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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    Haste is one of the worst stat for mitigation for Paladin tanks.
    you are so absolutely wrong. I hope more people realize that you are just flat out wrong and giving bad advice.

    as to why haste is bad for dks, you need immense amounts of haste to add to survivability that it is worse than what you can get in dodge/parry (we have no lowering of gcds/cds that pallies have)

  2. #22
    Assuming you've reduced you rune cd by 0.69sec to 9.31 and ignoring the lv75 talent as its value is reduced to keep the talents overall value static, regardless of haste %.

    Over a 6min fight your getting a total of (360/(9.31*2))=19.33 DS with haste and without (360/(10*2))=18 DS, which is at most an extra 2DS over that fight. Given that scent of Blood can only proc off auto attacks and using the previous values your getting an extra 7SoB.

    Correct me if my maths is wrong, but how is that better than an extra 40% sheild.

  3. #23
    Bloodsail Admiral xtramuscle's Avatar
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    I'm not upto date with DK tanks this tier (rerolled boomkin!)

    But if I had to guess, I'd say with stacking pretty much all out mastery (past a hit/exp amount you feel suits you best) i'd say there isn't enough free secondary stats left to stack haste to the point where it outweighs avoidance. If you were to stack haste to the levels of say a monk it would indeed result in more moves/avoidance, but with so little available 1% haste won't make much difference where as an extra dodge in theory could save you from dying. (But in most cases if it gets to a point that close something has gone wrong already) im talking in raids here.

    In challenge modes I'd take the extra haste, most pulls should be chain stunned or CC, in many cases if 3 or 4 mobs hit you at once youre dead regardless, its not really about tanking in challenge modes, more working as a team with the DPS, and kiting like a MF. Here i would value haste higher just because DPS is more important, and you do less actual tanking.

    Vexxe of Old School.



    Streaming MOP raids live: (14/14HC 25Man SoO) and WOD Beta (Leveling and raid testing Heoric/Mythic) @ http://www.twitch.tv/vexxee

  4. #24
    The basic premise for why avoidance is better than haste from a damage mitigation standpoint for Blood DKs is simply because haste doesn't scale nearly as well for Blood DKs as it does for the other tank specs. That's pretty well all there is to this subject.
    Vereesa of Paragon, formerly of Depraved
    WCL

  5. #25
    All three lvl 75 talents DO scale with haste. More haste equals more runes, which means more RP, which means more procs from the lvl 75 talents. RC will have a shorter "uptime" as haste increases to ensure it doesn't double dip from haste.

    Haste isn't bad, but as Vereesa said (and a few more), Blood DK's scale badly from haste, which makes other stats better. This is partly because of the 1 sec gcd we already have and partly because more ds/min isn't nescessarily more survivability.
    Last edited by szandos; 2013-01-20 at 12:22 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    Not saying it isn't true, but the idea is that haste would otherwise scale OUTSIDE of the relative increase of the linear increase of overall resource generation. That's what i was trying to say with frost's KM mechanic. That's something outside of the linear resource model that is directly benefited by haste.
    Sorry but that's bull.
    The amount of KM procs increases in the same manners as the amount of extra attacks you can use with haste => it's a linear increase (because with more attacks you also need more KM procs ....)

    The same can be said for blood: The increased amount of SoB stacks you can get corresponds with the increased amount of DS you can use => the average amount of SoB/DS is about the same.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  7. #27
    I remember asking Euliat to add some results in his sim, which I would have personally found extremely pertinent. This stat was "damage taken between two deathstrikes".
    I still think it'd be an extremely extremely relevant value, far more than overall damage taken. You could make a graph out of all these values (and probably end up with a normal distribution, with mastery and hit/exp being the closest stats to a curvy bell)
    Last edited by Mionelol; 2013-01-20 at 03:38 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Hey all. As a tank from other classes, I was taking a look at stat wieghts, and I see that Haste is below dodge/parry for DKs. This made me ponder why- for most of the other tanking classes, Druid, Paladin, and Monks, haste is one of the best stats for mitigation, simply because more haste = more resource (For druids, Crit>Haste, but haste is still pretty decent).

    Thus, this makes me wonder- for Blood DKs, where haste increases the number of Death Strikes over a fight, why is Haste valued lower then Dodge/Parry? (It especially confuses me since, from my understandings, DKs in general scale VERY well with haste)

    EDIT- I noticed I put the wrong title, meant, why is Haste WORSE then Dodge/Parry.
    Just wanted to point something out for the OP that I didn't notice anyone mentioning.

    Crit and Haste are valued highly as a Guardian because Bear form gets a 50% buff to their Crit and Haste ratings. In other words, 100 Crit/Haste rating while in any form but Bear = 150 Crit/Haste while in Bear form. More Crit = better RPS = better uptime on SD. Haste increases the pretty slow default auto-attack of Bears for additional RPS.

    -----------

    But to get back on topic: Before any talent or specialization, all Death Knights have a 10.0 second Rune recharge timer. Blood DKs as their specialization get 20% faster Rune regeneration, bringing that 10.0 second timer to 8.0 seconds. Add in the level 75 talent and you'd probably shave off 1.0-1.5 seconds from your average rune regeneration timer, making it effectively 6.5 seconds - 7.0 seconds (forgive me if these numbers aren't entirely accurate but I believe they are close enough to the actual values as to make my point).

    Since your effective Rune recharge timer is so low before any Haste is considered, any Haste added has less of an impact in reducing the Rune recharge timer than for Frost or Unholy (dunno how much haste is needed for a 10% reduction in the timer but 10% of 6.0 seconds < 10% of 8.0 seconds). That is not to say Haste is worthless for Blood DKs but, considering the loss of survivability provided from Parry and Mastery, it is not the stat to prioritize over all else for current content raiding. I did not mention Dodge as given Dodge's extremely large DR, I wouldn't be surprised if with 5.2 that Haste sims higher than Dodge for survivability.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    Blood DKs as their specialization get 20% faster Rune regeneration, bringing that 10.0 second timer to 8.0 seconds.
    10 / 1.2 = 8.33
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    10 / 1.2 = 8.33
    Didn't know that's how Blizzard calculated the recharge timer. I was thinking something like 10.0*(1.0-0.2) = 8.0 where 1.0 would represent the default state and the -0.2 would represent the Blood specialization for Blood Presence.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Trubo View Post
    Didn't know that's how Blizzard calculated the recharge timer. I was thinking something like 10.0*(1.0-0.2) = 8.0 where 1.0 would represent the default state and the -0.2 would represent the Blood specialization for Blood Presence.
    20% faster recharge != 20% less time to recharge
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  12. #32
    DK gcd 1 sec. basline. Hmmm why is haste less benefit for us than other classes..... :P fixt.

  13. #33

  14. #34
    This thread is amusing.

  15. #35
    Its about reliability vs overall mitigation.

    Dodge/Parry is unreliable, but in the long run provides more damage mitigation then Haste.
    That doesn't make it better, Haste provides more control over your survivability and allows you to use it when needed.

    RNG is a bitch.
    You can get a few dodge/parry streaks in low damage situations and get none on moments where you need it.
    Haste is a more reliable form of resource management. And since active mitigation is so important for all classes now, so is your resource management.

    But for DKs i would still aim towards Dodge/Parry and use Blood Tap as your management tool.
    "There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" - Calvin and Hobbes

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    .69 seconds is a LOT more than you think it is. Do some math on how many more Death Strikes that is in a single 6 minute fight.
    I did the math. its 4 extra death strikes across the entire 6 min fight (not counting any extra sob procs so plus 2ish). Thats not very many especially when you consider how much damage a single avoid would do comparatively.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamiyomi View Post
    I did the math. its 4 extra death strikes across the entire 6 min fight (not counting any extra sob procs so plus 2ish). Thats not very many especially when you consider how much damage a single avoid would do comparatively.
    Sure .... now do the math on how many extra attacks you avoid if you go for dodge/parry and you'll probably find out that it's only a handful of attacks....
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    I remember asking Euliat to add some results in his sim, which I would have personally found extremely pertinent. This stat was "damage taken between two deathstrikes".
    Was pretty sure I did this already, but I guess not. I've certainly done something similar before, because I remember asking healers about it and not getting any useful input at all.

    The data is going to be ridiculously noisy, and BT isn't going to be realistic unless I start to have it use it intelligently (i.e. factoring damage taken, in which case I'd then need to redo RC and RE as well). Otherwise you'll notice the pattern of steady DS's with a rapid one thrown in every now and then.

    I'll look into it, but the noise generally makes conclusions difficult.
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

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