Is this not total bs?

[breadisfunny]

One other thing. If I order something here and it is below X amount then I must pay extra on top of the pizza (or whatever it is). But as soon as I go over that X amount, I don't have to pay extra anymore. For some business X is 20 EUR, for some it is 15 EUR, for some it is 50 EUR, for some there is no X. Almost nobody delivers for free here. Another trend, and personally this is my favorite, is to order online with IBAN, credit card, and so on. This way all I have to do is grab the pizza from the fellow and that's it. I won't have to grab my wallet, get my hands dirty from the coins, wait for change. Nothing like that. A quick transaction. And the delivery fellow can quickly continue without wasting any more time.

Now, if you don't have something like a delivery fee in your country, that's fine, but then don't complain if the delivery is suddenly too far away or too expensive. The customer doesn't care, they just want their food hot.

And you know what? The way I see it my tip is when I order again, and word of mouth about quality. That is where you self delusional drivers and servers will lose. Because if you treat the customer bad, there will be times in recession where you don't get to pick which customer to drive to first and then your boss will have to fire people.

You'll never hear the times the customer double tips (once from receipt, then tips on that because thinking price is w/o tip). The customer doesn't notice, the server/driver either doesn't notice know or care, and neither does the boss.

Thanks for your story. You received less than 10% of the tip you should've received.

Moreover if we assume a 10% tip is right in USA, then that'd be $17,50 a customer, which means $3500 divided by 7 would be $500 tip. So even in that regard it is unfair.

I would have immediately left that job. But without drama. Stay courteous. It'll always look better on your resume.

Yes, and this is something I find back in Japanese and Indian restaurants (and till large degree in Germany): courtesy. Whether you tip or not, no matter with how many people you come or what you order, you will be treated nice and fair. Service, dignity, courtesy are very important in Eastern culture in general, deeply ingrained in their culture for thousands of years. Now, I'm not very familiar with the original inhabitants of the USA, but I'm pretty damn sure their cultural values have been lost when the Brits, Dutch, Spanish and what have you set foot and took over.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 03:00 PM ----------

Seems to me like a broken system because it encourages the customer to pay a sum on top of the price which is expected by culture, and when they don't, then suddenly the driver kids get angry and will do things like spit on the food (read in thread several times), deliver them cold food (read in thread several times) or deliver them late (read in thread several times).

Either way, I wanted to call you on your usage of the loaded word freeloader. They paid the minimal amount they're legally required to (as advertised). That's not freeloading. You don't like it, that's fine, but it sure as hell isn't anything remotely near freeloading.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 03:07 PM ----------

Or maybe they figured that system is better because it is more accurate and more fair. Newsflash: not every system you're using is the best in the world. Hello? You're still using Fahrenheit?! Even the incredibly stubborn chauvinistic Brits stepped away from that.

Here's how you can improve your system:

* Include any service fee in bill, or make it part of the cost of the actual product (customer knows in advance what they pay).
* At least minimum wage from boss.
* Add the gas money to the bill (calculated with GPS) since it is part of the job. Or boss pays and its subtracted from profit.
* Suggest to pay in advance (quicker transaction).
* Let employee lease the car.
* Tip optional, but understand a returning customer is akin to a tip.

the farenheit system has nothing to do with this argument. not sure why your angry i just simply stated that our resteraunts add the cost of tipping to the bill and personally i approve of it.

[Kathandira]

This is just bullshit though. In a nice way...really not being rude. Customers are free to tip or not as they see fit. While tipping is counted on it is in no way, shape, or form obligatory. You are advocating a law to fix a problem that simply doesn't exist.

I just don't understand how it is B.S.

How is it fair that any other industry is forced to pay the minimum wage, but restaurants can get away with paying less all the while expecting the public to pay their employee's with gratuity (which is not mandatory)

[poser765]

A law to remove the stigma and but mostly for fair treatment towards employees.

Please do not over look the point that a waiter in New Jersey makes $2.14 per hour. At a 40 hour week that is roughly $86.00 a week before taxes, $61 that you bring home.

If no one tipped at all that week, (yes this is rare but i've had really low tip weeks in the past) you made $61 for 40 hours of being at work. If the whole month is like that, then you made $260.00 that month after working 160 hours. And finally, that is just under $2,000.00 for the entire year after taxes. A whopping $2,000.00 that's basically the gas money to get to work each day. So without tips, how do you expect a server to live?

Now if we forced restaurant employers to pay the minimum wage, this could be a more fair market for the employee's. And! Guests would no longer have to worry about tipping. They can out to eat and pay what the menu advertises and not that little extra for the guy who is doing his job as expected.

The situation you describe is so remotely implausible it can't really be taken seriously. If you are that shitty of a waiter that you are literally making NO TIPS week in and week out, it just aint for you.

Yeah man, I've had shitty nights. I burn my own gas, and I've had nights where I, quite literally, had to pay to work. Those nights are rare...prolonged runs of those nights are even more rare.

If everyone...and I mean EVERYONE stopped tipping then the system would need to change, but believe it or not for everyone who doesn't believe in tipping there is at least one, and maybe more, person who actually likes tipping their waiters/delivery driver. Broke system aint broke.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 03:18 PM ----------

the farenheit system has nothing to do with this argument. not sure why your angry i just simply stated that our resteraunts add the cost of tipping to the bill and personally i approve of it.

don't worry...this poster has made several rather blatent anti america statements in this thread.

[Kathandira]

our resteraunts add the cost of tipping to the bill and personally i approve of it.

This has always been what i felt is the best solution. No additional fees, let it be part of the meal price as posted in the menu.

[poser765]

I just don't understand how it is B.S.

How is it fair that any other industry is forced to pay the minimum wage, but restaurants can get away with paying less all the while expecting the public to pay their employee's with gratuity (which is not mandatory)

Because the public will pay? i don't know, man. That's a good point and really the only one I can see. The context of law change didn't really relate to other industries. it's people trying to be fair to the workers and the customers. That's the bullshit part. The system is already perfectly fair. If it wasn't not as many people would become waiters or drivers, and not as many people would eat out.

I strongly want to emphasize...the workers are happy, and the customers are happy. A desire for change is so small as to be non existent.

[Wildtree]

A high school

There's your problem..... It's a school.. Food's paid from a budget, and the tip isn't part of that.
They seem to have a deal negotiated with the restaurant, pizza place ( [Price Edited] indicates that), and that total amount was approved, not a dime more.

[Kathandira]

The situation you describe is so remotely implausible it can't really be taken seriously. If you are that shitty of a waiter that you are literally making NO TIPS week in and week out, it just aint for you.

LOL true indeed, but I feel you missed the point of that paragraph. I was really just pointing out what the employer actually pays his service staff. Reenforcing how important tips are to the server.

Yes, due to tips the servers can make wages they expect to make. But the uncertainty could be eliminated if they didn't work based on what the clientele decides to give you.

[Pisholina]

If the company says "free delivery", then they should have a system that covers the expenses for the delivery. That's like saying you can have free toppings, people shouldn't get offended if you choose more than 2 of them. Also, in here, you are supposed to drive the company's car/bike and the company should pay for the gas bill.

I worked for an electrical installation company and I've never gotten extra money when I would do my work because I get my money from my employer, and yes, I did work for minimum wage.

[poser765]

LOL true indeed, but I feel you missed the point of that paragraph. I was really just pointing out what the employer actually pays his service staff. Reenforcing how important tips are to the server.

Yes, due to tips the servers can make wages they expect to make. But the uncertainty could be eliminated if they didn't work based on what the clientele decides to give you.

No I THINK i got what you were tryign to say. lol maybe i didn't. yes the pay is shit. The actual TECHNICAL PAYCHECK is worth dick. hell I make minimum wage delivery and my paycheck is an after thought. My counter point is that there is no uncertainty. Maybe there is no certainty on a nightly basis, but plotting over a considerable time waiters and delivery drivers, for the most, part make good money.

I could realistically expect to interview someone for a driver position and tell him to expect ON AVERAGE $14 an hour. That is a certainty.

[Kathandira]

No I THINK i got what you were tryign to say. lol maybe i didn't. yes the pay is shit. The actual TECHNICAL PAYCHECK is worth dick. hell I make minimum wage delivery and my paycheck is an after thought. My counter point is that there is no uncertainty. Maybe there is no certainty on a nightly basis, but plotting over a considerable time waiters and delivery drivers, for the most, part make good money.

I could realistically expect to interview someone for a driver position and tell him to expect ON AVERAGE $14 an hour. That is a certainty.

True, When I worked for Cheese Cake Factory, I was making about $600-$800 a week in cash. That was a damn good gig. But working for T.G.I.Fridays where i'd make $200 a week was terrible for working 40 hours a week. It all depends on the demographic of the clientele.

When I added up what a server makes with out tips was really just to point out that on the books a server makes crap. But there is an uncertainty each day as to what you are going to make. You can work a lunch shift and make $20 or $80. depends on how busy it was, what people ordered, how many tables you got, how the kitchen does as per ticket times and food presentation and attentiveness to special orders.

There are even more variables that can be listed, and many are out of the control of the server.

[Deleted]

Although this is a popular story, you might want to google it. It is addressed on multiple sites. For example snopes provides:

Tip slipped into the language as underworld slang, with the verb 'to tip' (meaning 'to give to or share with') being used by shady characters as part of the then-current argot of petty criminals.

It still has that meaning in my language.

The police just received a tip... what do you think that was To Improve Proper Service? You think it was money they received? None like it. They received a "small benefit" in the form of advice.

[rowaasr13]

In my experience, I typically excuse foreigners. I understand that over seas servers make more per hour and do not require tips to make their expected income. But if someone is old enough and obviously has lived in the U.S. his/her whole life, I expect them to know how to tip properly.

What do you do to the rest? Murder them for not standing up to your high standards of being obsessed with you?

[Deleted]

[...]

Service is a mandatory part of the dining experience, it is not a la carte. It should not be an additional fee that the guest is expected to pay. Law needs to be passed to require employers to pay service personnel minimum wage.

(I ignored your riddle about earning 2.14 USD an hour because that is more than 5 times less than the minimum wage here. Seems like the law isn't upheld in your country. Something is very wrong with your system. You should contact your congressman immediately.)

As for service being mandatory you could do it like that or simply add it on top of the product. If you add a flat amount of money to the service (like my pizza delivery) then it simply adds flat up to the wage of the employee whereas the customer automatically pays less the more they order in one go. This stimulates the customer to pay more in one go, and adds stability to the wage by removing the fluctuations of the tip. The tip itself would still exist as a gesture of extraordinary service which is a privilege, not a right.

Also, If you care about your servers well being, Tip in Cash always! Credit Card tips are automatically taxed at the highest percentage. Servers do not make a whole lot in tips on a average, so they do not declare 100% of their tips to be taxed.

Why would the customer care about your well being? In any business relationship the customer only cares about paying; not the well being of the employment. Do you care about the well being of Foxconn employees? You don't give a rat about them do you? Foxconn is the company who builds your iPhone (a very popular smartphone in the USA) and their employees are working under severe conditions. Now, those who buy an iPhone assume the Chinese law protects employees well being and makes sure they get paid enough.

As for the customer you were talking about they want to conveniently pay (electronically paying is quite convenient, as is NFC), and doesn't want to aid you in tax evasion which is likely a felony in your state as well. According to the Wikipedia page I linked before the IRS estimates 40% of all tip money isn't taxed. Do you have any idea what one of the reasons is why Greece is in recession? TAX EVASION.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 05:22 PM ----------

Why are people still on this? I had hoped i cleared that up. The system doesn't need changing. it works just fine. Christ, op's post was just a gripe. i would have made the same complain, but would have done it not in a public forum. I also, like he, probably would have gone on merrily about my day.

I think what happened is people went way to extreme in this thread. OP made post, some called customers scum, and someone called drivers losers and shit just went down hill from there. here we are 1400 posts later and people are using the same tired arguments on both sides. Both sides are misrepresenting the issue of tipping, thus making it appear far more controversial than it is.

Well, basically people are still on this because of the massive complaints and because the system allows so much fluctuation in income and shift of responsibilities (which our system both solves) that I find it too liberal. You disagree. The system works for you, and you're happy with it. Fair enough, consider yourself lucky? I mean the post I just quoted, apparently waiter earns 2.14 USD an hour. What the f...? I earned more than that when I was 14 and delivered papers.

As for the post itself like I said tons of times it lacks details. Dazzy summed that up well a few posts back.

As for the fahrenheit comment. Using fahrenheit to measure temperature is backwards and illogical. Your whole imperial system is difficult to use, and even the stubborn and chauvinistic Brits have ditched fahrenheit for celsius and are switching more and more towards the metric system. It is OK to be wrong in hindsight, poser765. It is OK to adapt better systems from other cultures, poser765. It doesn't make your country or culture inferior. The ability to learn from the current knowledge is indeed a means to progress.

[Kathandira]

What do you do to the rest? Murder them for not standing up to your high standards of being obsessed with you?

Well..That escalated quickly..

No, I'm just disappointed in them for not knowing our customs. But I generally excuse them since it is different from the customs of where they are from.

There are foreigners who I've seen come to the same place 5 times and not tip, that's about the time I will be offended.

[poser765]

[/COLOR]Well, basically people are still on this because of the massive complaints and because the system allows so much fluctuation in income and shift of responsibilities (which our system both solves) that I find it too liberal. You disagree. The system works for you, and you're happy with it. Fair enough, consider yourself lucky? I mean the post I just quoted, apparently waiter earns 2.14 USD an hour. What the f...? I earned more than that when I was 14 and delivered papers.

As for the post itself like I said tons of times it lacks details. Dazzy summed that up well a few posts back.

As for the fahrenheit comment. Using fahrenheit to measure temperature is backwards and illogical. Your whole imperial system is difficult to use, and even the stubborn and chauvinistic Brits have ditched fahrenheit for celsius and are switching more and more towards the metric system. It is OK to be wrong in hindsight, poser765. It is OK to adapt better systems from other cultures, poser765. It doesn't make your country or culture inferior. The ability to learn from the current knowledge is indeed a means to progress.

First off I am not lucky in that the system works for me...I am rather typical. In fact i am very average...in the middle or lower end of what drivers can make.

Saying "waiters only make $2.14...wtf?" is not really fair. It's easy to say that is atrocious if you just look at it at face value. I can promise you, when adding tips to the mix NO waiter is making anywhere close to 2.14 an hour. Yes none...I specifically used an absolute, and I'll stand by it.

Fahrenheit vs Celsius is way OT but I'll give it a stab. Fahrenheit isn't backwards or illogical. Ok, maybe illogical a bit, but certainly not illogical. Most technical work in the US is done with C. My profession uses C exclusively and I'm not even a scientist. F works just fine for the average population, and in fact maybe a bit better due to it having smaller graduations in the scale. I agree that the rest of the imperial system is rather dumb. Miles piss me off, but F/C is not the best example of the superiority of metric over imperial. Wow OT.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 04:37 PM ----------

Well..That escalated quickly..

No, I'm just disappointed in them for not knowing our customs. But I generally excuse them since it is different from the customs of where they are from.

There are foreigners who I've seen come to the same place 5 times and not tip, that's about the time I will be offended.

And let me point out that by offended he means going in the back and saying "damn it, this sucks" NOT dropping a load in his pasta, or telling them to fuck off.

[Deleted]

True, When I worked for Cheese Cake Factory, I was making about $600-$800 a week in cash. That was a damn good gig. But working for T.G.I.Fridays where i'd make $200 a week was terrible for working 40 hours a week. It all depends on the demographic of the clientele.

When I added up what a server makes with out tips was really just to point out that on the books a server makes crap. But there is an uncertainty each day as to what you are going to make. You can work a lunch shift and make $20 or $80. depends on how busy it was, what people ordered, how many tables you got, how the kitchen does as per ticket times and food presentation and attentiveness to special orders.

There are even more variables that can be listed, and many are out of the control of the server.

Precisely. It is the responsibility of the boss to get clients. The server is just a tool for the boss. Now, I don't know about your country, but here you actually go to school to become a waiter (1 day a week, 4 days working), but not for pizza delivery. There's quite some distinction in quality between the two ie. a pizza delivery earns less and is lower in the chain. Either way, neither of these 2 types are responsible for marketing. Neither of these are responsible for logistics. Neither of these are doing book keeping. The boss (or a hired professional) does that! So why should their income fluctuate so much as we've read throughout the thread? Why not increase it to proper standards instead. Because poser765 says so. Well poser765 is an exception and someone who's getting the longer end of the stick in the fluctuation, but there's many who are less fortunate. Is it their fault there's less customers on monday? Is it their fault the boss got too many employees working on thursday? Its the boss fault. Let the boss pay for it, and he shall increase his efficiency.

[Deleted]

I worked in the Service industry for more than 7 years. I'll fill you in on the knowledge i acquired.

First, T.I.P.S.

This is not just a word, it has a meaning. To Insure Proper Service. When this idea started, it was not to pay your server what his employer is not. It was actually originally given at the start of the visit, to ensure you get extra special care. Example, on an important date and you want every thing to go perfectly, slip the waiter a $20 as you are seated to ensure everything meets your higher than normal expectations.

This is the problem, it was offered. It's now expected, which is why a lot of people don't pay it. Times have changed and people have changed.

The economy is poor at the moment and people don't want to offer hand outs when they don't need to. You could argue 'don't order food if you are struggling for money' which would be true, but you don't have to be short on money to be careful with it. Myself and my partner are both full time workers, we have a house, a car each and plenty of goodies inside the house, we can afford to get by but we are careful with our money. We order a takeaway around once a month as a treat and we never tip. I don't see any reason why we should. I paid for the food, I don't want any extra service, I want normal service, no more, no less. All I ask is that my food is at a suitable temperature, if it arrives as it should then I got what I paid for and i'm happy. The driver didn't do me a favour by getting the food to me. He did his job, what I paid his company for.

As I said in a previous post, I do sometimes tip when I feel it's earned, when somebody has gone out of their way to do something (by that I mean providing extra service when I didn't ask for it).

[poser765]

Precisely. It is the responsibility of the boss to get clients. The server is just a tool for the boss. Now, I don't know about your country, but here you actually go to school to become a waiter (1 day a week, 4 days working), but not for pizza delivery. There's quite some distinction in quality between the two ie. a pizza delivery earns less and is lower in the chain. Either way, neither of these 2 types are responsible for marketing. Neither of these are responsible for logistics. Neither of these are doing book keeping. The boss (or a hired professional) does that! So why should their income fluctuate so much as we've read throughout the thread? Why not increase it to proper standards instead. Because poser765 says so. Well poser765 is an exception and someone who's getting the longer end of the stick in the fluctuation, but there's many who are less fortunate. Is it their fault there's less customers on monday? Is it their fault the boss got too many employees working on thursday? Its the boss fault. Let the boss pay for it, and he shall increase his efficiency.

AGAIN I am NOT the exception. I am on the low end of the norm. THE LOW END. What do you want? Lets put all waiters and drivers at minium wage and not accept tips. Great. Now every driver and waiter gets a pay DEDUCTION as a result of their pay raise. Yes another absolute. EVERYONE.

You are drastically blowing the fluctuations WAY out of proportion. yes some does suck, but the average week to week typically makes up for that. Hell even the one person who provided an example of yearly income based solely on waiters wages admitted that the plausibility of such a scenario, where they get no tips, is so low to be completely unrealistic.

I really don't know how else to say this. I've said it about a million times, and it's just not sinking in. There is NO problem that needs to be fixed.

[shadowmouse]

First off I am not lucky in that the system works for me...I am rather typical. In fact i am very average...in the middle or lower end of what drivers can make.

Poser, you don't sound like the kind of delivery guy I have an issue with.

[poser765]

Poser, you don't sound like the kind of delivery guy I have an issue with.

lol i'm probably not. I am good at my job, take it seriously...lol even though it is largely a joke, and honestly LOVE interacting with people. I may drag my feet a bit or be not be really excited taking a delivery to a notorious non tipper, but generally I try to be super nice to them...maybe today is the day they tip.

my issue with this thread is all the hyperbole...FROM BOTH SIDES. Some of the pro tippers in this thread do nothing to sway the other side to their way of thinking because of their tone and delivery...and i promise everyone that are NOT indicative of the industry as a whole.

EDIT for a rant of my own. I am closing tonight and I usually just work late. late man does the dishes then goes home. Well we literally just got a new GM yesterday, and she decided that the closer does dishes. Shit...I was so looking forward to not doing those damn dishes.