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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galbrei View Post
    She wouldn't side with him unless she thought he could keep his seat obviously. We know he'll leave the throne because Blizzard spoiled it for us, but Sylvanas doesn't know this yet.
    True. But he isn't going to look all-powerful when 4/6 Horde races are out for his head. Sylvanas will side with those 4.
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    While she may not like him, the Forsaken have gained much more support under Garrosh's leadership and other than the plague issue was given free reign to do what they wanted.
    Lolwut? The Forsaken are under Marshall Law... Garrosh's Kor'Kron elites are now policing the entire Undercity because he doesn't trust Sylvanas. Her hands are tied. She has no interest in helping Garrosh; she wants to be unleashed so she can become the "Lich Queen: (aka do more undead experiments and resurrections). She may try to help Vol'jin but I doubt that she would be able to with her people under such armed guard.

  3. #43
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    It really amazes me that so many people are making blanket statements about the Blood Elves and the Forsaken that completely go against not only established lore, but established canon.

    A) There is no doubt that Sylvannas will stand against Garrosh if an uprising were to occur. Prior to 5.0, no other faction leader was as vocal with their disdain for Garrosh as Sylvannas. She's wittnessed him throwing away the lives of her people, he's basically called her the Bitch Queen to her face, and he's neutered the Forsaken's weaponry. She is also the only faction leader to openly protest Garrosh's decision to send troops to Theramore; she looks to Lor'themar for support and he gives her none.

    B) The Blood Elves are absolutely not standing with Garrosh. Not only has he wasted blood elven civilian lives (5.1), but Lor'themar has basically accuses Garrosh as possessing, "the same racism that drove the sin'dorei to the Horde in the first place." His entire reason for attacking Thunder Island is that he wants his people to understand how Mogu Technology works so that when Garrosh eventually acquires another item like the Divine Bell, the sin'dorei will be possed to nip his weapon in the bud.

    C) Although Sylvannas and Lor'themar have their differences, Lor'themar doesn't "hate" Sylvannas to the point that he'd stand with Garrosh just because she opposes him. That's childish, and if 5.1 does anything, it establishes that Lor'themar is a tactician. He's a thinker and a planner first and foremost, and if the Forsaken aren't happy with the Horde either, that is something he will exploit to his advantage regardless of how he feels about Sylvannas.

    D) Vol'jin sends the player a letter after Lor'themar's famous bench-flipping scene where he basically says that he and Vol'jin "need to have words" soon. And oh, look, Lor'themar is going to be stationed on Thunder Isle, allied with the Shado-Pan. Garrosh is specifically said to be preoccupied with Dominance Point and not focusing on Lor'themar's exploits on Thunder Isle. And Vol'jin was taken to the Shado-Pan Monastery to recuperate. There is absolutely no way that Vol'jin will refrain from using the player to orchestrate their meeting. In other words, the Blood Elves are not going isolationist.

    The Horde storyline is basically setting up the Horde faction leaders to rebel. So far we know Vol'jin is not happy and is ready to take down Garrosh. We also know Lor'themar is basically done with him and is looking for ways to undermine him. Sylvannas is not happy either. Baine is probably not happy, but we don't know if he's displeased enough to rebel. We also know that Thrall is guarding the Echo Islands and plans on having words with Garrosh. I would be willing to bet that the Horde's 5.2 and 5.3 storyline is focused on expanding the Horde resistance against Garrosh. There are signs that Syvannas might be involves in 5.2 and we know that it will star Lor'themar heavily. I would be willing to bet that Vol'jin gets Lor'themar on board in 5.2, Sylvannas and Baine by 5.3, and something serious happens to Thrall in 5.3 or the start of 5.4 to get the orcs who dislike Garrosh on-board. I'm also sticking to my guns that Gallywix sticks with Garrosh because he controls the Horde's coffers and he either dies as a boss encounter.
    Last edited by Rhozul; 2013-01-20 at 07:11 PM.

  4. #44
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    Yes, she should but a little reluctantly and keeping an eye out for any opportunities. Personally I think she is the most dangerous of all of the racial leaders. Most dangerous to Garrosh certainly and perhaps overall.
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  5. #45
    Considering that garrosh won't even let her watch over her own city, she'd be more than happy to remove garroshs cronies from watching her every move.

  6. #46
    Stood in the Fire Shefu's Avatar
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    Dave Kosak already stated that Sylvannas will have something to do with Garrosh's demise, therefore she won't be fighting along side him.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhozul View Post
    It really amazes me that so many people are making blanket statements about the Blood Elves and the Forsaken that completely go against not only established lore, but established canon.

    A) There is no doubt that Sylvannas will stand against Garrosh if an uprising were to occur. Prior to 5.0, no other faction leader was as vocal with their disdain for Garrosh as Sylvannas. She's wittnessed him throwing away the lives of her people, he's basically called her the Bitch Queen to her face, and he's neutered the Forsaken's weaponry. She is also the only faction leader to openly protest Garrosh's decision to send troops to Theramore; she looks to Lor'themar for support and he gives her none.

    B) The Blood Elves are absolutely not standing with Garrosh. Not only has he wasted blood elven civilian lives (5.1), but Lor'themar has basically accuses Garrosh as possessing, "the same racism that drove the sin'dorei to the Horde in the first place." His entire reason for attacking Thunder Island is that he wants his people to understand how Mogu Technology works so that when Garrosh eventually acquires another item like the Divine Bell, the sin'dorei will be possed to nip his weapon in the bud.

    C) Although Sylvannas and Lor'themar have their differences, Lor'themar doesn't "hate" Sylvannas to the point that he'd stand with Garrosh just because she opposes him. That's childish, and if 5.1 does anything, it establishes that Lor'themar is a tactician. He's a thinker and a planner first and foremost, and if the Forsaken aren't happy with the Horde either, that is something he will exploit to his advantage regardless of how he feels about Sylvannas.

    D) Vol'jin sends the player a letter after Lor'themar's famous bench-flipping scene where he basically says that he and Vol'jin "need to have words" soon. And oh, look, Lor'themar is going to be stationed on Thunder Isle, allied with the Shado-Pan. Garrosh is specifically said to be preoccupied with Dominance Point and not focusing on Lor'themar's exploits on Thunder Isle. And Vol'jin was taken to the Shado-Pan Monastery to recuperate. There is absolutely no way that Vol'jin will refrain from using the player to orchestrate their meeting. In other words, the Blood Elves are not going isolationist.

    The Horde storyline is basically setting up the Horde faction leaders to rebel. So far we know Vol'jin is not happy and is ready to take down Garrosh. We also know Lor'themar is basically done with him and is looking for ways to undermine him. Sylvannas is not happy either. Baine is probably not happy, but we don't know if he's displeased enough to rebel. We also know that Thrall is guarding the Echo Islands and plans on having words with Garrosh. I would be willing to bet that the Horde's 5.2 and 5.3 storyline is focused on expanding the Horde resistance against Garrosh. There are signs that Syvannas might be involves in 5.2 and we know that it will star Lor'themar heavily. I would be willing to bet that Vol'jin gets Lor'themar on board in 5.2, Sylvannas and Baine by 5.3, and something serious happens to Thrall in 5.3 or the start of 5.4 to get the orcs who dislike Garrosh on-board. I'm also sticking to my guns that Gallywix sticks with Garrosh because he controls the Horde's coffers and he either dies as a boss encounter.
    It really amazes me that you think the Elves and the Trolls really are a big threat to Garrosh. I think you are forgetting that the Orc's are the MAJORITY of the Horde, bit a significant amount. Regardless of the Trolls, Taurens or Elves actions, they all combined do not outnumber the Orcs, especially considering that Goblins are most likely sided with Orcs (who else would they go with? Elves?). So lets say Orcs+Goblins combined is an INSANELY huge number. So who do you think Sylvanas would side with? The obvious "losing" side (although it may not be the case, it is at first glance). Or the side which probably actually defines the term "horde"?

    I really do not think Sylvanas cares about her dignity as much as being on the winning side, even if Garrosh killed each of her sisters infront of her face, and was the winning side, she would still side with him.

    She DOES NOT have to like him just to have to side with him. Benefits>Dignity in her eyes.
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  8. #48
    No she shouldn't she hates Garrosh and would take great pleasure in killing her. Yes we all know you don't like the Forsaken for ruining your kingdom of furries but she's not going to be on the loosing side on this one.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shefu View Post
    Dave Kosak already stated that Sylvannas will have something to do with Garrosh's demise, therefore she won't be fighting along side him.
    I think it would be best if you go re-listen to the interview. They said that she will play a role, but what role that will be is unknown. So I think it is safe to assume that she will play a role towards the end of dethroning Garrosh, but at the start she will favour power.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Wollveren View Post
    It really amazes me that you think the Elves and the Trolls really are a big threat to Garrosh. I think you are forgetting that the Orc's are the MAJORITY of the Horde, bit a significant amount.
    Your mistake is thinking all of the orcs will be under his sway come the expansions climax. He'll have a small core of loyalists left he most of the orcs will join the rebellion,

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulletnips View Post
    Your mistake is thinking all of the orcs will be under his sway come the expansions climax. He'll have a small core of loyalists left he most of the orcs will join the rebellion,
    So far that is the case? Just go look at Orgimmar, they are all in favour of Garrosh over Thrall, I remember once seeing a quest where Thrall goes to Orgrimmar, a Kor'kon (or however you spell it) guard stopped him INTENTIONALLY knowing that he was Thrall (the old warchief). And clearly states that he cares not for Thrall any more because he thinks he is "weak". You think most of these Orcs see the atrocities the Garrosh commit? Nope, they just believe what he says. The whole "honour" crap he always says.

    The only Orcs who would revolt would probably be part of Thralls group, and even that would be a small number. Why do you think the other races will need the Alliances help? Because Garrosh's group of loyalists are TOO BIG in number.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Wollveren View Post
    I really do not think Sylvanas cares about her dignity as much as being on the winning side, even if Garrosh killed each of her sisters infront of her face, and was the winning side, she would still side with him.

    She DOES NOT have to like him just to have to side with him. Benefits>Dignity in her eyes.
    The Forsaken are the ones to tip the scales towards the success of the rebellion. Like others said, she will not side with someone who has her locked down in her own city, she wants to be free, conduct the experiments, make more forsaken, etc. This points to her joining the rebels.
    Besides she wants power, and the best way to gain more power within the Horde, is to dwindle the number of the other biggest faction

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Wollveren View Post
    I think it would be best if you go re-listen to the interview. They said that she will play a role, but what role that will be is unknown. So I think it is safe to assume that she will play a role towards the end of dethroning Garrosh, but at the start she will favour power.
    They both hate each other, there's a reason why she isn't helping Garrosh in Pandaria. After relistening I can see that Kosak was a little vague, but he could have meant anything by it, she could be the first to openly rebel against Garrosh. All I know is that she will not be killed this expac due to the fact the windrunner reunion hasn't happend yet.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 07:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wollveren View Post

    She DOES NOT have to like him just to have to side with him. Benefits>Dignity in her eyes.
    Sylvanas doesn't see any benefits from Garrosh and his actions as seen in ToW and her short story.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceilingpony View Post
    The Forsaken are the ones to tip the scales towards the success of the rebellion. Like others said, she will not side with someone who has her locked down in her own city, she wants to be free, conduct the experiments, make more forsaken, etc. This points to her joining the rebels.
    Besides she wants power, and the best way to gain more power within the Horde, is to dwindle the number of the other biggest faction
    The same goes the other way too... She won't side with a bunch of rebels who really are outnumbered by the Orcs and Goblins, and overpowered by him. Garrosh is a force to be reckoned with, Taurens+Elves are nothing when combined. Perhaps the only real threat is the Forsaken and the Trolls (to an extent).
    Even if Garrosh tries to regulate what she does, he still gives her freedom. He let her and only her army take Gilneas, Garrosh could have easily sent his own troops, but no, he trusted her in this one thing.

    You also say that she wants to be free, conduct experiments and make more Forsaken, the Trolls, Tauren and the Elves are the LAST factions of the Horde which would allow that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 11:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkenedfist View Post
    They both hate each other, there's a reason why she isn't helping Garrosh in Pandaria. After relistening I can see that Kosak was a little vague, but he could have meant anything by it, she could be the first to openly rebel against Garrosh. All I know is that she will not be killed this expac due to the fact the windrunner reunion hasn't happend yet.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 07:32 PM ----------



    Sylvanas doesn't see any benefits from Garrosh and his actions as seen in ToW and her short story.
    I understand it, I too think it would be absurd if they killed her off like that. TWO horde leaders slain? Thats too much, but she doesn't have to die to also side with Garrosh. She could last minute change her mind and go against him when everything goes to shit, and she is the type of person who would do that.
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  15. #55
    Wrathion said it himself, Sylvanas is in the horde as a matter of convenience. She stands to gain so much more with the death of Garrosh than him staying alive, or as the leader of the horde.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icarris View Post
    Wrathion said it himself, Sylvanas is in the horde as a matter of convenience. She stands to gain so much more with the death of Garrosh than him staying alive, or as the leader of the horde.
    That would be the case if Garrosh was an easy target... but he is not. She can't just stroll in and "pop a cap in his face" (went Ghetto there). Infact she would LOSE more if Garrosh was dethroned (unless there was a suitable substitute). If Garrosh goes down, the Horde gets weaker. This results in an all out civil war with the loyalists of Garrosh and the rest of the Horde. Which would inevitably lead to a weaker "horde". Which is not in the best interest of Sylvanas.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Wollveren View Post
    Which would inevitably lead to a weaker "horde". Which is not in the best interest of Sylvanas.
    Maybe it is. Weak horde would be more dependant on certain unconventional tactics.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Wollveren View Post
    It really amazes me that you think the Elves and the Trolls really are a big threat to Garrosh. I think you are forgetting that the Orc's are the MAJORITY of the Horde, bit a significant amount. Regardless of the Trolls, Taurens or Elves actions, they all combined do not outnumber the Orcs, especially considering that Goblins are most likely sided with Orcs (who else would they go with? Elves?). So lets say Orcs+Goblins combined is an INSANELY huge number. So who do you think Sylvanas would side with? The obvious "losing" side (although it may not be the case, it is at first glance). Or the side which probably actually defines the term "horde"?

    I really do not think Sylvanas cares about her dignity as much as being on the winning side, even if Garrosh killed each of her sisters infront of her face, and was the winning side, she would still side with him.

    She DOES NOT have to like him just to have to side with him. Benefits>Dignity in her eyes.
    the scourge outnumbered the forsaken and the horde pretty badly. in fact, the scourge was the "zerg" faction of azeroth, who outnumbers everybody. but who did sylvanas side with?

    sylvanas is an elven ranger. rangers fight with guerrilla tactics. to them, a good and dedicated few in the right places with the right tactics can defeat an army.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Maybe it is. Weak horde would be more dependant on certain unconventional tactics.
    A weaker Horde would result in the destruction of the Forsaken :S Who would be defending the cities of the Horde against the full might of the Alliance? Just imagine how easy it would be to pick off each of the cities with the Orcs in a full on civil war. No Kok'kron, no organised army. Just a bunch of races fighting for their last breath. I see no reason why the Alliance would not take this moment to reclaim Lordaeron, they already tried it during Wrathgate. Sylvanas stands no chance without the Orcs, and that goes the same for all the other races.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 11:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    the scourge outnumbered the forsaken and the horde pretty badly. in fact, the scourge was the "zerg" faction of azeroth, who outnumbers everybody. but who did sylvanas side with?

    sylvanas is an elven ranger. rangers fight with guerrilla tactics. to them, a good and dedicated few in the right places with the right tactics can defeat an army.
    A good dedicated few really mean nothing against the Alliance forces mate. SI:7 would kick their asses any day Need I remind you that also Night Elves are also trained in these tactics, so it would't really be new. And also what other rangers are the left in the Horde? A couple of Elves and Sylvanas Not really a threat tbh.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Wollveren View Post
    The same goes the other way too... She won't side with a bunch of rebels who really are outnumbered by the Orcs and Goblins, and overpowered by him. Garrosh is a force to be reckoned with, Taurens+Elves are nothing when combined. Perhaps the only real threat is the Forsaken and the Trolls (to an extent).
    Even if Garrosh tries to regulate what she does, he still gives her freedom. He let her and only her army take Gilneas, Garrosh could have easily sent his own troops, but no, he trusted her in this one thing.

    You also say that she wants to be free, conduct experiments and make more Forsaken, the Trolls, Tauren and the Elves are the LAST factions of the Horde which would allow that.[COLOR="red"]
    While i dont have any concrete data on the number of the factions, i belive that the Orcs and the Forsaken are around the same size and Taurens, BEs, Trolls easily outnumber the Goblins. So in sheer numbers, the rebels (Forsaken included) are bigger than the Orc and the Goblins.
    I think that she has a choise now: either be the bitch of Garrosh, or slap him in the face, while thinning their numbers. The latter also means that the Forsaken getting more and more powerful within the Horde. Isn't that her dream anyway? First the Horde, than the whole world, ofc

    You are right, that Trolls, Tauren and BEs won't agree with her experiments, but they shouldn't know about that. Right now she is closely monitored but - i assume -, after a successful isurrection she would be left on a longer leash, or no leash at all.

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