Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
LastLast
  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Rectitude View Post
    This might be a worthwhile point except for the fact you can shield huddled targets to prevent a tick or two, and overall the healing requirements on the fight are a complete joke if properly executed.
    In 5.2 you wont be able to shield targets if they're afflicted with a debuff?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    In 5.2 you wont be able to shield targets if they're afflicted with a debuff?
    I don't recall saying anywhere that wasn't possible.

    The issue at hand that most people are discussing is that Disc will be dreadful when it comes to healing significant constant raid wide damage.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ss_Spring/hps/
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/..._Fear/10H/hps/

    Sha of Fear heroic is pretty unpredictable with damage considering you can't really blanket DA or pre-shield because the main damage is on people who a) are dumb and get hit by Waterspout or b) are targetted by the huddle. Yet all the top ranks are from Disc Priests. Also this fight is one of the few where it might be considered "hard" to hit all 5 targets with PoH.
    Youre not analyzing logs correctly. The top priest on 10man, for example, had 65 hits from PoH and 41 crits, but 248 DA hits. Methinks a lot of that DA came from Atonement came from Penance, Smite, and HF crits ( look at damage by spell) and other spells as well.


    50% DA was the problem, not DA on PoH.
    Last edited by Spazzeh; 2013-01-21 at 11:20 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Rectitude View Post
    I don't recall saying anywhere that wasn't possible.

    The issue at hand that most people are discussing is that Disc will be dreadful when it comes to healing significant constant raid wide damage.
    Why would it be dreadful? Math shows that PoH can achieve a 100k HPS throughput even without DA, and on fights with a Pheromone or Titan Gas gimmick surely the best spec to play should be Holy and not Disc? Look at how good Holy actually is. Even if Disc gets nerfed to the pits of Hell (as some of you are making out the nerfs to be) then just go Holy because Holy is a really competitive spec. It's easily within range of MW, Paladins and Shaman. Largely above Druids. It's just not at the same level as Disc (nor should it be).

  5. #25
    A few numbers regarding the Glyph of Binding Heal, based on 25000 Spell Power and less than 3% haste. These numbers are for Discipline since that is what the thread is about:

    Binding Heal glyphed will be 27% more mana efficient than Greater Heal, assuming no overhealing is done. Binding Heal's efficiency will be about equal if a combined overhealing amount of 60% of one of its heals is overhealing. This means that in cases where only 2 people need healing, Greater Heal will be a more efficient means of doing so provided it will not overheal by too much.

    Prayer of Healing will be 50-51% more mana efficient, again assuming no overhealing is done.

    Binding Heal will be 36% more HPS than Prayer of Healing, and 60% more HPS than Greater Heal.

    What this shows is that Binding Heal will become a powerful tool when glyphed, but only if it can be used in situations without too much overhealing. These numbers however do not account for Inner Focus at any point, so a PoH cast with Inner Focus will be substantially more efficient as well as jumping ahead in terms of HPS for a single cast. Greater Heal will jump to similar levels of efficiency and HPS as the glyphed Binding Heal, but focused on a single target (e.g. the tank).

    As for what the most efficient, in terms of both mana and throughput, will become, I am not sure. I expect something along the lines of throwing out a PW:S or two on those who will be taking the most damage (i.e. the current tank), Spirit Shell an IF PoH plus a couple more on the other group to get a reasonable health buffer, spam Binding Heals while you need the extra HPS and you are not on full health, else spam PoH if the raid is not in any particular danger of death.
    For the rest of the fight, it will be Atonement as normal. Atonement will be getting a moderate buff, since the 20% increase to Penance damage will add somewhere between 5-10% HPS during Atonement spam, as well as the increased Divine Aegis effect adding some more on top.

    Also, regarding a comment I saw further up, someone said something about people still capping Spirit Shell. Remember, the new Spirit Shell incorporates any Divine Aegis procs into its value. Therefore an Inner Focus PoH will provide a Spirit Shell equal to 175% of a crit PoH (at 50% mastery, and with the newly buffed 50% Divine Aegis).
    This means that Spirit Shell may still be easy enough to cap provided you are lucky enough to get some crits, however it also means that capping Spirit Shell on a group, particularly in 10 man, is not as powerful as it previously was since there will be no Divine Aegis on top of that.

    On another note, I am considering permanently switching to Power Word: Solace rather than Mindbender, which I have never specced out of except for PvP. Without PW:Solace, Holy Fire will again have its standard 2 second cast time, since the glyph is being changed to a range increase. I haven't bothered to look at any numbers, but am I right in thinking PW:S, if used on cd, should regenerate a similar amount of mana to Mindbender? If not there will never be any reason for a Holy Priest to take it as far as I can tell, and Disc Priests will only take it grudgingly for the quality of life improvement to Atonement healing.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ss_Spring/hps/
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/..._Fear/10H/hps/

    Sha of Fear heroic is pretty unpredictable with damage considering you can't really blanket DA or pre-shield because the main damage is on people who a) are dumb and get hit by Waterspout or b) are targetted by the huddle. Yet all the top ranks are from Disc Priests. Also this fight is one of the few where it might be considered "hard" to hit all 5 targets with PoH.
    Are you trying to use sha of fear to illustrate that discs throughput is above other healers? You're either dumb or joking. You can PW:S the huddle, and if you feel like it even pre-shield the entire raid before watersprouts (hardly effective though). Hell, during the majority of the encounter there's not a lot of healing required, obviously favoring disc on the meter since our absorbs (even just DA) and atonement (excellent spot healing) will take care of most of it before the other healers have a chance to.


    Why would it be dreadful? Math shows that PoH can achieve a 100k HPS throughput even without DA, and on fights with a Pheromone or Titan Gas gimmick surely the best spec to play should be Holy and not Disc? Look at how good Holy actually is. Even if Disc gets nerfed to the pits of Hell (as some of you are making out the nerfs to be) then just go Holy because Holy is a really competitive spec. It's easily within range of MW, Paladins and Shaman. Largely above Druids. It's just not at the same level as Disc (nor should it be).
    Do you live in the illusion that consistent 100k hps (assuming zero overhealing, which is retarded with a non-smart, group-bound, cast-time heal) is good? Every single healing spec is capable of doing way more than that right now. Holy is a competitive spec because you say so? Holy has mediocre output, artificial constraints (chakra) and basically no utility. Disc being dominant wouldn't stop guilds from using hpriests as well if the spec was good, it isn't.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-01-21 at 11:32 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Are you trying to use sha of fear to illustrate that discs throughput is above other healers? You're either dumb or joking. You can PW:S the huddle, and if you feel like it even pre-shield the entire raid before watersprouts (hardly effective though). Hell, during the majority of the encounter there's not a lot of healing required, obviously favoring disc on the meter since our absorbs (even just DA) and atonement (excellent spot healing) will take care of most of it before the other healers have a chance to.
    PW:S wont absorb all of Huddle's damage.

    Taking a random sample (ran PoH through log query) regarding PoH numbers on Sha of Fear HC (names edited to avoid drama):

    [20:54:47.256] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 41075)
    [20:54:47.256] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 40744)
    [20:54:49.270] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 42637)
    [20:54:51.698] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 42720)
    [20:54:54.130] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 42549)
    [20:54:56.280] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +*0* (O: 87713)
    [20:55:00.760] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +19003 (O: 22084)
    [20:55:00.760] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +31474 (O: 9301)
    [20:55:00.760] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +18986 (O: 22049)
    [20:55:02.732] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 40961)
    [20:55:02.732] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 41082)
    [20:55:02.732] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 40661)
    [20:55:05.606] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +*0* (O: 92476)
    [20:55:05.606] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +*0* (O: 92111)
    [20:55:05.606] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 44993)
    [20:55:05.606] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 45017)
    [20:55:05.606] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 44720)
    [20:55:05.606] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +*0* (O: 92084)
    [20:55:05.606] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 41097)
    [20:55:07.631] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +*74750*
    [20:55:07.984] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +*74903*
    [20:55:07.984] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +*0* (O: 75177)
    [20:55:07.984] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +*6772* (O: 68042)
    [20:55:07.984] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +*0* (O: 75226)
    [20:55:07.984] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +*75397*
    [20:55:07.984] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +*74935*
    [20:55:10.833] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36444)
    [20:55:10.833] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +*0* (O: 74552)
    [20:55:10.833] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36663)
    [20:55:10.833] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36601)
    [20:55:10.833] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36310)
    [20:55:12.903] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +36661
    [20:55:14.794] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36236)
    [20:55:14.794] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36283)
    [20:55:14.794] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +14875 (O: 21467)
    [20:55:14.794] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36370)
    [20:55:14.794] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36643)
    [20:55:16.491] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36430)
    [20:55:16.852] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36498)
    [20:55:16.852] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36586)
    [20:55:16.852] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36284)
    [20:55:16.852] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36407)
    [20:55:16.852] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36238)
    [20:55:16.852] ------ Prayer of Healing ------ +0 (O: 36530)

    As we can see, not only does PoH do a ton of healing but the Priest is quite evidently using PoH primarily to stack DA - this is what Blizzard wants to remove, and is doing so. PoH will be your AoE heal, and nothing more. It shouldn't be the go to heal for -all- situations.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie
    I hope you're aware that discs consistent throughput HPS isn't higher than most of the other healers currently, and that we'll be complete trash on any fight with unpredictable damage (since this makes absorbs worse than normal heals) and significantly worse than any other healer if the damage isn't burst based (e.g. titan gas, phermones) if they balance according to your wish. I'd argue that giving every class aproximately the same throughput but different advantages (absorbs, different kinds of utility, healing while moving, burst healing, etc) is a far better design
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana
    Sha of Fear heroic is pretty unpredictable with damage considering you can't really blanket DA or pre-shield because the main damage is on people who a) are dumb and get hit by Waterspout or b) are targetted by the huddle. Yet all the top ranks are from Disc Priests. Also this fight is one of the few where it might be considered "hard" to hit all 5 targets with PoH.
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontanta
    As we can see, not only does PoH do a ton of healing but the Priest is quite evidently using PoH primarily to stack DA - this is what Blizzard wants to remove, and is doing so. PoH will be your AoE heal, and nothing more. It shouldn't be the go to heal for -all- situations.

    Yes, that priests are using PoH to stack DA is something I'm aware of, you might want to keep track of why you are linking a fight/what you are trying to advocate. The problem is that discs aoe throughput will be atrocious compared to every other healer if DA is removed from PoH.

    Looking through your posting history I suppose this is HamSandwichFace, are you going to stop bypassing your ban soon?
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-01-21 at 11:47 AM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Yes, that priests are using PoH to stack DA is something I'm aware of, you might want to keep track of why you are linking a fight/what you are trying to advocate. The problem is that discs aoe throughput will be atrocious compared to every other healer if DA is removed from PoH.
    I doubt they'll be much worse off than druids are right now =3

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    Why would it be dreadful? Math shows that PoH can achieve a 100k HPS throughput even without DA, and on fights with a Pheromone or Titan Gas gimmick surely the best spec to play should be Holy and not Disc? Look at how good Holy actually is. Even if Disc gets nerfed to the pits of Hell (as some of you are making out the nerfs to be) then just go Holy because Holy is a really competitive spec. It's easily within range of MW, Paladins and Shaman. Largely above Druids. It's just not at the same level as Disc (nor should it be).
    Last I checked the thread title, this was a 10 man Disc discussion. Instead of arguing with you, I'll ask a question.

    Based on the proposed changes for 5.2, are you aware how the maximal HPS of all 5 other healing classes/specs compares to what Disc will be left with? I ask this as there are almost always several fights per tier where this is an important consideration during early progress.

  11. #31
    A lot of things are getting changed. I can speak only for the class I play (MW). I know we're going to be able to achieve 120-130k HPS pretty solidly (though very expensive mana wise). I have said though that I think MW/Resto Druids will have the highest HPS, followed by Holy Priests/Paladins and then Discs (I think Disc will do around 90-100k hps, Paladins/Holy Priests around 110-115k).

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer shise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Spaniard in Copenhagen
    Posts
    3,662
    The thing is.. if you want to aoe heal, you go holy.

    We can't pretend to do everyting as disc, a healing priest SHOULD be holy/disc and switch as needed. I'm happy if disc can't aoe heal tbh.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    A lot of things are getting changed. I can speak only for the class I play (MW). I know we're going to be able to achieve 120-130k HPS pretty solidly (though very expensive mana wise). I have said though that I think MW/Resto Druids will have the highest HPS, followed by Holy Priests/Paladins and then Discs (I think Disc will do around 90-100k hps, Paladins/Holy Priests around 110-115k).
    I'm not sure Resto Druids will jump quite that much, but then it all comes down to the numbers on the mushrooms since they've changed them a few times for better and worse. The 10% flat healing buff certainly won't be enough to push them up that high.

    Also, you forgot to mention Resto Shamans, trying to hint at something?

  14. #34
    Why do I keep reading people say because we're getting pushed a little more into using PW:S on an AoE scale that PoH becomes redundant? PW:S is an absorb and essentially a CD due to weakened soul. You might be able to shave off the initial damage of a hit across your 10m raid or certain groups with 25m but you still need an actual heal to recover that damage; ergo PoH.

    As a 10m Disc healer I feel too powerful on live right now and I'm actually looking forward to this new play-style going back to pre-preemptive damage mitigation instead of just healing with PoH and just getting a free Aegis as a bonus every time which was really unfair to other healers. Not to mention the free healing we put out with Atonement which decreases encounter times.

    5.2 is looking good.

    Edit: Also as much as a lot of people are complaining about it - changes are going to happen. You may as well just deal with it and prepare. Good Disc Priests won't be affected by this as they'll just adapt their play-style depending on encounters.
    Last edited by Daniie; 2013-01-21 at 12:30 PM.

  15. #35
    I agree, but Holy isn't quite as high as it needs to be to compete with other healers from what I've seen. I've had issues with mana as Holy which are non-existant as Disc when spam AoE healing on fights like Garalon.
    Also, Holy's PoH is currently weaker than it is for Disc, about 10-15% weaker, assuming that their respective masteries are fully utilized (and in fact Disc's mastery is far superior if there is consistent raid damage currently). And that's not including Spirit Shell. This is a large factor on why Holy is currently too weak in my opinion. The only saving grace it currently has in my opinion is the addition of CoH to its arsenal, as well as what I consider to be a better Divine Insight effect. But I've certainly still found overall that Holy is on a similar level to Resto Druids at the moment in the raids I've been doing. Of course, I could be doing it all wrong, but I don't really see how.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    Holy having more HPS than Disc (on both single target + AoE) should be the norm. All non-absorb throughput classes (MW, Resto Druids, Resto Shaman and Holy Priests) should have more throughput HPS than Discs. Why? Absorbs are better than raw throughput on a majority of encounters and cases, to have a class which is so far ahead of everyone else on throughput HPS as well as having absorbs is just flat out broken.

    Disc will still be strong after the patch; you just wont be able to do 50% more healing than every other healer with your eyes shut while swimming in a pool of mana that you can't deplete.
    Do you actually play a Disc Priest? The actual HPS of a Disc Priest without absorbs is nothing to write home about. Nerfing the absorbs to this degree leaves a gimmicky and severely limited healer. Disc will be in a worse place than at the start of MoP, where it was the worst healer.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Macanam View Post
    I'm not sure Resto Druids will jump quite that much, but then it all comes down to the numbers on the mushrooms since they've changed them a few times for better and worse. The 10% flat healing buff certainly won't be enough to push them up that high.

    Also, you forgot to mention Resto Shamans, trying to hint at something?
    Resto Shaman require very ... odd circumstances, naturally. I actually dislike playing my alt Resto Shaman, it's so unengaging. It's by far the worst throughput healer, but the healer with the best raid CDs. Divided on their use to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sevyvia View Post
    Do you actually play a Disc Priest? The actual HPS of a Disc Priest without absorbs is nothing to write home about. Nerfing the absorbs to this degree leaves a gimmicky and severely limited healer. Disc will be in a worse place than at the start of MoP, where it was the worst healer.
    Just something to note: Discs were weak at the start of the expansion because their awesome scaling had not kicked in yet. Playing Disc with 8k spirit and 30% mastery, with 20k spellpower does indeed suck. However in BiS gear, even with nothing changed, Discs would still be the best healer right now.

    I've done PTR tests of Horridon and Iron Qon (killed both, Iron Qon was buggy). Our Disc Priest was top, I was second. Marginal gap of 2-3%~.
    Last edited by Manamontana; 2013-01-21 at 12:40 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    The thing is.. if you want to aoe heal, you go holy.

    We can't pretend to do everyting as disc, a healing priest SHOULD be holy/disc and switch as needed. I'm happy if disc can't aoe heal tbh.
    Sometimes this isn't practical. Healers are often forced to dual spec as shadow for when they have to DPS (though admittedly Holy DPS isn't all that bad, but not as good single target as Shadow). A sad and unfortunate truth, all down to the way encounters are designed differently cause some of them to require less healers than others. Any one else remember the days when they said encounters within a raid wouldn't be balanced around having Dual Spec for people to switch roles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    Our Disc Priest was top, I was second. Marginal gap of 2-3%~.
    What were you playing, another Disc priest? Not entirely clear. If so where were the other healers coming in?

    I also dislike Resto Shamans, but then I've never liked them. Shamans in general just bore me so I never bothered to level it any more after Wrath.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Macanam View Post
    What were you playing, another Disc priest? Not entirely clear. If so where were the other healers coming in?

    I also dislike Resto Shamans, but then I've never liked them. Shamans in general just bore me so I never bothered to level it any more after Wrath.
    Ah yeah, I play MW. On Horridon we 2 healed and I was about 5-10% ahead of the Priest (I was allowed to melee all fight which increases the healing of a MW by 15-20%~) and on Iron Qon (a fight where I was unable to melee ...) I was 2-3% below. As I said though, I think MWs will be the strongest healer (with Resto Druids) for raw HPS throughput in 5.2. I think a good Disc will be able to top meters though. Spirit Shell really is so godly and provides so much HPS it's unreal. Every time you use SS your healing jumps by 2-4~ million. It's insane.

  20. #40
    Keyboard Turner
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Manamontana View Post
    Just something to note: Discs were weak at the start of the expansion because their awesome scaling had not kicked in yet. Playing Disc with 8k spirit and 30% mastery, with 20k spellpower does indeed suck.
    I see this posted a fair bit, so I have to ask... Have you tried it?

    I levelled my second priest some time ago, and cheated my way into LFR with higher ilvl gear in my bags... Had something like 458 ilvl equipped, and put out the most healing by a large (massive in most cases) margin on every single fight. Mana was a bit of a struggle, but manageable. Tried doing normals, and found pretty much the same thing. Other healers stand no chance in that content, because our substantial buffs made it so that we're strong regardless of gear.

    Of course I understand that this is LFR we're talking about, which means absolutely nothing in general, but I just felt that i had to comment on that point.

    The buffs we received before were overdone regardless of item level. Scaling quite possibly made the problem even worse, and might be enough to make sure we're not completely neutered after the nerfs, I'm not going to speculate about that... But personally I think it's a mistake to go back to a level where Disc can't function in bad gear, only to later be on par/good in good gear.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •