I think people are underestimating how bad the Warrior nerfs actually are.

[meathead]

Damn, when u put it that way, it sounds really bad....oh wait, thats the same position ret is always in in rbg

This just in: warriors have been op for 9 seasons.

Breaking news: low enhancement shaman rep means warriors were fine last season.

We have clearly outline WHY these nerfs are over the top. You have provided absolutely nothing to counter our points except say "OMG WARRIORS ARE GOING TO BE SO OVERPOWERED" all while constantly slipping in "QQQQ WHY RET SO WEAK". We've also repeatedly given the reasons why ret is fine while your counterpoints have consisted entirely of "WTF DO YOU EVEN KNOW RET?!"

Dude, im not even trying to troll or be a dick, but honestly, dont u find something flawed in ur ret vs warrior arguement when its everyone but warriors who think theyre op, and practically everyone but the argueing warriors who think reta are underpowered?
And u say u weve provided nothing to counter ur arguements, but ive said multiple times that ret offhealing=nerfed defensive stance(without the old rage regen) in the fact that it drastically hinders ur damage(and its always been like that for ret), but no one has a counter to that arguement

lmfao!go back and read what we/i posted.never said anything about rets until people starting taling about how op'ed warriors where in wrath,like you are doing now.and that could not be farther from the truth.can you see where i said warriors needed nerfs?read and you find it.now can you see where i said warriors are getting over nerfed,and they are.some nerfs were needed other were not.


and it was not me that started the ret vs warrior thing,that was a butt hurt ret player.comparing the warriors CLASS last season to enhance shammys,really!just a side not,im willing to bet there were more restro shammys in high end arena last season then the entire warrior CLASS combined.

of couse rets are not goign to do a lot of damage when they have to stop and cast a 50k+ heal,hell do they even need to cast much any more?rets can heal on deamand and that being buffed.warriors cant and the nerf to 2nd wind will make it so warrior go from 100% to dead without a single heal.we both knwo that going to happen from time to time.but if that was your ret not getting 1 self heal you flip out right?

[Sluggo]

lmfao!go back and read what we/i posted.never said anything about rets until people starting taling about how op'ed warriors where in wrath,like you are doing now.and that could not be farther from the truth.can you see where i said warriors needed nerfs?read and you find it.now can you see where i said warriors are getting over nerfed,and they are.some nerfs were needed other were not.


and it was not me that started the ret vs warrior thing,that was a butt hurt ret player.comparing the warriors CLASS last season to enhance shammys,really!just a side not,im willing to bet there were more restro shammys in high end arena last season then the entire warrior CLASS combined.

of couse rets are not goign to do a lot of damage when they have to stop and cast a 50k+ heal,hell do they even need to cast much any more?rets can heal on deamand and that being buffed.warriors cant and the nerf to 2nd wind will make it so warrior go from 100% to dead without a single heal.we both knwo that going to happen from time to time.but if that was your ret not getting 1 self heal you flip out right?

I was actually referring to flaks, but none the less the defensive issues apply to all argueing, but anyway im tired of argueing with u warriors, its like argueing with a brick wall( haha get it? No, you probably dont)

[Flaks]

Damn, when u put it that way, it sounds really bad....oh wait, thats the same position ret is always in in rbg

This just in: warriors have been op for 9 seasons.

Breaking news: low enhancement shaman rep means warriors were fine last season.

We have clearly outline WHY these nerfs are over the top. You have provided absolutely nothing to counter our points except say "OMG WARRIORS ARE GOING TO BE SO OVERPOWERED" all while constantly slipping in "QQQQ WHY RET SO WEAK". We've also repeatedly given the reasons why ret is fine while your counterpoints have consisted entirely of "WTF DO YOU EVEN KNOW RET?!"

Dude, im not even trying to troll or be a dick, but honestly, dont u find something flawed in ur ret vs warrior arguement when its everyone but warriors who think theyre op, and practically everyone but the argueing warriors who think reta are underpowered?
And u say u weve provided nothing to counter ur arguements, but ive said multiple times that ret offhealing=nerfed defensive stance(without the old rage regen) in the fact that it drastically hinders ur damage(and its always been like that for ret), but no one has a counter to that arguement

I guess you missed all the hundreds of times I've said that warriors have been undeniably OP.

I guess you also missed the countless posts in MoP beta where I said that avatar and shockwave were blatantly broken and overpowered.

I made the exact same arguments I have here. Shockwave and avatar, defensive stance and second wind all attempted to address warrior's biggest weakness: CC. I've established that no other class is as reliant on a partner as a warrior (post avatar nerf). Avatar having a root/snare immunity was the biggest fuckup I could have imagined and the fact that it ever even went live should tell you how retarded Blizzard is. But the fact of the matter was that warriors DO need something to be able to stick to targets ON THEIR OWN. Every other class has multiple ways to do this not including pvp trinket. Warriors have an option for one of two: one which has an exceptionally long cd (bladestorm), the other which was I had called out as being op the moment I saw it in the alpha iteration of warrior talents (shockwave).

Yes, warriors have safeguard, but no other class is forced to rely on the proximity of other players just to attempt to get some uptime on the target. As it is, every class is able to peel a warrior off of them faster than the warrior can even get on them. Second and defensive stance came into play here. In a game where warriors are very easily kited they need major defensives, be they passive or active they need some MAJOR helpside.

Paladins, which you so vehementally defend as being weak, are actually leaps and bounds ahead of warriors in the grip department. There's no way I can deny that rets have a tough time getting to their target. But once they are on their targets, the options through which a ret can be shut down/peeled are limited to hard cc's or stuns which is also true for other classes such as ferals; in the case for rogues, enhancement shammies and dks, their ranged abilities allow them to make up for sitting in roots/snare and even then they have plenty of abilities to maintain grip on their targets be it through magical immunities or major movement speed increases that also happen to dispel/suppress slows.

I'm not saying warriors should be master of all trades. I'm saying that they should not be forced to be sitting ducks while every other class dances around them like they did in 4.3. And with the 5.2 changes, not only will classes be able to do this again, warrior pressure is going to suck because as long as they are trained, they will in fact be less effective than ever in defensive stance (and we've had some terrible seasons of trainage under out belt even when we were at the top).

P.S. I don't know why I keep arguing with you and Kosechi. I've been trying to stay logical and steer away from personal attacks but you guys are just sooo...ugggh.

[kosechi]

so im a dumb idiot you say?thats funny coming for a guy that has to call people names to try and win his argument.

"i know more warriors who got glad last season, then i know know enhance shamans who got anywhere close to glad"

all i got to say to that is LMFAO and you call me a dumb idiot!we guess what smart guy,shamans were the #1 pvp class in cata. restro shammys were in over 80% of the top 3 mans teams.thats why you did not see many enhance because they were all face rolling as restro. warriors on the other hand were the lowest represented class ever last season.your example is just bad and makes me lol @ you.

of course i remember season 5,that was another time arms was dead and the worse spec in pvp,and no warriors are not dk s5 stupid atm. your dumb asses statements make you look like you dont know wtf your talking about,lmfao. comparing enchance SHAMANS to warriors in cata when shamans were the #1 healers i threw out the x-pac.he guys look fury warriors have low rep,they have less rep then rets do atm.so that means fury need buffs-yeah!see how dumb you sound.[COLOR="red"]

i know i have an idiosyncratic writing style but come on, i'm fairly sure you ARE a dumb idiot from your writing alone, but i've mostly run out of synonyms for moron, so i don't know what to do at this point.

resto being good is irrelevant. enhance did badly. melee damage dealer vs melee damage dealer. enhance had huge issues in part due to its inability to make effective hard swaps.

warriors have had a grand total of 3 bad seasons. i'm not even sure i should count season 5 because everything that wasn't a dk or a holy paladin was bad. but then when we start discussing balance in season 17, i'm going to wonder "hey kos, should we even count S12 as a proper season because warriors and hunters were so completely broken? it was kinda like season 5 was for dks" you had 2 bad seasons. boo hoo. that doesn't entitle you to being idiotically op in this seasons.

warriors are going to be hurt more by rogue and monk overbuffs then they are by any nerfs that are being handed out. most people's damage need to be toned down across the board, a couple of people need major survivability nerfs. a lot of people need major survivability buffs. void shift and stampede need to be taken out of arena.

i think what they have changed is good, the shockwave change was elegant. it wasn't balanced for warriors to sit constantly in def stance, it should continue to be a strong defensive tool when the warrior is under pressure, but having what effectively amounted to a perma-barkskin with infinite rage was just not cool. arms has some of the best defensive cooldown available to non tanks, lets not get into escape mechanisms. none of those things are being nerfed. their survivability is going to be fine.

Paladins, which you so vehementally defend as being weak, are actually leaps and bounds ahead of warriors in the grip department. There's no way I can deny that rets have a tough time getting to their target. But once they are on their targets, the options through which a ret can be shut down/peeled are limited to hard cc's or stuns which is also true for other classes such as ferals; in the case for rogues, enhancement shammies and dks, their ranged abilities allow them to make up for sitting in roots/snare and even then they have plenty of abilities to maintain grip on their targets be it through magical immunities or major movement speed increases that also happen to dispel/suppress slows.

P.S. I don't know why I keep arguing with you and Kosechi. I've been trying to stay logical and steer away from personal attacks but you guys are just sooo...ugggh.

because you enjoy being corrected by some one who dosn't even main a warrior? i don't know.

rets don't have great grip, they can deal large amounts of damage at range which is probably what you are mistaking for grip, but they generally rely on other classes to stick to their targets.

magical immunities? you mean that 5 minute cooldown that opens them up for a hardswap the second it comes off? most paladins i know would trade bubble for defensive stance any day.

rets have no "major movement speed increases that also happen to dispel/suppress slows"

[Infracted]

[Flaks]

My god...

HoF isn't grip? Emancipate isn't grip? I mean...acting like you're the one correcting me when you're not even pointing out examples just.../facepalm.

If you could read, magical immunities was referring directly to dks and rogues. Ret wasn't mentioned in there anywhere.

I never said anything that would imply that rets have a movement speed increase that removes/dispel/suppresses slows/snares because, once again if you knew how to read, you'd know I was referring to dks, rogues and enh shammies.

Also, I'm getting sick of your personal attacks on folks with valid and logical arguments who, even when they DO have retarded arguments from time to time, refrain from insulting you. Oh and constantly derailing the thread.

[Miko]

My god...

HoF isn't grip? Emancipate isn't grip? I mean...acting like you're the one correcting me when you're not even pointing out examples just.../facepalm.

If you could read, magical immunities was referring directly to dks and rogues. Ret wasn't mentioned in there anywhere.

I never said anything that would imply that rets have a movement speed increase that removes/dispel/suppresses slows/snares because, once again if you knew how to read, you'd know I was referring to dks, rogues and enh shammies.

Also, I'm getting sick of your personal attacks on folks with valid and logical arguments who, even when they DO have retarded arguments from time to time, refrain from insulting you. Oh and constantly derailing the thread.

Rets can stay on their targets better then a warrior? Rofl, give me some of that weed you are smoking.

[Senathor]

@OP you should watch Cara play, it's becuase he played like a Ret that he won the tournament with Flubbah and Skoe unlike Veev...

[Kalium]

...Basically what I'm trying to explain is that Warriors can't kite melee...

I stopped reading right here... why would a melee need to kite a melee? You just went on a rant about how a Warrior is like a turtle... hard but slow... but if melee needs to be in melee range to hit then why would a melee kite another melee... I'm just at a loss.

Are you bitching that warrior are being kited by melee and the other melee can get away and heal before you catch up to them... in which case you don't pursue and take the time to bandage yourself as well... or are you bitching that you can't get away from melee if things go south? Both seem plausible if warriors are slow turtles... however, with fear, stun, heroic leap... I just don't see it being as big a problem as you are making it out to be.

[furaii]

I dont know the facts on skills etc but have done bg / open pvp since vanilla and I for one can say warriors atm are CLEARLY overpowered.

The nerfs they are getting may be harsh but may also be needed, blizz knows what they are doing, look at the monk, a brand new class and arguably the most balanced. In pvp I can have some very close fights with almost all classes until I see a warrior. stun from his charge and Im dead before the stun wears off, yep 3 seconds. No other class has burst like this and it needs nerfing.

[Ilnezhara]

You mean pretty much like shadow priests who were garbage in every season ever and could only be played at the absolute highest skill level? Okay, maybe that's a bit of an exageration but as someone who got his T2 on a warrior in the last season of Cata where they were absolutely the most awful thing ever I have to say: It'll be fine. It really will. I mean you can still randomly gib someone in a shockwave (because that's not a problem, right?)

The Warbringer nerf had to happen. It really didn, 7 seconds of unavoidable stun every 20 seconds was utterly absurd for a class with as much mobility and burst as a warrior.

Second Wind was FAR too good, again, give the present state of warrior's mobility. If you do not think it was then I have to assume you simply have no idea how to kite and use pillars to your advantage. Honestly I completely discount any PvP format except arenas, they're not hard enough to warrant balancing around.

If you think a passive 25% damage reduction with 100% uptime and absolutely no considerable downside was balanced, you need your head examined.

Here are my proposed changes:

- Remove rage cost on OP: It's dumb and needs to go, all it does is make arena boring again.

- 5% - 10% damage reduction in Battle Stance, cut the bonus rage gen in half.

- 15% damage redcution in def stance is fine.

- Tie Shield wall to def stance (and survival instincts to bear form, for that matter)

- Tie Die by the Sword to Battle Stance

- Tie MS to Battle Stance

Sounds about legit, I would like to see a lot of warrior's burst moved into their passive damage like Mortal Strike, no one likes getting one shot.

If you think your nerfs are bad, try being a shadow priest and having your only burst completely removed from the game and it's new incarnation being dispellable by 3/5 of the healing classes (4/5 with symbiosis). Having your healing destroyed and being OoM all the time if you want to fill a team support role on your team.

[Gatsu]

You mean pretty much like shadow priests who were garbage in every season ever and could only be played at the absolute highest skill level? Okay, maybe that's a bit of an exageration but as someone who got his T2 on a warrior in the last season of Cata where they were absolutely the most awful thing ever I have to say: It'll be fine. It really will. I mean you can still randomly gib someone in a shockwave (because that's not a problem, right?)

The Warbringer nerf had to happen. It really didn, 7 seconds of unavoidable stun every 20 seconds was utterly absurd for a class with as much mobility and burst as a warrior.

Second Wind was FAR too good, again, give the present state of warrior's mobility. If you do not think it was then I have to assume you simply have no idea how to kite and use pillars to your advantage. Honestly I completely discount any PvP format except arenas, they're not hard enough to warrant balancing around.

If you think a passive 25% damage reduction with 100% uptime and absolutely no considerable downside was balanced, you need your head examined.

Here are my proposed changes:

- Remove rage cost on OP: It's dumb and needs to go, all it does is make arena boring again.

- 5% - 10% damage reduction in Battle Stance, cut the bonus rage gen in half.

- 15% damage redcution in def stance is fine.

- Tie Shield wall to def stance (and survival instincts to bear form, for that matter)

- Tie Die by the Sword to Battle Stance

- Tie MS to Battle Stance

Sounds about legit, I would like to see a lot of warrior's burst moved into their passive damage like Mortal Strike, no one likes getting one shot.

If you think your nerfs are bad, try being a shadow priest and having your only burst completely removed from the game and it's new incarnation being dispellable by 3/5 of the healing classes (4/5 with symbiosis). Having your healing destroyed and being OoM all the time if you want to fill a team support role on your team.

You are forgetting the most important thing of this game (atleast for Blizzard): PvE.

[Zaxio]

Maybe you guys should try Fury next patch? Seems very skillful.


(On 7300 resil)

I playing Fury atm using TG well dint test it in arena but its funs spec for BGs making masscare jumping in group of bots and spam few WW+ ragging blow after

[Bryntrollian]

Wtb return of African Turtle Cleave

[Lulbalance]

I stopped reading right here... why would a melee need to kite a melee? You just went on a rant about how a Warrior is like a turtle... hard but slow... but if melee needs to be in melee range to hit then why would a melee kite another melee... I'm just at a loss.

/facepalm..

OT; this thread is hours of fun

[meathead]

i know i have an idiosyncratic writing style but come on, i'm fairly sure you ARE a dumb idiot from your writing alone, but i've mostly run out of synonyms for moron, so i don't know what to do at this point.

resto being good is irrelevant. enhance did badly. melee damage dealer vs melee damage dealer. enhance had huge issues in part due to its inability to make effective hard swaps.

warriors have had a grand total of 3 bad seasons. i'm not even sure i should count season 5 because everything that wasn't a dk or a holy paladin was bad. but then when we start discussing balance in season 17, i'm going to wonder "hey kos, should we even count S12 as a proper season because warriors and hunters were so completely broken? it was kinda like season 5 was for dks" you had 2 bad seasons. boo hoo. that doesn't entitle you to being idiotically op in this seasons.

warriors are going to be hurt more by rogue and monk overbuffs then they are by any nerfs that are being handed out. most people's damage need to be toned down across the board, a couple of people need major survivability nerfs. a lot of people need major survivability buffs. void shift and stampede need to be taken out of arena.

i think what they have changed is good, the shockwave change was elegant. it wasn't balanced for warriors to sit constantly in def stance, it should continue to be a strong defensive tool when the warrior is under pressure, but having what effectively amounted to a perma-barkskin with infinite rage was just not cool. arms has some of the best defensive cooldown available to non tanks, lets not get into escape mechanisms. none of those things are being nerfed. their survivability is going to be fine.



because you enjoy being corrected by some one who dosn't even main a warrior? i don't know.

rets don't have great grip, they can deal large amounts of damage at range which is probably what you are mistaking for grip, but they generally rely on other classes to stick to their targets.

magical immunities? you mean that 5 minute cooldown that opens them up for a hardswap the second it comes off? most paladins i know would trade bubble for defensive stance any day.

rets have no "major movement speed increases that also happen to dispel/suppress slows"

why dont you stfu and stop crying?your the one who compared enhance shammys to the warrior CLASS yeah that makes alot os since right?but some how your still here trying to argue that shammys were worse off the warriors in cata,lmfao @ you smart guy how could restro being the BEST healer in cata not count when talking about how good a class is in pvp?warriors had no spec we could pvp with,but shammys were in over 80% of the top 3 man teams.yet you still try and talk shit saying,o well that doe snot matter.o well rets healing was fine before the nerf,rets need help,warriors are op'ed.your doing nothing but trash talking and pulling shit out of your ass.

only tough guys talk shit and name call over the internet.go ahead can say what you want about my typing skills,i type these things up in like 2 mins and do not edit.taking personal shots at me just show everyone you have nothing really to say about the topic at hand.

fury warriors have less rep then ret do atm right?so i guess rets need to be nerfed and fury needs major buffs.just like enhance shammys in cata right?so you are for buffing fury now?

there were more restro shammys in high end arena the last few season of cata then the entire warrior class.care to comment on that?or are you going to talk more shit?

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 03:16 PM ----------

I was actually referring to flaks, but none the less the defensive issues apply to all argueing, but anyway im tired of argueing with u warriors, its like argueing with a brick wall( haha get it? No, you probably dont)

but you replied to me

[Gatsu]

After seeing them revert the nerf for mages and locks blanket silence, I was wondering if we could see a lesser OP version of Gag order make a comeback too...
Warriors control in 5.2 is at Cata levels.

[Reith]

no warriors in here are saying we did not need a few nerfs,but you fail to see that they are over nerfing us.warriors are ina good spot atm

You have got to be kidding me. So if Warriors are "ina good spot atm", your solution is buff all the other melee up to warriors' level? That's basically what you're implying, because the only other melee that comes close is Feral. Every other melee is significantly weaker.

[Khoranth]

Warriors could be balanced in PVP with 1 simple change, require a shield for Dstance.

[meathead]

You mean pretty much like shadow priests who were garbage in every season ever and could only be played at the absolute highest skill level? Okay, maybe that's a bit of an exageration but as someone who got his T2 on a warrior in the last season of Cata where they were absolutely the most awful thing ever I have to say: It'll be fine. It really will. I mean you can still randomly gib someone in a shockwave (because that's not a problem, right?)

The Warbringer nerf had to happen. It really didn, 7 seconds of unavoidable stun every 20 seconds was utterly absurd for a class with as much mobility and burst as a warrior.

Second Wind was FAR too good, again, give the present state of warrior's mobility. If you do not think it was then I have to assume you simply have no idea how to kite and use pillars to your advantage. Honestly I completely discount any PvP format except arenas, they're not hard enough to warrant balancing around.

If you think a passive 25% damage reduction with 100% uptime and absolutely no considerable downside was balanced, you need your head examined.

Here are my proposed changes:

- Remove rage cost on OP: It's dumb and needs to go, all it does is make arena boring again.

- 5% - 10% damage reduction in Battle Stance, cut the bonus rage gen in half.

- 15% damage redcution in def stance is fine.

- Tie Shield wall to def stance (and survival instincts to bear form, for that matter)

- Tie Die by the Sword to Battle Stance

- Tie MS to Battle Stance

Sounds about legit, I would like to see a lot of warrior's burst moved into their passive damage like Mortal Strike, no one likes getting one shot.

If you think your nerfs are bad, try being a shadow priest and having your only burst completely removed from the game and it's new incarnation being dispellable by 3/5 of the healing classes (4/5 with symbiosis). Having your healing destroyed and being OoM all the time if you want to fill a team support role on your team.

2nd wind is fine and did not need to be nerfed.also if MS was b-stance only how would warriors attack from d-stance?if we got train and went d-stance to pop sheild wall,what attack would we use?ms proc op-but if ms cant be used in d-stance there would only be slam and HS and no way to generate rage.thats not a good idea at all.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 06:17 PM ----------

You have got to be kidding me. So if Warriors are "ina good spot atm", your solution is buff all the other melee up to warriors' level? That's basically what you're implying, because the only other melee that comes close is Feral. Every other melee is significantly weaker.

again 2nd wind,op and fear did not neded to be nerfed, neither did MS.outside of that im fine with all the nerfs.so yes warrior are in a good spot atm.if every nerf goes live this patch than yes warriors will be over nerfed.d-stance nerf was needed,2nd wind should not have been touched.

[Flaks]

I'd rather have taken a second wind nerf than a dstance nerf personally if we had a choice.