Thread: Sub rogue help

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  1. #1

    Sub rogue help

    *just got a log running*
    Hey fellow rogues,
    Recently I swap over to sub because combat/assassination just feels blend.

    I used shadowcraft for the most part and it has me listed at roughly 93k-94k dps for patchwork fights.
    So far I been getting close to it ~roughly 85k, I understand I don't have to hit the exact number because of a few small RNG but perhaps I feel I can do more.
    The rogue that I raid with in my guild hits the number and does even more than the estimated dps shadowcraft gives him as sub.

    Currently opener is stealth premed >ambush> SnD > Hemo > backstab > 5x rupture
    ShDance + Blades > ambush > 5x Evis(refresh rup/snd if needed)
    Vanish when weaken debuff falls + Prep shortly after
    ShDance off cd unless shadow blades is almost off cd <10seconds or time warp is about to be used
    Vanish off cd or after weaken debuff falls

    I make sure rupture/hemo is applied at all times and SnD doesn't fall off.

    LFR log missing stats/food burnt my prepot so I wasn't able to sync it with time warp
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1109&e=1358

    Thank you ahead of time.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...orius/advanced *currently don't have enough valor to upgrade my sha touch weapon :|*
    Last edited by Lolkrayd; 2013-01-20 at 08:41 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Insideme View Post
    Hey fellow rogues,
    Recently I swap over to sub because combat/assassination just feels blend.

    I used shadowcraft for the most part and it has me listed at roughly 93k-94k dps for patchwork fights.
    So far I been getting close to it ~roughly 85k, I understand I don't have to hit the exact number because of a few small RNG but perhaps I feel I can do more.
    The rogue that I raid with in my guild hits the number and does even more than the estimated dps shadowcraft gives him as sub.

    Currently opener is stealth premed >ambush> SnD > Hemo > backstab > 5x rupture
    ShDance + Blades > ambush > 5x Evis(refresh rup/snd if needed)
    Vanish when weaken debuff falls + Prep shortly after
    ShDance off cd unless shadow blades is almost off cd <10seconds or time warp is about to be used
    Vanish off cd or after weaken debuff falls

    I make sure rupture/hemo is applied at all times and SnD doesn't fall off.

    I sadly don't have any Sub logs as I just RECENTLY swapped over and my storage hdd died so I have about 20-30mb of data left on this ssd.
    But perhaps advice can be given to rotations/cds/openers/gemming/enchants for now?
    Thank you ahead of time.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...orius/advanced *currently don't have enough valor to upgrade my sha touch weapon :|*
    A few questions, surely assassination still pulls higher so is it really worth dropping the DPS for the enjoyability? I tend to find Sub pulls less and is harder to reach the maximum potential/less error tolerance.

    Secondly, if the other rogue can beat what is predicted is the maximum why are you asking us?!

    I can't tell you massive amounts about the opening ~1 min. But it's best to go check SIMC and see how it calculates your opening moves

  3. #3
    he isn't very talkative :| and my rogue got demoted to my alt now so I only raid in the server's pug run for enjoyment not to parse or anything but I still want to do my best on this spec.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Insideme View Post
    he isn't very talkative :| and my rogue got demoted to my alt now so I only raid in the server's pug run for enjoyment not to parse or anything but I still want to do my best on this spec.
    Then yer take my advice go through simulationcraft logs, it's all there in order of execution.

  5. #5
    Don't pair shdance with blades, u already generate plenty of CP during dance and the 100% armor pen granted by blades for autoattacks outshines find weakness...

  6. #6
    So far with the complete destruction, death, kill, nerf to the ground and almoust disgust that happend to the rogue class ... sub isent worth to play its to much hard head eacke required for the bk stab and the dps is a joke nothin special for all that running arround ... 0 special attack, 0 extra dps , 0 allllllll........ a pl said i want the 30% bk stab returned dont you? like that will ever happen looking at the curent progress the rogue class is doing, and where its going. Just play assassi its easy, simple and you do some dps

    Infracted: spam/derailing
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-01-20 at 04:07 PM.

  7. #7
    Was able to log a LFR to do a test dps. Tried what d3athstring said was a lot closer even with the mishap on potions thanks for the advice :3

  8. #8
    High Overlord
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    I like doing premed -> SnD -> garrote when capped again-> ambush x2 (you can usually get both off, tricky with lag sometimes) for openers. Subterfuge seems to go well with subt just for more FW uptime, and since the majority of the damage is from auto attacks now.
    Why is there no "Demonhunter" hero class yet? He was only the coolest hero in WC3. Get busy Blizzard.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Don't pair shdance with blades, u already generate plenty of CP during dance and the 100% armor pen granted by blades for autoattacks outshines find weakness...
    Not too sure about that, by using blades when you dance i was able to go into 5 point evis with only 1 ambush instead of 2, which allowed me to push in a lot more evis's during the -70% armor (which is a big deal for evis)

  10. #10
    I like to start with : premed -> garrote -> 5p SnD -> 5p Rupture. This way your first couple attacks already have the 16% soon 20% dmg bonus.

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire Zhira's Avatar
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    I havent got THAT much expereince with Sub, but my opener is usually

    Garrote > Premeditation > Slice and Dice > Ambush > Ambush > Rupture

    Z.
    LotRO - Zhira @ Snowbourn - L95 Man Burglar
    Rift - Zhira @ Zaviel - L60 Guardian Rogue
    WoW - Zhilas @ Draenor - L90 Goblin Rogue

    "...some cheese for your whine ?"

  12. #12
    i think the main thing to realise here is that your using shadow focus as your T1 talent but for sub you really need subterfuge the extra 3 seconds of FW per vanish becomes quite a lot now that vanish is back to a 2 minute cd ( before prep as well) as well as the ability to open with garotte instead of ambush ( for sang vein to buff the next things you do before you get that rupture up)

    switching targets trick -> 5 stack of anticipation -> target new mob -> cast crimson tempest hits old and new target grants sang vein for 12 secs ( plenty of time to get a rupture off) and transfers anticipation stacks to your New target so you can insta 5 point rupture or.... evis/snd as you have 12 seconds to get rupture up via new points as your only using rupture for the sang not for it's damg itself normally.
    i use Only crimson tempest on the dog boss in Vaults now as it's always hiting 2 targets and due to how much damg it does 1 crimson on 2 targets is more damg than a single evis will do to one target ( as long as you don't clip the dot to much), refreshing ct with 1 sec to spare so that it sang buffs the next ct that hits it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelodalix View Post
    What the fuck did you just say.

  13. #13
    premed snd garrote ambush ambush hemo evi bs bs evi shd

  14. #14
    I'll vouch for Subterfuge. It allows you to keep garrote on a lot, and thereby allows you to get SV active before you ambush during your opener every time.
    Premed>SnD>Gar>Amb(x2 if haste is timed right)>Hemo>Rup then maintain and use cooldowns intelligently. Don't bother with Rupture if Garrote will last until the mob dies, trade Eviscerates for Recuperates if you need more survival. A full duration Rupture is always preferred to an Eviscerate.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Viglante View Post
    i think the main thing to realise here is that your using shadow focus as your T1 talent but for sub you really need subterfuge the extra 3 seconds of FW per vanish becomes quite a lot now that vanish is back to a 2 minute cd
    You sure that works now? Vanish for the longest time was not triggering subterfuge unless you waited for the vanish effect to end where you actually enter "stealth." That was a massive loss to do. If anything the 2 min cd on vanish devalues subterfuge in comparison because you can only ever use it once versus you do get a free ambush on every vanish.

    Now I admit I haven't tried it recently, but unless they did in fact fix that issue, you sound like some one giving advice that has never even tried it (meaning it is essentially worthless)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Neversage View Post
    I'll vouch for Subterfuge. It allows you to keep garrote on a lot, and thereby allows you to get SV active before you ambush during your opener every time.
    What do you mean keep garrote on a lot? You put it up on your opener and thats it. When you vanish or dance you do not garrote over ambush. Also I am rather skeptical if garroting on a switch is optimal. You do it on your opener to get SV and SnD both going asap, however if you are switching, you should have SnD and have existing combo points with which you can apply a bleed for SV and then vanish for an ambush if you are intending on using your vanish cd to burst down the target you are swapping to.

    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Then yer take my advice go through simulationcraft logs, it's all there in order of execution.
    I wouldn't trust simc at all for sub. The values it was giving us at the start of MoP were not even in the ball park of what was actually possible. At higher gear levels, sub dps does seem to converge to what simc had, but that doesn't mean its actually right either... I mean its not like simc had a different model for t14 entry level and t14 bis.

    Now if some one has seen something from the person in charge of modeling sub with simc explain what his earlier mistakes were and say that it has been fixed, I'd retract that. I have not seen anything of the sort.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-01-24 at 11:21 PM.

  16. #16
    My sub opener is generally premed > SnD > ambush > hemo > BS > rup.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-24 at 06:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I wouldn't trust simc at all for sub. The values it was giving us at the start of MoP were not even in the ball park of what was actually possible. At higher gear levels, sub dps does seem to converge to what simc had, but that doesn't mean its actually right either... I mean its not like simc had a different model for t14 entry level and t14 bis.

    Now if some one has seen something from the person in charge of modeling sub with simc explain what his earlier mistakes were and say that it has been fixed, I'd retract that. I have not seen anything of the sort.
    Simc's modeling doesn't depend on gear. It works exactly like shadowcraft in that game mechanics are tested/reverse engineered and the data from that testing is used to model gameplay mechanics. Maybe the priority list can be tweaked, but the priority list shouldn't be different at any gear level (with few exceptions). The modeling is gear-agnostic.

    All this software is iterative. Software development is neverending--as is theorycrafting. As long as the game keeps changing/evolving, so do the theorycrafting tools.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-01-24 at 11:32 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Simc's modeling doesn't depend on gear. It works exactly like shadowcraft in that game mechanics are tested/reverse engineered and the data from that testing is used to model gameplay mechanics. Maybe the priority list can be tweaked, but the priority list shouldn't be different at any gear level (with few exceptions). The modeling is gear-agnostic.

    All this software is iterative. Software development is neverending--as is theorycrafting. As long as the game keeps changing/evolving, so do the theorycrafting tools.
    What you said was my entire point. If simc was working properly, your gear level shouldn't matter. It was clearly off with the low level gear results, so just because the high level gear results do seem to be reasonable, does not mean it is accurately representing everything. If it were, the low level gear results would also have been accurate. So unless the underlying stuff was actually tweaked from mop launch, I don't think its a good idea to go by it for this.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    What you said was my entire point. If simc was working properly, your gear level shouldn't matter. It was clearly off with the low level gear results, so just because the high level gear results do seem to be reasonable, does not mean it is accurately representing everything. If it were, the low level gear results would also have been accurate. So unless the underlying stuff was actually tweaked from mop launch, I don't think its a good idea to go by it for this.
    My point (or at least the important part you may have missed) was that's the very nature of software development. During subsequent versions, the model was improved. There is no theorycrafting software that models things perfectly except whatever the blizz devs use, since only they know the EXACT mechanics and the exact intended rotation. The very fact that simc's modeling has improved over time demonstrates that they are constantly improving it. It's not dead in the water. It's not buried and forgotten.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    My point (or at least the important part you may have missed) was that's the very nature of software development. During subsequent versions, the model was improved. There is no theorycrafting software that models things perfectly except whatever the blizz devs use, since only they know the EXACT mechanics and the exact intended rotation. The very fact that simc's modeling has improved over time demonstrates that they are constantly improving it. It's not dead in the water. It's not buried and forgotten.
    Hmm, I did indeed miss that being your main point. But I did ask if anyone knew whether or not those earlier problems were fixed and if they were that I would retract my recommendation against using it for this.

    I mean I get how modeling works, and spending time with it to improve it and verify that the model does accurately reflect real world data is important. That said, relying on a model you believe to not be working properly isn't wise. So if some one is recommending to another person the use of a model that I have reason to believe is still not an accurate representation, I will definitely recommend they do not use that model.

  20. #20
    There should be no "I have reason to believe" about it. There is no believing. There is "I know it's not right because I downloaded it and read the source code." And in that eventuality, you can create an ticket so they know it's not right. Steering people away from the tool instead of taking steps to correct the tool is not doing ANYONE any favors. Good players use multiple optimization tools--not just one. I use shadowcraft, simcraft, wowreforge, amr--all of them.

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