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  1. #1

    Is warcraft better of with mediocre or weakened ellves?

    or am I the only one who really liked Elves, strong, mystical, wise and beyond all their peers? Perhaps. I was looking at Lord of the Rings the film, the hobbit, and refreshing on some of the other tolkein works, and am amazed how well done they are in that fictional setting. Then coming to warcraft, they have a very amazing backstory, but it's not fleshed out with nearly as well the same finesse as Tolkein, it is still grand, but afterwards it kinda just declines, in wow, Elves just seem like weakened, lesser versions of humans.

    I did like the idea of a super human race though, embodying all the ideals, strengths, excelling that human beings should do but are not because of the poor decisions they often make. It isn't realistic to make humans this race at all off course, as being human, they must reflect us. But this was the purpose of the Elves was it not, wha t woudl it be like if everyone was wise, did everything to the best of hteir abilities, everyone was intelligent and gifted, and new ancient secrets and access to power, could see easily through deception and weren't plagued by confusion, lies etc, havin gthe wisdom to alwyas stay true, and thus access phenomenal abilities like magic that are largely latent to most humans.

    When i first started following warcraft, it did seem that the Elven race, both High elves and night elves were exactly this, although the too groups had a fundamental difference which did allow for interesting things to be written into them, but it may be that I don't know much about them, but they don't come off as all that at all now, like they did when i played, and read about them in the warcraft 2 and 3 eras and the rpg board-game.

  2. #2
    The Insane GennGreymane's Avatar
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    its odd that citizens of races that are thousands of years old are stupid

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  3. #3
    Tolkien was making a world to be read and experienced, not participated in. Creating a world to be played in as a game requires balance, or you'll have everyone playing the one super race that dominates at everything, and no one wanting to play the other obviously inferior races. So they HAD to nerf elves from the Tolkien version.

  4. #4
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aurondarklord View Post
    Tolkien was making a world to be read and experienced, not participated in. Creating a world to be played in as a game requires balance, or you'll have everyone playing the one super race that dominates at everything, and no one wanting to play the other obviously inferior races. So they HAD to nerf elves from the Tolkien version.
    Warhammer has had tons of games despite involving elves in fantasy and space marines in 40k, even a pvp mmo as I recall?

  5. #5
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Warhammer has had tons of games despite involving elves in fantasy and space marines in 40k, even a pvp mmo as I recall?
    Tolkien Elves and Warhammer Elves are two entirely different races, and not necessarily comparable.
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  6. #6
    We dont need omnipotent elves, just competent ones. Fortunately Horde has competent ones, blood elves are being written quite well. Night Elves continue to be incompetent, bungling imbecilles and won't change so long as they are Alliance and a favoured cannon fodder for the cdevs.

  7. #7
    Night Elfs do have some issues (weak) but don't start comparign them to Tolkiens Elfs..

    Tolkiens Elfs are much weaker then Blizzards Elfs

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Humbugged's Avatar
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    Its apparent in Lord of the Rings (Im horribly terribly sorry but I haven't seen The Hobbit please dont kill me I really really wanted to :c) that Elves are basically this master race that far surpasses Humans. Spoken about in Hobbit legend and the greatest magical beings and marksman of the land. Their eyesight is incredible, they are gorgeously beautiful, they are born as everything a human tries to be and more. Then Tolkien wrote off Dwarves as bumbling alcoholic imbeciles. does Gimli even do ANYTHING useful in LOTR aside from being comic relief?

    I like the way elves are in Warcraft. They are powerful, yet their flaws keep them from using their power to the full potential.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Humbugged View Post
    Its apparent in Lord of the Rings (Im horribly terribly sorry but I haven't seen The Hobbit please dont kill me I really really wanted to :c) that Elves are basically this master race that far surpasses Humans. Spoken about in Hobbit legend and the greatest magical beings and marksman of the land. Their eyesight is incredible, they are gorgeously beautiful, they are born as everything a human tries to be and more. Then Tolkien wrote off Dwarves as bumbling alcoholic imbeciles. does Gimli even do ANYTHING useful in LOTR aside from being comic relief?

    I like the way elves are in Warcraft. They are powerful, yet their flaws keep them from using their power to the full potential.
    lol, you definitely need to read or see the hobbit, Tolkein did not write of dwarrves as bumbling alcoholic imeciles, Gimli does not come off as an imbecile in LotR, but the Hobbit is really all about dwarves, and is really good.

    Secondly, the way Tollkein writes elves, they're amazing, but not so far beyond, that humans cannot reach their levels. His races are far more intricately written, he spent a life time on them compared to warcrats 20 odd years, you find that the Men of Numenor rise to the potential that humans can, and start doing some really amazing feats in their time, as good as any of the Moriquendi Elves or the Sindari Elves.

    The Calequendi Elves become an entire diffferent category of being though, they have been enlightened, as they have lived amongst the Valar and gained much skill, knowledge, wisdom, and perception, think of a human being living amongst angels in heaven, a level of reality and existence, they would have, returning to earth, they would certianly outstrip every other human who hasnt' had this expereince, even the ones who do firmly believe in it and certianly the ones still riddled in doubt, darkness and confusion.

    They'd have a light in them by virtue of their high status..so it is with the Tolkein equivalent of high elves, which is why in LOTRO online you can play an elf i think but not a "high" elf persay.

    STill i like what rift did, you want a ordinary human being, the player character isn't a ordinary human being, you are returned from the paast naturally enhanced above all the existing natural born people of your race as you have been enhanced 0 whether by supernatural beings or by genetic engineering. However there are other ways to maintain a playing balance, and still have super races in a game. Dungeons and DRagons rule set goes about doing this by putting certain penalties and advantages etc on the race, for e.g. certain races you can't even play at level 1, they start at a much higher level, proving that an individual of a not so powerful race can reach that height, but not at the start, as a player you should also remember that you are usually the exception of your race not the norm.

    Certainly as a human you would be the exception not the norm, as an elf however, you would be the norm, cos you're alll pretty much quite incredible, different culture. Furthermore, they do not have to trnalsate racial advantages into gameplay either, but still have them in lore. for e.g. Elves see further, and hear much further than all the other races, they are also wiser and more magical- you don't have to give them an ability for that, but it can show up many times in the lore and the quest stories. afterall, since we can all zoom out, how would you manifest superior eyesight in gameplay terms? conclusion is you don't have to. Accuracy, Elves don't miss with their bows, but many others do, however we know that in game 40 yards distance no hunter shot misses. So you don't have to give Elves higher accuracy (hit) rating at all, becuase in your game nobody misses when they can take a shot, you cannot fire your weapon if you're longer than 40 yards, doens't mean in the lore Elves won't be a better shot by far in general than most other races. it has no relevance in gameplay but does in lore.

    It's a choice developers make. Horde and Alliance do not have to be equal at all, you don't have to have equally competent , intelligent, honourable races alll of them having exactly the same number of leaders, same structure, equal number of zones or any of that, 80% of the world could be horde controlled, wouldn't stop both sides from adventuring in 100% of it. In fact they could even make all controlled terrirtories in world of warcraft quest zones by the other faction. IF it is an early zone they don't want any pvp ing yet, like the level 1-20 zones, they could simply use a different phase of that zone for the opposing faction. If they wanted, or they could just disable pvp in all 1-20 zones, and allow a mix. What i'm saying is that just cos you have two factions doens't mean it all hast obe the same

    doesn't mean every race has to be the same, or what is the point in the diversity that was created in the original warcraft? It is alright and even good to have your super humans, your normal humans, your oafish humans, your miser humans, your nerdy humans, your brutish humans, your creepy humans, your wild-crazy supersitious humans, your greedy humans etc. Some can be as a race much stronger, but not quite intelligent, some much faster, but not quite as strong, some can be more of everything, others less of everything. It is fine for the races to be different, only the players need to be the same. By doing that you show taht yeah eveyrone can have different start points, but any can rise to the best height. Amongst the elves, generally all of them have or nearly all of them have riseen to that level, amongst the humans only a small percentage will. The orcs don't value wholeness and whole perfection, strength and victory is everything, so altho an orc player can really rise to be that super all rounder, the race as a whole in the lore doesn't give a rats ass and will be greater in terms of physical strength on the whole than your average human but not as accomplished.

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Yeah I'm not really a fan of perfect tolkienesque elves.

    Night elves have gotten shafted lately but I like current Blood elf stuff.

    Sick of High elves though.
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  11. #11
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humbugged View Post
    Its apparent in Lord of the Rings (Im horribly terribly sorry but I haven't seen The Hobbit please dont kill me I really really wanted to :c) that Elves are basically this master race that far surpasses Humans. Spoken about in Hobbit legend and the greatest magical beings and marksman of the land. Their eyesight is incredible, they are gorgeously beautiful, they are born as everything a human tries to be and more. Then Tolkien wrote off Dwarves as bumbling alcoholic imbeciles. does Gimli even do ANYTHING useful in LOTR aside from being comic relief?

    I like the way elves are in Warcraft. They are powerful, yet their flaws keep them from using their power to the full potential.
    Dwarves are far from 'bumbling alcoholic imbeciles'; that is a face value interpretation. Gimli is actually a very interesting character in the books (you've clearly just watched the movie) that moves away from the prejudices of his kind to one of friendship and respect of the Elves and other races. Dwarves as a whole are culturally based off the Jews; they have their own 'secret language', belief in themselves as the chosen people of a particular god, their retension of a cultural identity despite their surroundings, etc. They are written as a very noble people, although one of curious origins versus Elves and Men, with their flaws but also with great virtue.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-20 at 12:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Yeah I'm not really a fan of perfect tolkienesque elves.

    Night elves have gotten shafted lately but I like current Blood elf stuff.

    Sick of High elves though.
    Tolkien's Elves are actually not perfect, that is one of the key driving points of the legendarium. They succumbed to pride, greed, vanity just as humans did, although in different ways and for different reasons.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post

    Tolkien's Elves are actually not perfect, that is one of the key driving points of the legendarium. They succumbed to pride, greed, vanity just as humans did, although in different ways and for different reasons.
    I was thinking more in terms of the idealized version the elves that the OP painted, I just don't see the point of a race that's 'perfect at everything humans aren't" especially when most elves in wow have been short sighted and opportunistic. They don't 'always stay true' or 'see through deception'.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  13. #13
    Furthermore, they do not have to trnalsate racial advantages into gameplay either, but still have them in lore. for e.g. Elves see further, and hear much further than all the other races, they are also wiser and more magical- you don't have to give them an ability for that, but it can show up many times in the lore and the quest stories.
    Blizzard has given many racials a direct tie in with lore:

    Blood Elves are magically inclined, so they are more adept enchanters (racial), had resistance to the arcane (a now nerfed racial), and the ability to disrupt spell casting with a torrent of arcane power.

    Night Elves are supposedly agile, so they were harder to hit (a nerfed racial changed to dodge), could slip into the shadows (racial), and were very nature-inclined, hence their resistance to nature damage (now nerfed).

    More "magical" and "wiser" was expressed in other races with racials like expansive mind for gnomes or human spirit for humans. To demonstrate that Elves had superior prowess with a bow, increased ranged hit/crit could've been implemented as a racial, as it was for dwarves and trolls (guns/bows respectively) but that isn't the case. Night Elves currently have some of the worst racials in the game. Shadowmeld is very situational and dodge is mediocre at best for tanks, worthless for anything else (miss was much better).

    All the same Elves get written in lore as doing things they don't do in game. It doesn't mean much to a player though.

  14. #14
    I kinda prefer warhammer elves, the warhammer high elves to be exact. Cocky, arrogant, everyone is beneath them...makes it much more sweet when I get to read about them being slaughtered by dwarves in warhammer books :P All hail the Dawi!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post

    Tolkien's Elves are actually not perfect, that is one of the key driving points of the legendarium. They succumbed to pride, greed, vanity just as humans did, although in different ways and for different reasons.
    indeed, i notice people bandy about perfect too easily when it comes to tolkein's elves, they are actually an excellent model to use, because i did like his vision of what humans could possibly rise too, if we were far more careful to do the right things, yet without losing their humanity, cos you never get the impression that elves can't help but be perfect, they have much humanity to them, they get tempted and riled, enraged, feel grief, pain loss all those things, yet despite, they still have a very low error rate, but you also do see them make errors as well, they can be fooled, but it's not an easy thing to do either.

    i'm not sure when or why blizzard decided making their elves fumbling, bumbling bafoons was a good thing, , now no one holds that position, sure they could raise another race to that position that the night elves use to have, but that would be overusing - because it iwll appear like every new race is the IT thing, an unnecessary addition where you could use the already existing race you introduced for that same purpose still. Besides, again, it just seems a bit false that all of a sudden you have new races that is now super human and uper good in every way and are just amazing, in the space of a few short years.

    Fantasy writing has to be good and be as realisitic as possible so we can relate to it, to make up for the unrealistic things like different races and magic etc that are in it, otherwise it just ends up being bad

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    i'm not sure when or why blizzard decided making their elves fumbling, bumbling bafoons was a good thing
    To be fair, it's only the Night Elves who have this dumped upon them, to show how other races are so much better and all the hard lessons they learned and values/knowledge they've accrued over the millennia is nothing of any substance at all. Blood Elves do not share this symptomology. In BC, Blood Elves were a calculated and vengeful bunch. They moved on to be a race in transition, Blood Knights no longer being malicious, Naaru-draining madmen but noble souls, wielding the Light through faith and honour. In Cata they still dealt with an image and identity crisis, still an outlier in the Horde but determined to make their mark on it. And now, in MoP, they are coming forward as a power in of themselves, as they once were, but now they have the ability to influence the direction they wish their Horde to go, rather than being sidelined or silently along for the ride. So Blizzard does have it's really good elves, the Blood Elves, while Night Elves continue to flounder and fail in the Alliance, Blood Elves seem to be coming up as leaders in the Horde.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Blizzard has given many racials a direct tie in with lore:

    Blood Elves are magically inclined, so they are more adept enchanters (racial), had resistance to the arcane (a now nerfed racial), and the ability to disrupt spell casting with a torrent of arcane power.

    Night Elves are supposedly agile, so they were harder to hit (a nerfed racial changed to dodge), could slip into the shadows (racial), and were very nature-inclined, hence their resistance to nature damage (now nerfed).

    More "magical" and "wiser" was expressed in other races with racials like expansive mind for gnomes or human spirit for humans. To demonstrate that Elves had superior prowess with a bow, increased ranged hit/crit could've been implemented as a racial, as it was for dwarves and trolls (guns/bows respectively) but that isn't the case. Night Elves currently have some of the worst racials in the game. Shadowmeld is very situational and dodge is mediocre at best for tanks, worthless for anything else (miss was much better).

    All the same Elves get written in lore as doing things they don't do in game. It doesn't mean much to a player though.
    and that's one of the things about racials in-game, they don't reflect the whole thing, and then lead to the impression that the lack thereof means that the race doesn't have it, which is misleading.

    i think having one ability that captures a particular hallmark feature of the race is the way to go, scrap all the additional racials and leave the hallmark racial. for e.g. night elves shadowmled, and blood elf arcane torrent.

    they gave trolls bow skill, yet in the lore it is clear elves are the better marksmen with the bow yet don't have the skill as a racial, so does that mean trolls are better or elves aren't particularly skilled?

    it goes on, night elves are supposedly just as intelligent if not more so than blood elves since they are still being suffused by the well of eternity depsite losing the immortality granted them by being linked to nordrassil that also shielded them from sickness and gave them a high magic resistance. They still remain stronger, taller and wiser than a well-of-eternity severed elf would be - yet we associate night elves more with agility than intelligence, having many think that gnomes, goblins and blood elves are all more intelligent because of racials and starting stats.

    which isn't the case in lore, however, for gameplay, they made every race equal in total and just varied the stats, they couldn't give Night elves high agility, and high intellect and high strength on top of that and high spirit - to reflect how they had written them in lore, because the player character has to be equal. Dungeons and dragons have no qualms about doing that, they just set different penalties elsewhere. So you are left unsure of what you can take from the game as canon, and what you can't. Resurrection abiliteis are another example, no one can resurrect in the lore, yet it is constantly employed in many forms in game.

    I like what George Lucas and his team did to manage such a large franchise, and would suggest blizzard do similar for warcraft, they defined canon for various different sources. for books, films etc, by distinguishing the different types of canon. Games are canon as far as conversations, story, cut-scenes etc go , but not strictly so in terms of abilities, stats etc which have no definable qualities, same with weapons and items etc, hearthstones should they appear in a star wars game would not be part of the canon but still acceptable to have in the game.

    Question is though, do blizzard want to take this franchise further into films, tv series, animated series etc etc. If so, they have to be more specific of what is canon and what is. starting stats? racials? hearthstones? spells?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    and that's one of the things about racials in-game, they don't reflect the whole thing, and then lead to the impression that the lack thereof means that the race doesn't have it, which is misleading.

    i think having one ability that captures a particular hallmark feature of the race is the way to go, scrap all the additional racials and leave the hallmark racial. for e.g. night elves shadowmled, and blood elf arcane torrent.
    they did that for every race though. It becomes an issue of mechanical balance. Right now its still not even balanced. Orcs and Trolls get signature racials that are superior in pve to everything else other than each other.

    they gave trolls bow skill, yet in the lore it is clear elves are the better marksmen with the bow yet don't have the skill as a racial, so does that mean trolls are better or elves aren't particularly skilled?
    Apparently so. Lots of other races have expertise/hit racials with specific weapons. So that translates to being better with them. ofc Blood Elves are superior magisters so they have good magic oriented racials. Night Elves aren't good at crap, hence crap racials Lol.

    it goes on, night elves are supposedly just as intelligent if not more so than blood elves since they are still being suffused by the well of eternity depsite losing the immortality granted them by being linked to nordrassil that also shielded them from sickness and gave them a high magic resistance. They still remain stronger, taller and wiser than a well-of-eternity severed elf would be - yet we associate night elves more with agility than intelligence, having many think that gnomes, goblins and blood elves are all more intelligent because of racials and starting stats.
    Intellect doesn't equal intelligence directly. It's a stat for spell power and initially mana pool size. Night Elves traditionally shunned the Arcane in all its forms so why would they have more Arcane magically oriented racials that Blood Elves and Gnomes, which embrace the Arcane have? Additionally the strongest mages in WoW are largely Humans, and Humans don't have major intellect buffs. The most powerful warlocks and Shamans around are Orcs, and no one associates magic with them at all, for some reason. Night Elves supposedly have immensely powerful Druids and Priests/Priestess in their ranks, but it doesn't translate to racials very well.

    which isn't the case in lore, however, for gameplay, they made every race equal in total and just varied the stats, they couldn't give Night elves high agility, and high intellect and high strength on top of that and high spirit - to reflect how they had written them in lore, because the player character has to be equal. Dungeons and dragons have no qualms about doing that, they just set different penalties elsewhere. So you are left unsure of what you can take from the game as canon, and what you can't. Resurrection abiliteis are another example, no one can resurrect in the lore, yet it is constantly employed in many forms in game.
    Resurrections happen in lore, the resurrector needs to be powerful and the fallen needs to be freshly dead with an intact or at least total sum of parts, corpse to resurrect. I don't think giving Night Elves overpowered racials compared to every other race is a solution. BUt Racials are *not* equal nor balanced. Night Elves have terrible racials, other races are vastly superior. What does that mean in lore? Well, Night Elves are cannon fodder and others aren't. People don't play Night Elves for their racials they play them for the lore and aesthetics.

    I like what George Lucas and his team did to manage such a large franchise, and would suggest blizzard do similar for warcraft, they defined canon for various different sources. for books, films etc, by distinguishing the different types of canon. Games are canon as far as conversations, story, cut-scenes etc go , but not strictly so in terms of abilities, stats etc which have no definable qualities, same with weapons and items etc, hearthstones should they appear in a star wars game would not be part of the canon but still acceptable to have in the game.
    Warcraft doesn't have movies to go to. They have the game which defined a bulk of the lore, and then licensed novels, followed by licensed short stories (like Quest for Pandaria, etc) and magazines.

    Question is though, do blizzard want to take this franchise further into films, tv series, animated series etc etc. If so, they have to be more specific of what is canon and what is. starting stats? racials? hearthstones? spells?
    If Blizzard wants to make a movie or TV show they need to make it read like a movie and not a combat log. Novels cover this well, fan-fics tend not to. Pained for example, wielded a massive 2 handed sword and was fast as lightning in combat. It shows a Night Elf can be immensely strong and furious in battle. But she was like that cause she's a trained warrior, not a fish vendor in Darnassus, who probably wouldn't stand a chance against a thug with a sword.

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    indeed, i notice people bandy about perfect too easily when it comes to tolkein's elves, they are actually an excellent model to use, because i did like his vision of what humans could possibly rise too, if we were far more careful to do the right things, yet without losing their humanity, cos you never get the impression that elves can't help but be perfect, they have much humanity to them, they get tempted and riled, enraged, feel grief, pain loss all those things, yet despite, they still have a very low error rate, but you also do see them make errors as well, they can be fooled, but it's not an easy thing to do either.

    i'm not sure when or why blizzard decided making their elves fumbling, bumbling bafoons was a good thing, , now no one holds that position, sure they could raise another race to that position that the night elves use to have, but that would be overusing - because it iwll appear like every new race is the IT thing, an unnecessary addition where you could use the already existing race you introduced for that same purpose still. Besides, again, it just seems a bit false that all of a sudden you have new races that is now super human and uper good in every way and are just amazing, in the space of a few short years.

    Fantasy writing has to be good and be as realisitic as possible so we can relate to it, to make up for the unrealistic things like different races and magic etc that are in it, otherwise it just ends up being bad


    1. You implied you wanted elves that were superior to humans in everything and repeatedly use perfect in describing them :P

    2. Because they can only make humans look good sadly, orcs have to be evil, tauren and trolls are pushovers, night elves suffer the worf effect, etc...

    3. Unfortunately our writers are largely focused on comicbook-esque plots and the like.
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  20. #20
    Warcraft's elves are more creatures than idealized humans like Tolkien's are. High Elves tow the line, but night elves are 7-9 foot tall agile creatures that are more like orcs than humans.
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