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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaljurei View Post
    The spec is not unplayable. My testing shows I'm pretty much doing the same amount of damage as before.

    Slam usage is the same as it is now, pretty damn low. Heroic Strike usage is there, just not as much before. Rage generation is fine, may need a tweak.

    I like the new Sudden Death mechanic, a lot more control over our CS usage, but it's focusing too much priority on Overpower usage which is bad, and is making Slam look bad.
    With all the 5.2 changes heroic strike is completely worthless for Arms, you should only be using slam it's cheaper and does more damage.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Courierrawr View Post
    With all the 5.2 changes heroic strike is completely worthless for Arms, you should only be using slam it's cheaper and does more damage.
    Ha, do some testing and show me your logs where you have high Slam usage. You simply don't press it at all because of Overpower's priority and SD procs and Storm Bolt. Maybe if you used Bloodbath, you would have a few more uses of Slam, but no more.

    I'll post my own logs tonight when I do some more testing.

  3. #83
    I'm concerned that from testing so far, reported here and elsewhere, it seems that we have a rotation that's 'unplayable' at low crit (15%) levels and fine at high crit (25%) levels. I wonder at what crit levels its a fun rotation, 25% crit will take some getting.

  4. #84
    Its PTR ladies, why are you arguing about them reverting changes back and forth?

    Public TEST realms...
    "There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" - Calvin and Hobbes

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Powell View Post
    Its PTR ladies, why are you arguing about them reverting changes back and forth?

    Public TEST realms...
    I guess we can stop arguing and discussing then. Lets see how a forum works out then.

  6. #86
    Any chance they'll revert overpower cost to 0? I don't like it.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by crazed View Post
    Any chance they'll revert overpower cost to 0? I don't like it.
    That's about as likely as mage nerfs going through.

    Not at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaljurei View Post
    Ha, do some testing and show me your logs where you have high Slam usage. You simply don't press it at all because of Overpower's priority and SD procs and Storm Bolt. Maybe if you used Bloodbath, you would have a few more uses of Slam, but no more.

    I'll post my own logs tonight when I do some more testing.
    After spending a lot of time in the blue PTR gear, and with my own char (not very well geared) on the dummy, I still really don't like this new Arms (playstyle - don't care about the numbers yet).

    On Live, Fury has this weird problem with Wild Strike, where under pretty much all circumstances, it's better to leave an empty GCD than use Wild Strike if it's not buffed by Bloodsurge. This isn't a huge problem, because Bloodsurge has a 20% proc chance, you've got decent crit chance on Bloodthirst, and you've got Berserker Rage to give a raging blow if really needed, not to mention other talents (impending victory, stormbolt, shockwave etc.) that can be used. So in reality that empty GCD arrives quite rarely, even in my modest gear.

    However, with Arms, due to MS having a longer cooldown than BT, I cannot help but feel like I should be leaving an empty GCD if I don't get a Sudden Death proc, until I have max rage and then dump it in a CS window. Every time I try and fill those empty GCDs, I am either running out of rage (using Slam too much, as you mention in your post, you rarely use it - how are you filling these empties, or are you not filling them?), or using stuff like Stormbolt or Dragon Roar at really sub-optimal times.

    I do still stand by the fact that I feel the spec is unplayable as it is on PTR, because I'm getting these issues on a target dummy, single target. If I try and do anything simple like keeping up hamstring/PH on a pvp target, I run out of rage really quickly. Even simple AoE is extremely costly. GC did mention reducing SS rage cost to 20 in line with Slam, but it's not enough.

    I'm confident that there will be some more changes to the spec before it goes live.

    The two issues are:
    Overpower's crazy high priority (also fishing for SD procs, bit weird on OP imo)
    Lack of incoming rage (MS gives too little, Overpower costs too much)

    Edit: Sorry forgot the more personal 3rd issue - it's really boring to play imo
    Last edited by Aerodyne; 2013-02-04 at 11:34 AM.

  9. #89
    Aerodyne I haven't played on the ptr so this is purely theoretical but simC gives me 6,8 rage/sec thats 40,2 rage every 6 seconds which would make MS>OP>OP>slam rage neutral and every time you would use dragonroar, CS, heroic throw or battleshout you would gain at least 20 rage. The normal rotation does seem to cost more rage then on live but I'm not sure it's a problem since we'll be using HS less without tfb effecting it, DPR of heroic strike is just terrible compared to slam. Don't think you have to save rage for CS like fury since slam>hs while hs>wildstrike as fury. Agree with you that it seems rather boring compared to live though :/
    Last edited by bigbad; 2013-02-04 at 12:20 PM.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Aerodyne View Post
    However, with Arms, due to MS having a longer cooldown than BT, I cannot help but feel like I should be leaving an empty GCD if I don't get a Sudden Death proc, until I have max rage and then dump it in a CS window. Every time I try and fill those empty GCDs, I am either running out of rage (using Slam too much, as you mention in your post, you rarely use it - how are you filling these empties, or are you not filling them?), or using stuff like Stormbolt or Dragon Roar at really sub-optimal times.
    Like I said on the EU thread :

    Storm Bolt is usable every 30s. CS is usable every 20s, 15s on an average with SD. That leaves 1-2 GCDs for Slam every 30s, which is exactly how it looked like in my logs.

    Use the priority system that you outlined yourself and you should be able to see the difference.

    Oh, I also never used Battle Shout or Heroic Throw. That's how self sustaining the rotation is. The only reason we use it on live is because of the unpredictability of TFB, which is gone in the PTR. I also never had empty GCDs. I also foregoed overpower stacks a few times which gave me more overpowers to use in the next MS cycles, because of SD procs.
    I have a feeling that I can't justify what I've said until I do more testing(I only did one 50m damage test), so let me do that and get back to you on the Slam usage.

    On that note, there's also a nice post from Zelix on the US PTR Forums regarding some issues which are a bit glaring as well.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5?page=94#1865

    Quote Originally Posted by Aerodyne View Post
    I do still stand by the fact that I feel the spec is unplayable as it is on PTR, because I'm getting these issues on a target dummy, single target. If I try and do anything simple like keeping up hamstring/PH on a pvp target, I run out of rage really quickly. Even simple AoE is extremely costly. GC did mention reducing SS rage cost to 20 in line with Slam, but it's not enough.

    I'm confident that there will be some more changes to the spec before it goes live.

    The two issues are:
    Overpower's crazy high priority (also fishing for SD procs, bit weird on OP imo)
    Lack of incoming rage (MS gives too little, Overpower costs too much)

    Edit: Sorry forgot the more personal 3rd issue - it's really boring to play imo
    I agree with these but I believe GC has already answered on the hamstring issue in twitter.

    As for AOE, I believe that he's proposing to reduce WW's rage cost to 20, which is a step in the right direction but there's going to be more changes needed to the spec if we want to do even comparable AOE. I am going to wait and see, or perhaps propose some mechanics(Which I already did for Cleave and B&T), which could improve our AOE.

    Regarding OP's priority, read this post : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5?page=92#1837. I've yet to try it but I believe it could definitely work. I'm not sure it's optimal but he did get similar damage numbers for both types of rotation priorities.

    Regarding Rage, I think we're just at a stalemate here because I think it's quite self sustaining and you don't so I don't know. I have seen posts from people where they say they aren't rage starved at all, and there are posts from people where they are rage starved. Maybe these people are not following an optimal priority which may lead to too many uses of Slam or Heroic Strike, which is causing the rage starvation. There are several reasons of course, but I don't wish to deride them by saying something like wrong Hit/Exp caps, hitting the dummy from the front, etc.

    I do agree that it's quite boring as well. The current TFB mechanic did introduce a bit of a fun element but it also had its disadvantages where if it didn't proc, we had to use terrible fillers(Heroic Throw/Battle Shout) or skip GCDs.
    Last edited by Kaljurei; 2013-02-04 at 01:46 PM.

  11. #91
    Edit: Had some post with some simcraft stuff, but after looking at it for longer it's DEFINITELY wrong, so I'm going to look into it more. Sorrry!
    Last edited by Aerodyne; 2013-02-05 at 10:47 AM.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Aerodyne View Post
    Edit: Had some post with some simcraft stuff, but after looking at it for longer it's DEFINITELY wrong, so I'm going to look into it more. Sorrry!
    Simcraft has been updated a couple of hours ago (without a binary to download yet), so it's quite unlikely that the version you are using is correct. I played around with priorities and it didn't change that much: Every MS you do 2 OP and X. X is either CS or Slam or Execute.. And thats it.. Quite boring tbh. Some ideas from the EJ thread [1]:




    1. reduce the OP GCD to 1 sec, this would give us ~120k dps, i.e., a solid spot in the middle and additionally make us use some more of our buttons.
    2. Another option would be the fury route: Let MS (aka BT) only proc 1 OP (aka RB) and make it hit double as hard.
    3. They could remove the boring mastery and change it to a slghtly less boring mastery that empowers the deep wounds dot which also (for ARMS only) scales double with haste and crit.
    4. SD procs could increase the duration of the next CS debuff instead of resetting it reducing the number of times we need to press CS.



    1: http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t126901-...7/#post2250913

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Berthold View Post
    Simcraft has been updated a couple of hours ago (without a binary to download yet), so it's quite unlikely that the version you are using is correct. I played around with priorities and it didn't change that much: Every MS you do 2 OP and X. X is either CS or Slam or Execute.. And thats it.. Quite boring tbh. Some ideas from the EJ thread [1]:




    1. reduce the OP GCD to 1 sec, this would give us ~120k dps, i.e., a solid spot in the middle and additionally make us use some more of our buttons.
    2. Another option would be the fury route: Let MS (aka BT) only proc 1 OP (aka RB) and make it hit double as hard.
    3. They could remove the boring mastery and change it to a slghtly less boring mastery that empowers the deep wounds dot which also (for ARMS only) scales double with haste and crit.
    4. SD procs could increase the duration of the next CS debuff instead of resetting it reducing the number of times we need to press CS.



    1: http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t126901-...7/#post2250913
    Thanks for this - yeah the version I had was hilariously wrong (Overpower wasn't being used lmao, had like 25% waiting time). Will hold fire for now

    Love the idea of Sudden Death buffing the duration of Colossus Smash, but at the moment, Sudden Death procs are the only thing stopping me from running completely dry on rage! If they absolutely must have something proccing from Overpower, I would prefer it to be a free, empowered Slam, which would help fill a GCD, and then SD can go back to proccing from auto attacks.

    The Raging Blow esque change could work, but they'd need to reduce the CD on Mortal Strike.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    That's about as likely as mage nerfs going through.

    Not at all.
    you my friend actually nailed that one.
    Mages are actually getting buffed to "compensate"

  15. #95
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Warrior
    We are currently trying Overpower on a 1 sec GCD (again). We like the way it feels and we like that it boosts Arms' damage without having to increase the damage of special attacks (which risks PvP burst), so we're going to let you guys try it next PTR build.
    More 1 sec GCD in this game please, let's modernize the gameplay and flow. That said i don't play arms, so i have no idea what this means from that perspective!

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Teks View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Warrior
    We are currently trying Overpower on a 1 sec GCD (again). We like the way it feels and we like that it boosts Arms' damage without having to increase the damage of special attacks (which risks PvP burst), so we're going to let you guys try it next PTR build.
    More 1 sec GCD in this game please, let's modernize the gameplay and flow. That said i don't play arms, so i have no idea what this means from that perspective!
    Pretty good change, but the rage cost has to go in order to be really awesome.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Teks View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Warrior
    We are currently trying Overpower on a 1 sec GCD (again). We like the way it feels and we like that it boosts Arms' damage without having to increase the damage of special attacks (which risks PvP burst), so we're going to let you guys try it next PTR build.
    More 1 sec GCD in this game please, let's modernize the gameplay and flow. That said i don't play arms, so i have no idea what this means from that perspective!
    They are going back to the old OP being a 1 second GCD (when did this change? I don't remember), which is awesome. I loved it when it was 1 second.

  18. #98
    thank god for for this change. finally they went back to 1 sec gcd OP again.
    arms had by far the best rotation in the first raiding cata tier with 1 sec gcd op.

    Now if only OP can be cheaper. lets say 5 rage.
    this definitely a move in the right direction.
    inb4 it gets reverted

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Berthold View Post
    reduce the OP GCD to 1 sec, this would give us ~120k dps, i.e., a solid spot in the middle and additionally make us use some more of our buttons.
    Your prayers have been answered it seems.

    I agree with the fact that we need to reduce OP's rage cost to 5 to make the 1s GCD completely viable and not have rage starvation.

    With this change we also have a Slam on every MS cycle if we choose to delay MS by 0.5s. Is this coming out as a DPS increase on SimC, Berthold?

    Frankly, I think MS's CD reduction to 5.5s would also be a nice step, slightly more rage generation and we don't have to either delay MS or waste 0.5s doing nothing waiting for the MS.

    Other steps to increase scaling :

    The suggestions I had proposed before could very well fix our scaling issues :

    ->Make Melee attacks and Strikes of Opportunity reduce CS's CD by 0.5/1 seconds - This effectively increases the value of Haste and Mastery, we also get roughly the same amount of CS usage, and it's a lot easier to predict.
    ->We can probably also increase the damage of Strikes of Opportunity to further increase it's scaling. Frankly, we don't need Haste to be better than Mastery, considering that all of the other plate DPS have Mastery as the second most valuable stat with only one spec(Unholy Death Knights) having it as its worst stat. I don't mind of course that Haste might be better for us than Mastery, as we may be the only class with Str>=Crit>Haste, but that's that.
    ->I think Arms should get the 30% Bleed damage increase again. It may increase AP scaling. We could also have another DoT, probably the old Deep Wounds again as that may increase Crit scaling and Str scaling(because we get another AP based DoT). This also leads to more sustained damage, which is what Arms is designed around unlike Fury which tends to be more bursty. Maybe Slam should apply that debuff, but the debuff only lasts like 10s? It will promote Slam usage as well.

    I can't wait to see what the number changes are going to be. I hope he would just hurry up already.

    I find GC's comments about differences in % increases due to scaling extremely offensive. He thinks we're stupid? We have seen that kind of theoretical scaling already. Anyone can look at a class's mechanics and decide how the scaling is going to be like and what the difference would be.

    EDIT : An interesting post by Necronom on the US Forums : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...46?page=25#494

    And this quote, I just found hilarious and interesting to read :

    I wish I understood what the developer love affair with overpower is, because clearly they want to cram as many mechanics in and around that singular abillity as possible. Deals damage, grossly inflated crit chance, unavoidable, unblockable, procs on having other attacks dodged, procs on MS use, procs sudden death in 5.2 (which is used for CS which can proc enrages), procs HS/cleave buff in 5.1, rage free for 10 seconds after execute, stacks to 5 charges, increases Die By the Sword duration (with glyph in 5.2), and now, a reduced global cooldown...I mean what the heck. How much mechanical crap do we need in this 5 pound bag, that wasn't even part of an arms rotation, despite its existance, until WotLK, while slam is sitting there with nothing but damage attached to it?
    Last edited by Kaljurei; 2013-02-07 at 08:58 AM.

  20. #100
    The Patient
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    Can anyone please change the name of the thread allready?! "Attempt" instead of "try". This accually makes have some sort of panic feeling every time i see it.

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