn't so we should just save ourselves the time.
    Actually i did read the post, and i examined the "evidence". You seem to love jumping to conclusions.

    Fact is, what i linked shows that the makers of the game consider something like this issue on Tsulong to be a clever use of game mechanics, your right in stating it was probably not intented for the boss to be killed this quickly, but that does not make it an exploit and as i said above, you CLEARLY dont understand the diffrence between the two.

    If you find what they did immoral and want to hold the high ground, thats a fine route to take an i have no problems with it, but keep it to yourselves. You cant come and publicly call them out for doing something which you "think" is of a cheating nature, there has been zero indication from blizzard that this was an exploit (Indication involving bans and removal of loot etc).
    Last edited by Sparkiee; 2013-01-18 at 08:36 AM.

  15. #15
    I personally woulden't approve off it if I was inn such guilds, but exploiting has been going on for ages. The biggest ban-hammer wave I renember must have been (If any old school players renembers) guilds that exploited AQ40 1st boss platform to drop down to Cthun, skipping other bosses. And I belive it was only done cause they didn't bother with the other bosses to save time

    Most memorable exploit must have been yogg +0 evade bugging mobs inn phase3, with healing aggro for worlds first kill. Prolly many others to like saronite bombs or what it now was inn ICC. Point is, many does it and it sucks.
    One reason for WoW decline I often hear is that its an old game and naturally people get bored with it. But TV is much older and people still watch that. Surely if a thing you once enjoyed keept staying fun, you would still use it?

  16. #16
    Your GM reflected on the tier and over half of it was about a different guild. He sounds pretty butthurt and you guys sound a bit like whiners. It is clear the point of this post was not to discus integrity in top end guilds but to call out a guild with no proof of an exploit.

    Extending lockouts "has no place in the spirit of competition"...what? They took a different route than you to reach the final bosses. They skipped time re-clearing but missed out on gear that would make the fight easier. I think that would make it more competitive. Two guilds taking differing approaches to reach the same ultimate goal. I like how he references Yogg but your guild killed it over a month later. I'm sure that was because of raid lockout extensions.

    Grats on your RF Sha, sorry for your butthurt

    Interesting read though
    Last edited by Falkuron; 2013-01-18 at 08:47 AM.

  17. #17
    Fact is, what i linked shows that the makers of the game consider something like this issue on Tsulong to be a clever use of game mechanics, your right in stating it was probably not intented for the boss to be killed this quickly, but that does not make it an exploit and as i said above, you CLEARLY dont understand the diffrence between the two.
    You "CLEARLY" don't understand the difference between the two either. From the convo you and this guy are having, it seems like this "bug" or w.e it is, has something to do with adds. Exodus got banned for messing with the adds in their WF yogg-0 run. So yes, if it's something like this, then blizz obviously has a problem with it.

    I really don't care about this stuff, but i'd have to agree with others, why call them out? lol. What does this achieve?

    Also, I didn't read it.

  18. #18
    Raid extending should not be considered a form of cheating at all. There are disadvantages and advantages to raid extending. By raid extending you get a few more hours on whatever boss you're progressing on however you lose farm gear that could have made the boss easier. Many, if not most guilds have raid extended at some point this tier. If a certain guild did not raid extend I'm pretty sure it wasn't an "integrity" issue, mainly the members just wanting that farm gear to up their ilvl.

    I'm really tired right now so I don't feel like writing a huge paragraph on my thoughts on this issue but I'm with Hesp when she/he talks about the naivety of putting such value in integrity in top end raiding. Poaching players has always been part of top end raiding and it happens. It's not friendly or respectful but if you see an awesome player in another guild, why NOT approach them about joining your guild? Not actively recruiting and just waiting for potential raiders to app on their own accord will only get you so far. The higher ranked guilds attempt to poach players from lower ranked guilds and those lower ranked guilds try to get players from even lower ranked guilds. It's just a part of raiding guilds. In the guilds I've been throughout my hardcore raiding last expansion and MoP, we lost several players to Exodus/Midwinter/Supermassive. Yea, of course we were disappointed but we move on and actively recruit strong players from lower ranked guilds.

    As shitty as it is for UT to exploit Tsulong and such, I'd say it's pretty childish to defame them publicly and even make a MMO-Champion forum post to even get more exposure on their failure/shortcomings. Anyways, congratulations to you guys this tier on beating them to 2/3 end bosses and especially Sha without resorting to the methods UT had to.

  19. #19
    hmmmmmmmmmmmm

    Infracted. Please post constructively.
    Last edited by Rivelle; 2013-01-18 at 01:06 PM.

  20. #20
    Extending a lockout is so far from cheating I'm stunned that anyone would try and draw a parallel between the two. Gear is hugely important and extending a lockout is a massive disadvantage. It's a big risk you take to try and secure a kill, and the reason most top guilds don't do it is either because they clear the content in one lockout or because they know how much the gear helps.

    If anything it's pretty impressive they extended the lockout, what, five times during the tier and still managed to kill bosses in a timely manner.

    Won't comment on the Tsulong strat because I don't know the finer details.

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