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  1. #1
    Banned Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    I think people are underestimating how bad the Warrior nerfs actually are.

    Am I the only one who thinks Warriors are going to be bottom of the barrel in 5.2 out of all of the melee? I've been reading some other threads about the nerfs and most people keep claiming that Warriors are going to be "fine, just not OP." Here are some of my thoughts why I believe Warriors are going to be terrible if nothing changes. Its long.

    Second Wind Nerf/Defensive Stance nerf - This nerf is downright absurd and I'll explain why because I've seen so much ignorance floating around from people who've never played a Warrior. Warriors in Cataclysm originally had Second Wind and an ability named Blood Craze. Without going into details Blood Craze had a 10% chance of healing the Warrior when he received any damage source. Second Wind would only heal through a stun. Basically, these two talents healed for such a minimal amount, that it only made Warrior more resilient against bleeds and dots over DK's who have no passive healing. Old Battle Stance gave the Warrior 5% damage reduction and 5% damage bonus. The only heal that Warriors had that mattered was Enraged Regeneration, which at the time, healed for 30% of health over 10 seconds... 3 minute cool down. Then there was a talent called Field Dressing that buffed it to 36% I believe, but I forget the actual numbers.

    5.2 Warrior doesn't have any passive healing outside of Second Wind and only gets a 0% reduction from Battle Stance. Yeah I said "Battle Stance" because Defensive Stance isn't viable with 5.2 Arms thanks to Blizzards ingenious Taste for Blood change. Overpower costs 10 rage and Defensive Stance offers only 10 rage per mortal strike with a small 1 rage bonus per 3 seconds. Previously, 5.0 -5.1 Warriors would just sit in defensive stance and really only use Mortal Strike, Overpower and Colossus Smash while completely ignoring Slam with the occasional Heroic Strike when having excess extra rage. Slam is just painful to use considering Warriors in pvp have way too many globals to fill and to use one of those globals for Slam is just a waste when it could be used to either re apply mortal strike, hit hamstring, hit shockwave or use a sudden death proc. Slam is basically a terrible burden to Arms considering Arms historically never really used it until season 10. Anyway, Defensive Stance in 5.2 will only be used if the Warrior is going to die because of the rage cost from Overpower that didn't exist in 5.1.

    Back to healing, Rallying Cry is basically the only "heal" Warriors have but its mostly used as a utility ability to stack with shaman spirit link. Enraged Regeneration is now a talent that has to be chosen over Second Wind but its now a 10% heal on a 1 minute cool down. In other words, it sucks. 5.2 Second Wind is still affected by battle fatigue, and currently doesn't heal through stuns. That basically means once the Warrior is caught in a stun, he could go from 100-0 without a trinket. Before DK's and Ret Paladins go ape shit and explain to me "Well too bad, that's what we have to deal with" let me explain that Warriors have no jail cards out of stuns besides a trinket.

    Warriors are also the only melee in the game that moves at 100% movement speed against most classes who can run up to 115% or even up to 125%. Warriors are basically turtles and hamstring is joke considering its only a 50% movement debuff that requires melee range and 10 rage and is also easily dispelled. Compare that to Ret paladin Burden of Guilt which is basically a free ranged 50% movement slow that gives the Ret paladin one charge of holy power and if the ret is specced into long arm of the law can run up to 45% movement speed for 3 seconds. Judgement is only on a 6 second cool down and that cool down can be lowered through haste stacking.

    Basically what I'm trying to explain is that Warriors can't kite melee. They have no tools outside of safeguard to break snares and mainly rely on team mates to dispell for them. Warriors don't have stealth, nor do they any type of fade or absorb type abilities. They have fear immunity every 30 seconds, which is great but not useful if the Warrior is the target getting trained. All they have is damage reduction abilities such as Shield Wall and Demoralizing Banner which only delay the inevitable due to their long cool downs. Heroic Leap, safeguard is really the only "escape" a Warrior has, but a defensive Warrior is a dead Warrior. Warriors are only doing well when they are maintaining pressure. If they're constantly being trained into the ground, they're more of a burden to the team healer than an actual asset. This is why I believe 5.1 Second Wind with 25% Defensive stance was not only fine, but necessary if you have a 40 second Shockwave. Warriors are Warriors, they're meant to have high passive defense for their complete lack of being able to avoid damage and slow ass movement speed.

    Season 11 Warriors weren't bad because they did no damage. In fact, season 11 Arms did great sustained damage but lacked in the defense department. However, Rogue could basically sit on a Warrior all game and slowed/stunned to the point where the damage didn't matter. This is exactly what is going to happen in 5.2. Its almost as if Warriors are going to become Season 12 Frost DK's without the ridiculous sustained pressure that Frost can deal but every 5 minutes can trounce someone that is stupid enough to sit in Avatar/Reck which by the way thanks to 5.1 nerfs, can be kited.

    This thread is about my opinion on the future of 5.2 Warriors. I don't care if you play an Elemental Shaman, Enhancement Shaman, Ret Paladin, WW Monk, Rogue, DK, Balance Druid, and cry on the forums with the "Pity me" attitude by constantly attacking people who play classes such as Warriors and Mages that had a good season. If you're going to make stupid statements like "Well now you know how US RETS FEEL" or "After season 12, I don't have any sympathy for Warriors" just get out, I won't reply to such stupid nonsense. Some people seriously need to get their head of of their asses and stop having so much blind loyalty to a certain class like its some sort of sports team.

    I main DK by the way. I have no real sympathy towards Warriors but I want them to be actually viable and not dogshit for another 8 months until Blizzard decides to add a patch. No class deserves to be terrible for a season just because they had a good season. But this is the land of Blizzard and as much as they don't say it, they sure seem to balance this game for some classes around that philosophy.

  2. #2
    can i ask u something how is it fair to have 25% dmg reduction passive an not think is OP ? some of the nerfs are harsh idd but some of them are rly welcome

    On the other hand blizzard proves again that they cant balance the game every patch some classes will be OP some will go from top to bottom(unless u;re a mage always top) is just the way blizzard 'fix' the pvp

  3. #3
    Mechagnome Wootylicious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    No class deserves to be terrible for a season just because they had a good season.
    rogues coming from cata to mop rings a bell here. it kinda makes it hard not to say stuff like "warrior tears, i love em" when that shit was spammed at the rogues face for the last few months..

    on a more serious note, second wind shuld b reverted back and make battle stance reduce dmg taken by lets say 10-15%.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer
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    Ehhh. Warriors will have better mobility and better tools against melee than rets, DKs, rogues and enhancement shamans have. And even then, the bigger warrior nerfs = the less melee cleaves = less of a problem playing against melee cleaves.

    "...but a defensive Warrior is a dead Warrior. Warriors are only doing well when they are maintaining pressure. If they're constantly being trained into the ground, they're more of a burden to the team healer than an actual asset..."

    and this ^ sentence doesn't make any sense. Who doesn't feel like a burden being trained. Blood DKs?

  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral nerdjames's Avatar
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    I think you might be underestimating just how good warriors are on live. Are these big nerfs? Of course. Are they going to put warriors behind every other melee? No. With the buffs rogues and monks are slated to get, warriors could be second tier to them and possibly ferals, but they aren't going to be any worse than dks, enhance, or ret. There's still time for Blizzard to figure out just what should be changed and how, by the way. They've introduced a lot of stupid mechanics and abilities since Cataclysm, but it seems like they're doing a pretty decent job of consulting with experienced arena players now to clean their mistakes up. I doubt 5.2 will be exactly as the PTR is currently.

    Edit: Got some more free time and read through a little more thoroughly. I agree that the stun conditional on second wind is probably too much. The way that ability works is very touchy and the defensive stance nerf on its own is probably plenty of a survivability adjustment. I don't want to see another s11 where warriors just die in a smokebomb dance as soon as the gates open, but at the same time there should be some thought to their survivability. Just sitting in defensive stance all the time is too effective and thoughtless.
    Last edited by nerdjames; 2013-01-19 at 03:38 PM.

  6. #6
    Dreadlord Gouca's Avatar
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    A very good post, really liked the long explanation instead of a short summary. I do play Warrior and Mage, and the incoming nerfs feel a lot too much.
    guchi ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  7. #7
    Wall of text.

    And no Warriors will still be top tier melee in arena in 5.2.

  8. #8
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Do you have actual access to hard data? Bottom of the barrel. Wasn't that rogues complaining that they are stuck now? I think I have heard it from enhancement shammys, too. Certainly Unholy DKs complain. I mean..there is a thread on how "my" class is gonna suck and "your" class is gonna be OP every week. And it is for every class indeed....and for every specc of every class...

    But yeah, at the end of the day, out of ..let us say 20 dps speccs, one will come out on top and one on the bottom with 18 inbetween.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Emophia View Post
    Wall of text.
    TLDR would have been more appropriate, because it was not a wall of text, he did use paragraphs. A lot of them and they were pretty long, but he did use them.

    OP, you may be 100% correct, I don't know, I don't play mope. But you are not going to find a lot of sympathy from non-warriors anywhere. You say its not fair to have a bad season coming off a good one, well it hasn't been just one good season for warriors. I played the game from the last few months of Vanilla right up until Dragonsoul and warriors were the top or near the top for every single raid and every single season that I played.
    WoW having more subs than SWTOR is the same thing as Justin Bieber having more youtube plays than Tupac. Just because its more popular doesn't mean its good.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by asb View Post
    I think you might be underestimating just how good warriors are on live. Are these big nerfs? Of course. Are they going to put warriors behind every other melee? No. With the buffs rogues and monks are slated to get, warriors could be second tier to them and possibly ferals, but they aren't going to be any worse than dks, enhance, or ret. There's still time for Blizzard to figure out just what should be changed and how, by the way. They've introduced a lot of stupid mechanics and abilities since Cataclysm, but it seems like they're doing a pretty decent job of consulting with experienced arena players now to clean their mistakes up. I doubt 5.2 will be exactly as the PTR is currently.

    my thoughts exactly.

    warriors currently sit 25% dmg reduction with little penalty, they still produce awesome dmg without the need to switch stances this is WRONG and defensive stance is obviously too good.

    i however would of favoured keeping defensive stance as is but adding a -25% dmg done modifier. so it was a good defensive cd.

    second wind @ 3% allowed a warrior with a small hot from their healer hump a pillar for a few seconds to bring themselves above execute range/ allow themselves to be more easily topped. its meant to counter dots, not all healing! this example also applies to things like stuns. shockwave them and recieve ur heals with pressing a thing!

    I would of favourd second wind being a button, with some sort of dmg disadvantage/cost.

  11. #11
    You sir have no idea what you are talking about. Warrior nerfs are needed, quite a few in fact. As it currently stands warriors have the best mobility aside from Ferals, they have insane control over their enemies (2x kick, stun, AoE fear...), they have insane damage spikes when popping cool downs and way to much survivability compared to other DPS.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by iceberg265 View Post
    TLDR would have been more appropriate, because it was not a wall of text, he did use paragraphs. A lot of them and they were pretty long, but he did use them.

    OP, you may be 100% correct, I don't know, I don't play mope. But you are not going to find a lot of sympathy from non-warriors anywhere. You say its not fair to have a bad season coming off a good one, well it hasn't been just one good season for warriors. I played the game from the last few months of Vanilla right up until Dragonsoul and warriors were the top or near the top for every single raid and every single season that I played.
    Did you play at all in 4.1-4.3? Speaking PvP wise, as PvE doesn't matter in this thread.
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  13. #13
    Epic! Tucci's Avatar
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    Worst pvp class in the game for 3/4 of Cata because of overnerfs. Figured they'd make the same mistake again as did every warrior who's been playing for a long time. Thanks to the community they're getting there. I was happy with a lot of the changes/nerfs but they're starting to go a little overboard again and also once again starting to forget to actually compensate for a lot of the changes/nerfs. They start forgetting to balance by nerfing one aspect of the class and buffing another and just end up stacking nerfs and we just become a gigantic pile of dog shit by the time the patch rolls out.

    They're making so many good changes to pvp this xpac, I just hope they keep going with it and stop listening to horrible players crying their eyes out about stuff they really don't understand whatsoever. It's actually nauseating to watch people spam "NERF" on warrior streams any time they hit a 100k+ EXECUTE.
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  14. #14
    warriors are still so ridiculous on live it wont be a bad thing if the nerfs go slightly over the top.

    I was watching some of the yaspresents tournament games yesterday. It was just sad seeing the only lock participating get soloed by the warrior dropping health by 30% chunks, going 50-0 in 2 secs. Even the moderators couldnt help but break out in laughter about the reality of warlocks in arena right now.

    warriors are still better represented in all brackets than all rogue warlock and monk specs combined.


    What warriors really need are mechanical changes that make them more challenging to play and do well, though. Same goes for holy paladins and BM hunters. Nerfs will help for the immediate future though. And knowing Blizzard they will probably leave it at that.
    Last edited by Xolotl; 2013-01-19 at 04:28 PM.

  15. #15
    When it comes to nerfs/buffs Blizzard almost always overdoes it. Huge nerfs to warriors coupled with huge buffs to the other melee classes is going to result in a massive imbalance again. Warriors are probably going to nosedive to the bottom for the rest of MOP seasons.

  16. #16
    Only thing over the top is the no second wind while stunned everything else was warranted nerfs. You shouldn't be able to just have passive 25% dmg reduction that barely does anything to your dmg. On top the best passive healing and some of the best active cd's.

    So if I understanding you want to trade 12sec charge for 115% movement? Rogues get 115% but can only get 24sec gap closer. The only melee with a "spammable" snare over 50% is dk's and thats not very spammable.

    This is what happens when you have a class that was given the answer to everything in 5.0. They spread the nerfs over months but most of the things warriors have should have never made it out of beta.

    One of things I hear from warriors is "I just get trained to death without being able to sit in defensive stance and do dmg now". Welcome to what everyone else has had to deal with all mop. Once active cd's are down you are dead just like everyone else. Now that they've brought warrior defense inline hopefully we can get a buff to res going to lower everyone's dmg.
    Last edited by wow; 2013-01-19 at 04:37 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    When it comes to nerfs/buffs Blizzard almost always overdoes it. Huge nerfs to warriors coupled with huge buffs to the other melee classes is going to result in a massive imbalance again. Warriors are probably going to nosedive to the bottom for the rest of MOP seasons.
    warriors have always been the most dominant melee class, sometimes trading blows with rogues. Most of the time towering greatly above everyone else though. 2 seasons during cata in a game that has spawned 12(!) seasons are an irregularity, nothing else.
    Nothing more hilarious than warrior self-pity. Just like mages keep reminding everyone about being sunwelled while ripping the charts open tier after tier after tier, warriors will never let go the 2 seasons that were not coined by total warrior dominance.

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer Whitey's Avatar
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    You can't tell me with a straight face that these nerfs weren't needed. Granted, they might need to adjust the numbers, but that remains to seen after it goes live and we see the impact in everyday play.
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  19. #19
    warriors are going to be hurt more by rogue and monk over buffs then they are going to be hurt by any nerfs blizz hands out right now.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  20. #20
    I main DK by the way. I have no real sympathy towards Warriors but I want them to be actually viable and not dogshit for another 8 months until Blizzard decides to add a patch. No class deserves to be terrible for a season just because they had a good season.
    If you play DK, why bother writing all this stuff about another class? Have you made a thread about Warlocks, or Rogues, Monks or Disc Priest so far this expansion considering how dogshit these classes are? Don't think so...

    Warrior's are not having a "good season", warriors are broken as hell currently, mongoloid class, godmode, wtv you want to call it, even tho they've been nerfed in 5.1, everyone knows it, everyone admits it... except BIASED warrior players... Nice try tho...

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