What I think is dragging down WoW at the moment!

[darkpower]

This is not a "WoW is dying" thread. Far from it. But I have a feeling I know why some people are reluctant to say that it's the best MMO right now (it is, but yeah).

Last night, someone in my guild brought up that Blizz's obsession over dailies and how we're pigeon holed into them is bringing down people's interest in the game altogether. I did agree with him (but brought up that Blizz is trying to do something about that for 5.2...whatever that may be and whenever Blizz brings that up again), but also thought of what is exactly becoming a major issue anymore.

It's that whenever Blizz suggests changing anything to make things easier, more convenient, or harder, you get a sea of people complaining about it, no matter how big or small the change is, and no matter how beneficial the change could be. It's compounded more of people who will defend certain things to the death without realizing what it is they are defending, or have some ulterior motive they'll never admit to as to why they defend it.

With the dailies, everyone can possibly agree that we know what Blizz is trying to do here: to slow down the progress of rep grinds so it's not one shotted to exalted. Most of us are fine with doing the work. However, the problem has come from the fact that right now, dailies are the ONLY way to get any kind of rep. It's similar to how the endgame was pigeon holed in Cata: if you didn't like raiding, then what else was there to do in the endgame? Now if you don't like dailies, then there's no real viable way to get the rep for a faction, and you have to do these every single day or have that "falling behind" feeling (the fix to the shards for the Klaxxi helped). I think Blizz just gave the Golden Lotus more love than it deserved, but that's just me.

Anyway, what happens the second me or anyone else says this? "Oh, you want tabards back!" or "oh, you just want Blizz to hand things to you!" I'm sorry, but when did either tabards or handouts leave my lips or was ever typed on the screen? Even when we clearly say that we're fine doing the work, we get an endless line of people ready to say that we just want handouts. Why? It would be fine if it would be the odd troll out there, but this is a continuous stream of people saying that when all people have to do is listen or read what was written to realize that while we're fine not having tabards, that doesn't mean that Blizz should have such a hard on for dailies that that's the only feasible way we have to gain rep. What part of that means that we want the one shotting tabards back or that we want Blizz to give us hand outs? However, as you've probably seen some Blues answer to, there are just as many people wanting tabards back, and Blizz has to answer to that, as well.

Another issue is the flying mounts. 5.2 introduces the no fly zone island. That started the argument that flying mounts should be completely removed from the game...for the millionth time! How many times has this been suggested with the same answers given and the same people being closed minded to any other point of view? Regardless of what you think about it, thing is that the same thing happened to the thread that popped up on here.

That is this: the extreme fringes of the elitists and casuals take over every single debate about whatever change Blizz makes. It's either we have the most extreme of the elitists or the most casual of the casuals suddenly becoming so loud, obnoxious, and numerous, that the middle ground people (the people that understand that there might be an issue with the current obsession with dailies but see that the tabard system needed to go, or those that have no issue with how Blizz did the flying thing in MoP so far) get drowned out and never get heard.

I'll give you another example, this time more subtle but had yet ANOTHER battle ensue from it: The Quick and the Dead nerf. There was a good bit of posts trying to get simply a reason for the nerf (it was under "Bug fixes" after all...probably a mistake). What happened? "Quit whining about it". Really? All we want is a reason. This goes into the thought that Blizz has to answer those sorts of things a bit quicker than they seem to do (how many weeks was it between when it was nerfed and when GC said anything about it?).

But the thing is, the middle of the road get squished yet again. The argument in that sense was that while it was understood that Blizz wanted a better penalty for death and they are fine not having the 100% increase because it was too fast for its own good (they kept running past everything they needed to get to to recover their corpses), the nerf was way too severe, and negated the whole reason why it was called "The Quick and the Dead". The guild perk as it stands now might as well just suggest the other part of that buff (what happens if you get rezzed by another player), and leave out the Quick part. A smaller buff (50% speed increase) was considered.

Probably would've been if the take over of THAT debate didn't happen. But, yet again, elitists were quick to jump all over anyone daring to question anything about the nerf (even before there was any reason behind it), and casuals was wanting it completely back, and saying whatever they could to make Blizz listen to them and only them. Again, the most extreme of the two sides were the only ones that became represented because it was way too overwhelming for any compromise to even be considered. What happened to the middle of the road consideration? Haven't heard of it since.

This is the main issue. There no real room for a solution to any of these problems, or any other issue that gets brought up (good lord, how cynical some people were over something as simple as the Cinder Kitten fundraising thing), as long as a fight between the fringes breaks out every single time a change to the game is even considered. Both sides are responsible for this, and it's ruining the game because people just don't want to listen to constant bickering from people who have a motive of "get people we don't like playing OUR game to quit" every single damn time. If there wasn't this constant bickering of the extreme wings, then we might've gotten the issues with the dailies heard a long time ago, or had that compromise about the guild perk (that guilds worked a good while to get) happen.

The wars break out of every single little thing, on several kinds of forums, and it's a huge issue that needs to be addressed. As long as there continues to be this refusal to compromise on anything, and as long as fights break out over every little change that ever happens to the game, then Blizz might just see people get too frustrated about not just the game's mechanics, but also the wars that never end over what to do about things that leave no room for any middle ground to even be made. And people like the guildie that brought up his issues with the dailies might just quit the game because of a problem they can't control (us)!

[Pancaspe]

For God's Sake... I am sick of whiney lazy people who can't do a freaking easy grind.

[Canbie]

I'm so very curious about "Titan". How will they change the MMORPG?

[darkpower]

For God's Sake... I am sick of whiney lazy people who can't do a freaking easy grind.

So...you don't want the GC's in there?

Please elaborate on how people are whining about anything?

Never mind. You just did exactly the type of behavior I'm speaking of. Why is it that everything gets hijacked by posts like this? Can we have one debate about something in WoW that might or might not be changed without going down that route?

Unless, of course, you're either trolling or trying to make some joke...at least I hope it's one of those two.

[mvaliz]

I'm so very curious about "Titan". How will they change the MMORPG?

My money is on Player Generated DLC.

I don't think the "dailies" themselves are the problem... the problem I believe might simply be that almost all the activities you can do sound like they're accessed via dailies.

Like the farming stuff - majority of that content is via dalies. Perhaps you just go in and start swinging at rabbits instead of having to pick up and "do" a daily quest. Fish up an object that provides a quest instead of having to hit the NPC for the "daily quest". That sort of thing...

[McTurbo]

its simple.. the complaint comes not from having to do dailies.. but from having to do dailies to unlock your VALOR REWARDS for raiding. the two are completely diferent aspects of the game and have next to nothing to do with each other.

Reputation Rewards are fine.
Valor Rewards are fine
Combining the two together is where the problem starts.

Reputations should have its own set of gear outside of valor gear and shouldnt cost Valor to get. if they want it to costs something make it a collectible that comes from doing the dailies..

Valor Rewards are Rewards for doing hard things that require more than one person for doing them.. heroics, raiding ... if you wish to add some raid type dailies then go for it.. i miss the weekly raid daily.

[darkpower]

My money is on Player Generated DLC.

I don't think the "dailies" themselves are the problem... the problem I believe might simply be that almost all the activities you can do sound like they're accessed via dailies.

Like the farming stuff - majority of that content is via dalies. Perhaps you just go in and start swinging at rabbits instead of having to pick up and "do" a daily quest. Fish up an object that provides a quest instead of having to hit the NPC for the "daily quest". That sort of thing...

Personally, I would like to see some sort of thing where killing things (like bosses) in a certain dungeon (like what they did with Thrallmar and I think it was Hellfire Ramparts) would give you a bit of rep, or completing the dungeon would do the same thing. Something that would give you another option. Not necessarily tabards since that would be too quick, but another option if someone doesn't like dailies. People would still have to do the work, but wouldn't be pigeon holed into having to do something that they don't like.

Problem is that we get posts like what I mentioned about whenever we so much as suggest anything that would make it so we won't want to slit our wrists over it.

[Mawnix]

Playerbase drags WoW down.

Simple as that, will always be that.

As long as Blizzard cares about Player feedback/opinion, and implements such in game, it will either make WoW better or drag it into the dirt.

[Granyala]

Whats dragging WoW down?

A community that invests more time in whining about everything that requires effort than actually playing the game.

[Azrile]

The problem with dailies is that Golden Lotus was first and the devs made some mistakes. Even I can admit they were not very good, but I got passed them and enjoyed every other faction.

Problem with Golden Lotus
1. Mob-tagging was annoying when everyone was in the exact same place, and because of gating SP and AC, everyone was.
2. For some reasons the Mobs we had to kill the very first week had 500k hps, 200k more than most daily quest mobs.
3. Limited location- While the initial quests rotate among a few different objectives, the fact that you had to go to the exact same small area made them feel like the exact same quest
4. Dailies to unlock more dailies, but still having to do the original dailies each day.

The other issue is just stupid, math-impaired people. I can´t tell you how many times I heard people complaining about having to do 30 dailies a day the first few weeks. Anyone with a lick of sense should have realized that VP was the limiting reagent, and there was no sense doing that many dailies.

I still think if AC and GL had been switched ( ie, AC was the ones that was the gate), we would not be having all these pointless threads. There would have been less people at the GL quest area, we would have had better gear to deal with the 500k hps etc.

[Granyala]

2. For some reasons the Mobs we had to kill the very first week had 500k hps, 200k more than most daily quest mobs.

There are a few retarded things about Golden Lotus:

It's the first faction you encounter, thus your Gear is utter crap.
-Mobs have 600K HP
-Mobs give themselves shields that can absorb 70K
-Mobs constantly stun
-The amount of Dailies is too large

I would have put the "mean" mobs in factions like Celestials (THE joke faction anyway, because it has no lore and is just a lame grind) and Shado pan, when Players had a little more gear. The way they released it the very first faction was a nightmare, no wonder players got annoyed, burned out and didn't even want to do the other factions.

[Immitis]

another post by someone who doesnt keep up with the news...

in 5.2 your first dungeon or scenario of the day gives you a small boost of rep. there are also rep tokens that drop off rares and once you buy the farm reps will send you on missions that will give you rep for them.

the valor gear in 5.2 is once again tied behind a rep but instead of being tied behind a daily rep its being tied behind the shado pan offensive that you get rep for in the thunder king raid.

tokens will also be available from pet battles.

there now stop complaining sure it will be slow as hell compared to dailies but if you really dislike dailies you now have an option to do these reps without them

[darkpower]

its simple.. the complaint comes not from having to do dailies.. but from having to do dailies to unlock your VALOR REWARDS for raiding. the two are completely diferent aspects of the game and have next to nothing to do with each other.

Reputation Rewards are fine.
Valor Rewards are fine
Combining the two together is where the problem starts.

Reputations should have its own set of gear outside of valor gear and shouldnt cost Valor to get. if they want it to costs something make it a collectible that comes from doing the dailies..

Valor Rewards are Rewards for doing hard things that require more than one person for doing them.. heroics, raiding ... if you wish to add some raid type dailies then go for it.. i miss the weekly raid daily.

You're talking of the double dipping thing. Needing to do two things to get something when it always used to be one thing.

That's an issue, too. Thing is, though, Blizz was saying that people shouldn't need to do any of the rep grinds if they are raiders because better gear comes from them.

What they didn't think of is that:

1. The Golden Lotus dailies are just god awful, the quest chains never fucking END, two factions are gated by it, and Blizzard thinks it's the faction sent from GOD or whatever.
2. People will want the best enchants for their gear. Guess where they come from (read 1).

But most of all, we had to get faction rep for the shoulder enchants in Cata, and that came from the one rep grind that was the most tedious of all. People still think they have to grind out the rep to get the best gear, and they think back to Therazane and just want to throw up over having to do anything like that again (it wasn't that they didn't like doing dailies per se, but that faction just fucking SUCKED for all sorts of reasons). That's why they got that tabard for that faction. I didn't mind doing dailies for the other factions (Molten Front was fun to do, and they did August Celestials completely right), but Therazane was a faction that Blizzard didn't get anyone to care for.

I'm guessing that's why people feel as though they HAVE to do these grinds. We've trained ourselves to have to do them because we had to do them in the past, and because we just have so much thrown at us at once at level 90, and it's the "can't miss one day" feeling right now, it just seems to be way too overwhelming. The GC does help for the alts, though (you don't know how fast it was for my mage and warrior alts to get Exalted with the Tillers with it: fucking awesome, and the Tillers have good dailies with a good story line attached to it, and a great reward at the end of it).

[S Blieft]

Another issue is the flying mounts. 5.2 introduces the no fly zone island.

It's not the first time Blizz has brought in a daily quest hub with the inability to fly... Isle of Quel'Danas ring a bell?

That aside, Blizz is trying their best to accommodate a wide variety of players by providing something
all types can accomplish without much difficulty. As overwhelming as dailies can become, you can't fault
Blizz for trying. Every time they listen too much to the "general population" of the game they get shot in the foot.
Trial of the Crusader is a perfect example. Players were frustrated with the amount of trash mobs in Naxx and Ulduar
so Blizz introduced a raid without a single piece of trash, and now it's widely hailed as "The Worst Raid Ever".
You can't please everyone and you have to give Blizzard props for at least trying to change gameplay from where
it was in Cata. Be thankful I say, it could still be like it was... idling in your main city for hours!

[darkpower]

another post by someone who doesnt keep up with the news...

in 5.2 your first dungeon or scenario of the day gives you a small boost of rep. there are also rep tokens that drop off rares and once you buy the farm reps will send you on missions that will give you rep for them.

the valor gear in 5.2 is once again tied behind a rep but instead of being tied behind a daily rep its being tied behind the shado pan offensive that you get rep for in the thunder king raid.

tokens will also be available from pet battles.

there now stop complaining sure it will be slow as hell compared to dailies but if you really dislike dailies you now have an option to do these reps without them

I did bring up that they said something about giving us another option (in the first paragraph of my post, actually...that first line is something I don't count as a actual paragraph....so sue me), but I didn't hear about what it was.

Thing is, though, I think people are missing my point: it's not JUST about the dailies. It's about how the community seem willing to degrade every conversation about if something needs changed or not into this war about who wants handouts and who wants things cutting edge hard and how it's making everyone else seem like they're not being heard at all in any of these. Not my intention of dailies being the focus of THIS thread (even though it was the discussion of them in my guild that brought this thought upon me).

---------- Post added 2013-01-18 at 07:15 PM ----------

It's not the first time Blizz has brought in a daily quest hub with the inability to fly... Isle of Quel'Danas ring a bell?

Molten Front, too!

Thing is, I'm not complaining about that at all. They have done that in the past without anything from me. What annoyed me was that someone on THIS site posted something saying that them introducing the new zone in 5.2 was some sort of sign that they are removing flying altogether (using a one liner from GC and projecting it as the opinion of an entire company and spinning even that one liner to mean something different) and got that whole thing going once again, and how THAT also got as degraded as it did. The arguments about them never lead to any new points being made, people go in their with their minds made up and unwilling to listen to anyone, and refuse to refrain to name calling and questioning someone's skill over stupid shit.

[Deleted]

The most dangerous thing in WoW is having an opinion ;D

Also i agree completely with everything you wrote.. i've been thinking about this for a while now.

[S Blieft]

Blizzard understands that they made a mistake introducing flying mounts across the board,
they even admitted it which is a rare thing for any WoW dev but removing it entirely is
something that will 99% never happen. Can you imagine the backlash from the community?
It wouldn't be worth the trouble and certainly not worth the loss in subs.

As for the direction a thread ends up taking, be it positive or poop-flinging style all
I can really say is.... it's the internet. There's weirdos in real life but man do they
come out of the wood work on the net LOL. What you have to try and do is sift
through the crap to find the posts that actually matter, a large feat but doable xD.

Beyond all that, with 10million+ people playing this game there is always going to be
unhappy customers and there will always be that select group of players whom you
just cannot please. Seriously, you could send those folks a gold-plated, fire-breathing,
flying real life dragon in the mail and they'd still find something wrong with it....

For me, I just try to find things I enjoy in the game and I do those. I'm also the type
to find the positive side in any argument, it's just what I do =).

Best of luck to ya mate, I hope you find your luckydoo!

[darkpower]

Blizzard understands that they made a mistake introducing flying mounts across the board,
they even admitted it which is a rare thing for any WoW dev but removing it entirely is
something that will 99% never happen. Can you imagine the backlash from the community?
It wouldn't be worth the trouble and certainly not worth the loss in subs.

I think that quote was blown way out of proportion. A lot of games have a "fast travel" mechanic of some kind.

As for the direction a thread ends up taking, be it positive or poop-flinging style all
I can really say is.... it's the internet. There's weirdos in real life but man do they
come out of the wood work on the net LOL. What you have to try and do is sift
through the crap to find the posts that actually matter, a large feat but doable xD.

Happens way too much these days. It's just that so many seem to be willing to go down this route. Why is trolling and "the way of the internet" the in thing anymore?

Beyond all that, with 10million+ people playing this game there is always going to be
unhappy customers and there will always be that select group of players whom you
just cannot please. Seriously, you could send those folks a gold-plated, fire-breathing,
flying real life dragon in the mail and they'd still find something wrong with it...

.

Umm...can I have this dragon. I'll GLADLY take it.

Seriously, though, it just seems it's THOSE people that hijack things. I just fear that Blizz listens to those kinds of people. Hopefully, they don't, but as you said, the internet can be a cesspool and we sometimes have no choice but to swim in it.

For me, I just try to find things I enjoy in the game and I do those. I'm also the type
to find the positive side in any argument, it's just what I do =).

I've enjoyed a good bit of MoP, actually, despite the imperfections it has (which I hope get fixed).

[Granyala]

Seriously, you could send those folks a gold-plated, fire-breathing,
flying real life dragon in the mail and they'd still find something wrong with it...

I take the Dragon, but only w/o the gold plating (don't like Bling) and only if it can assume Alexstraszas elven form.
Seriously.. where would I put a dragon?! Elven form is much easier to.. uuh... handle ... :<

I've enjoyed a good bit of MoP, actually, despite the imperfections it has (which I hope get fixed).

I'm done enjoying when the next X-pac gets released.