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  1. #1

    Will enhancement and elemental be PVP viable in 5.2?

    Hi, guys

    Do you think DPS shamans will be better in 5.2 in PVP? Everyone expects the patch to be flooded with monks and rogues, how do you think enhancement / elemental does against these 2 chasses?

    I'd really like to play my shaman in pvp, maybe 5.2 is the right time for it?

  2. #2
    Ele looks to be in a pretty good spot for RBG's in 5.2.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitond View Post
    Ele looks to be in a pretty good spot for RBG's in 5.2.
    Nothing will change, we suck now and will still suck after patch for rbg. No spammable cc, low damage, easly locked, squishiest caster of all. Did I mention low damage?

    Before anyone starts screaming I play ele at 2300 rating in rbg.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    Nothing will change, we suck now and will still suck after patch for rbg. No spammable cc, low damage, easly locked, squishiest caster of all. Did I mention low damage?

    Before anyone starts screaming I play ele at 2300 rating in rbg.
    You forgot low damage.
    Tinker + Alchemist in a single class:
    Tank spec: robotics, steampunk hammers/chainsaws, grappling hooks and heavy machinery.
    Melee dps spec: doping yourself with chems and tossing vicious acids on the enemies.
    Ranged dps: rockets, lasers, TNT critters and explosives, shrink rays and sapper mines.
    Healing spec: chemical sprays, needles, exploding flasks and other chemical type abilities to heal.

  5. #5
    Field Marshal
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    Ele seems to have has a quite nice buff in both PVP and PVE, not that im saying its enough to bring it to the front of the pack, but its a start. What's more significant i feel is that our problems are at least being acknowledged for a change, which could be a gate-way to more significant changes. From a PVE perspective im really looking forward to our new tier-sets aswell. Looking to be dominating AoE atleast.

    Enhancement on the other hand, i have seen virtually no changes of significance at all, and the few that have come are looking to be nerfs, that, combined with a loss of some tier bonuses and underwhelming new ones means that we will only be looking to go downhill in PVE (not that we're in a bad spot right now). Although it WILL be intereting to see whether blizzard can convince us to change our talents around, id love to try and sneak EB into my rotation somehow.
    PVP wise, things look REALLY bleak though, we're already massively under-represented due to a real lack of "-ness" to our specc, nothing outstanding or shining in any department tbh which makes us undesirable when any comp can take a warrior instead. the healing buff is nice, but not exactly shaman specific. What im dreading most of all will be the rise of the orgue, who have always been my biggest weakness as a shaman, if all the FotM-warriors re-roll to rogues with their new buffs ill be having a very bad day.

  6. #6
    Ele seems okay, the problem is just that Elemental is very dependant on Comp,Hpally is virtually a mandatory healer for Elemental.

    Secondly, you need a Caster, Thundercleave won't work because FS is too easily dispelled, so only Lock / Sp / Mage remain a viable option.

    Outside of that, the real issue is that most people just tell you to play Resto if you play Shaman decently.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2013-01-20 at 10:11 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    Nothing will change, we suck now and will still suck after patch for rbg. No spammable cc, low damage, easly locked, squishiest caster of all. Did I mention low damage?

    Before anyone starts screaming I play ele at 2300 rating in rbg.
    Elemental isn't top tier, but we bring a lot to a RBG team.

    * Purge - Ele spamming kill targets
    * Low Cooldown ranged interupts on locks/mages or healers
    * Good cleave damage for choke points
    * CC that doesn't immediately break on damage
    * CC that is a curse instead of magic
    * Thunderstorm
    * Totems: Magma for flags, HST for heals and damage reduction, Tremor, Earthbind, Windwalk, Stormlash, grounding, capacitor
    * Off-heals
    * Amazing Burst w/Ascendance

    In a RBGs our biggest weakness (survivability) gets mitigated by others. An elemental shaman won't be able to solo defend a node like other classes, but this doesn't mean we suck. Yeah were not putting out numbers like a boomkin, but our cleave damage is getting a pretty big buff next patch.

    I'm not saying elemental doesn't need some love. I still think we need more to be competitive in Arena, but for RBG's we are largely fine.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitond View Post
    Elemental isn't top tier, but we bring a lot to a RBG team.

    * Purge - Ele spamming kill targets
    * Low Cooldown ranged interupts on locks/mages or healers
    * Good cleave damage for choke points
    * CC that doesn't immediately break on damage
    * CC that is a curse instead of magic
    * Thunderstorm
    * Totems: Magma for flags, HST for heals and damage reduction, Tremor, Earthbind, Windwalk, Stormlash, grounding, capacitor
    * Off-heals
    * Amazing Burst w/Ascendance

    In a RBGs our biggest weakness (survivability) gets mitigated by others. An elemental shaman won't be able to solo defend a node like other classes, but this doesn't mean we suck. Yeah were not putting out numbers like a boomkin, but our cleave damage is getting a pretty big buff next patch.

    I'm not saying elemental doesn't need some love. I still think we need more to be competitive in Arena, but for RBG's we are largely fine.
    Purge : A dk does a better job (range)
    Low cd interupt: its a kick at best 3 sec shorter then other kicks, not that good.
    Cleavedamage: there is none. Cl doesnt jump at all in rbg, because everyone is mobile, aka ooming low damage.+
    Cc that doesnt break on damage: Ill give you that but I'll take a spammable cc over that horrible hex anyday.
    CC that is curse: is not a pro in rbg more classes can decurse then dispell.
    Thunderstorm: isnt used. On ab, you cant risk going to the edge(restodrood knocking off, bad positioning), on eots there is rocks around the middle. mass gripping + solarbeam + ring. 10 times better.
    Totems: the only ones that matter are capicator and tremor. Occiasnoly a grounding on a chaosbolt.
    offheals: where? 20k healing surges.. And as ele your are not healing you are there for damage, shouldnt heal at all.
    Amazing burst w acedance: not not really. 1 cs and 8 sec is gone not to mention the fact you usually cant cast at all as you are prime dps target.

    What we need is a droppable aoe or more dots(pref. with dispel protection) A idea is to add a glyph that makes eq instant and removes knockback so you can acutally get some damage out.

    Like I said, our maingroup doesnt even consider running shaman atm as a class, altho resto's are still good in rbg.

  9. #9
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Elemental got some help defensively, but it's just not enough.

    Enhance may get replaced for WW monks.

  10. #10
    Ele is getting indirectly buffed with other classes nerfed, but we still won't be great.

    I am perfectly fine with this though, I like the uphill climb.

  11. #11
    This is about RBG's and not PvP in general and certainly not about 2's or 3's
    I still think Elemental needs some love/QoL changes, but not because they are weak in RBG's.

    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    Purge : A dk does a better job (range)
    DK's have a finite amount of purges where as elemental doesn't (barring going oom). It also means they aren't using Howling Blast. Elemental can purge 2 buffs instead of 1 as well (although its getting nerfed in 5.2).

    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    Low cd interupt: its a kick at best 3 sec shorter then other kicks, not that good.
    It's a ranged interrupt, whereas most others aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    Cleavedamage: there is none. Cl doesnt jump at all in rbg, because everyone is mobile, aka ooming low damage.
    There are plenty of maps where CL gets used as much if not more than LB; choke points, flags, cart spawns are just a few examples. Its pretty rare that CL doesn't hit at least 3 people. I'll admit that that some of it is "meter padding" since it can just as likely hit pets as players, but this also means we have a 7 stack fulmination ready to unload on a kill target at any given time.

    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    Cc that doesnt break on damage: Ill give you that but I'll take a spammable cc over that horrible hex anyday.
    Hex has it's pros and cons. Personally I don't know why they kept the 45 second CD on hex this expansion, but i agree it should not have a cooldown. I'd still rather have hex than polymorph in an RBG.

    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    CC that is curse: is not a pro in rbg more classes can decurse then dispell.
    Wrong. 4 classes can dispel magic (all healers + shadow priest), where as only 3 can decurse. Hex is amazing for CCing mages/resto shaman/resto druids and forcing a trinket knowing their pally/MW/priest healers can't dispel it, where as any magic CC could be.

    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    Thunderstorm: isnt used. On ab, you cant risk going to the edge(restodrood knocking off, bad positioning), on eots there is rocks around the middle. mass gripping + solarbeam + ring. 10 times better.
    If you think that the only use for thunderstorm is knocking people off cliffs then you are grossly underestimating the spell. Separating healers, knocking flag carriers in a bad position, peals for your healer, knocking people off flags, knocking people out of LoS, ranging overextending melee from their heals, and interrupting Aura Mastery effects are just a few uses of TS. I hardly ever use TS to try and knock people off the center of EoTS or off LM; mainly because 1) people aren't stupid enough to put themselves in a position to get knocked off cliffs in RBGs and 2) even if they were, you put yourself in a bad position by running in there to TS.

    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    Totems: the only ones that matter are capicator and tremor. Occiasnoly a grounding on a chaosbolt.
    Yeah WW for FCs or for novas/pet novas isn't good. Or Stormlash on large engagements isn't good. Or Magma totem to defend flags isn't good. Or 10% reduced fire/frost/nature damage + a heal isn't good. Or earthbind/earthgrab isn't good for helping your healers kite or slowing people off your FC.......

    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    offheals: where? 20k healing surges.. And as ele your are not healing you are there for damage, shouldnt heal at all.
    Because your healers are never CCd right? HS heals for a descent amount if you have clearcasting up. Our job isn't to spam heals, but not dropping some while your healers are in a pinch is just poor play. We also have HTT or AG for large skirmishes. A Rogue/DK/Hunter/Mage/Lock/Warrior will never be able to spot heal in a pinch.

    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    Amazing burst w acedance: not not really. 1 cs and 8 sec is gone not to mention the fact you usually cant cast at all as you are prime dps target.
    If you pop ascendance while CS is off CD and a mage is around, then you deserve to get locked out imo. If you are always the kill target then your team is at a HUGE advantage. 1) You can still purge/windsear while being focused. 2) If they are tunneling you then they aren't tunneling your healers, leaving them more time for heals/CC 3) If most melee overextend, then its their death sentence: Thunderstorm + root then target swap the melee for an easy kill while they out-ranged their heals.

    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    What we need is a droppable aoe or more dots(pref. with dispel protection) A idea is to add a glyph that makes eq instant and removes knockback so you can acutally get some damage out.
    You say that you can't use CL because you can't get it to hit more than 1 person, but then ask for a droppable AoE? I'm not following your logic. I agree EQ needs an overhaul, but not because RBG's

    Personally I'd take DD burst over DoT any day (which is what we have with CL). I agree with giving elemental some dispel protection of Flame Shock, but its an insignificant factor in RBGs since Spriests/locks bring it for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by paror View Post
    Like I said, our maingroup doesnt even consider running shaman atm as a class, altho resto's are still good in rbg.
    That very well might be the case for your RBG comp, but it isn't indicative to every comp. Elemental can do just fine in a range or DoT heavy team. If you only look at the cons a class/spec brings then you would have a hard time filling any team. Elementals largest con in PvP is their survivability/trainability, which is largely negated by peals from your teammates (which should be in abundance in an RBG). I'm not saying Elemental is the OMGSUPERAMAZINGOP spec, just that it's viable in RBG's with the right comp.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 04:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Elemental got some help defensively, but it's just not enough.

    Enhance may get replaced for WW monks.
    Everything is going to get replaced by WW and Rogues if they release the patch as is.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitond View Post
    This is about RBG's and not PvP in general and certainly not about 2's or 3's
    I still think Elemental needs some love/QoL changes, but not because they are weak in RBG's.


    DK's have a finite amount of purges where as elemental doesn't (barring going oom). It also means they aren't using Howling Blast. Elemental can purge 2 buffs instead of 1 as well (although its getting nerfed in 5.2).


    It's a ranged interrupt, whereas most others aren't.


    There are plenty of maps where CL gets used as much if not more than LB; choke points, flags, cart spawns are just a few examples. Its pretty rare that CL doesn't hit at least 3 people. I'll admit that that some of it is "meter padding" since it can just as likely hit pets as players, but this also means we have a 7 stack fulmination ready to unload on a kill target at any given time.


    Hex has it's pros and cons. Personally I don't know why they kept the 45 second CD on hex this expansion, but i agree it should not have a cooldown. I'd still rather have hex than polymorph in an RBG.


    Wrong. 4 classes can dispel magic (all healers + shadow priest), where as only 3 can decurse. Hex is amazing for CCing mages/resto shaman/resto druids and forcing a trinket knowing their pally/MW/priest healers can't dispel it, where as any magic CC could be.


    If you think that the only use for thunderstorm is knocking people off cliffs then you are grossly underestimating the spell. Separating healers, knocking flag carriers in a bad position, peals for your healer, knocking people off flags, knocking people out of LoS, ranging overextending melee from their heals, and interrupting Aura Mastery effects are just a few uses of TS. I hardly ever use TS to try and knock people off the center of EoTS or off LM; mainly because 1) people aren't stupid enough to put themselves in a position to get knocked off cliffs in RBGs and 2) even if they were, you put yourself in a bad position by running in there to TS.


    Yeah WW for FCs or for novas/pet novas isn't good. Or Stormlash on large engagements isn't good. Or Magma totem to defend flags isn't good. Or 10% reduced fire/frost/nature damage + a heal isn't good. Or earthbind/earthgrab isn't good for helping your healers kite or slowing people off your FC.......


    Because your healers are never CCd right? HS heals for a descent amount if you have clearcasting up. Our job isn't to spam heals, but not dropping some while your healers are in a pinch is just poor play. We also have HTT or AG for large skirmishes. A Rogue/DK/Hunter/Mage/Lock/Warrior will never be able to spot heal in a pinch.


    If you pop ascendance while CS is off CD and a mage is around, then you deserve to get locked out imo. If you are always the kill target then your team is at a HUGE advantage. 1) You can still purge/windsear while being focused. 2) If they are tunneling you then they aren't tunneling your healers, leaving them more time for heals/CC 3) If most melee overextend, then its their death sentence: Thunderstorm + root then target swap the melee for an easy kill while they out-ranged their heals.


    You say that you can't use CL because you can't get it to hit more than 1 person, but then ask for a droppable AoE? I'm not following your logic. I agree EQ needs an overhaul, but not because RBG's

    Personally I'd take DD burst over DoT any day (which is what we have with CL). I agree with giving elemental some dispel protection of Flame Shock, but its an insignificant factor in RBGs since Spriests/locks bring it for you.


    That very well might be the case for your RBG comp, but it isn't indicative to every comp. Elemental can do just fine in a range or DoT heavy team. If you only look at the cons a class/spec brings then you would have a hard time filling any team. Elementals largest con in PvP is their survivability/trainability, which is largely negated by peals from your teammates (which should be in abundance in an RBG). I'm not saying Elemental is the OMGSUPERAMAZINGOP spec, just that it's viable in RBG's with the right comp.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 04:52 AM ----------



    Everything is going to get replaced by WW and Rogues if they release the patch as is.
    On all you said, just no. You severly lack xp in rbg thats for sure. Just no. I'll explain.

    * The only target you will purge is the nuke target. the nuke target is the one the dk can connect on aka his purge is better then ours. when we purge we do 0 damage.
    * CL hitting 3 targets makes you go oom, CL hitting 3 targets is rare at best at 2300+ rbg play.
    * All other interupts last longer. Not many melee's are being run in rbg above 2200 except a tank and dk.(no highrated team has a rogue) so almostall interupts you face are also ranged.

    * Hex, shoudlnt be cast on targets that will receive damage anyway so spammable cc > hex
    * 4 classes can dispell yes, Check again vs specs. you will get the point, offensive damage specs decursing keeps healer dispells from being used.
    * You are never in melee range as caster to ts, thats bad positioning wich gets you globalled as we have no defensives. Ts is only used as manaregen and the ocsianoal interupt on let'ssay a flag cap or to peel when being gripped.

    *You are not using healingstream glyph as a ele in rbg, you dont face many mages so freedom totem not being used much in groupfights. stormlash damage is not that great in pvp.
    * You are not there to heal, you are there for damage, offhealing is nice with cd's like healing tide but casting heals is a waste in rbg. If your healers cant keep up it means something is going wrong.

    *You cant check 10 people's cd's(spelllock/interupts) you will get locked when you pop acdensance as you stand out graphic wise immiadtly when you pop it. and again there is no melee in highrated rbg. Only a dk and a fc.

    You should check highrated teams, they all run something along the lines of dk/boomkin2x/spriest/desto most of that is aoe pressure(inc dots) not only DD.
    So ele is not viable at all above 2400+ rating. Our main team is prolly one of the highest legit rated teams in eu, they never face ele's and when they do when they are boosting(people like me with shit class) or playing alts, its a guearnteed win.

    To give you an example of damage: ele damageoutput, not died in the whole rbg match ~10mil damage comming in last place. boomkin ~25mil damage comming in first thats the damage difference there as a ele vs boomkin or dk .even destro can put out high numbers if played correctly.

    And enhance, you dont even see enhance in 2k rating rbg's they bring nothing you would ever want over another class.

    So we need a little more yes, it starts with not every aoe being hard cast.
    Last edited by paror; 2013-01-22 at 01:48 PM.

  13. #13
    These are my favourite threads to read. So much drama xD

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    You forgot low damage.
    /sign... but what about the low damage?

    sorry couldnt resist

  15. #15
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    You already are... Enh damage is awesome if you know how to play. Same with ele.

  16. #16
    Field Marshal Adimaru's Avatar
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    People are funny on these treads. Try proving to people that you are better then the class you are playing

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Buxton McGraff View Post
    You already are... Enh damage is awesome if you know how to play. Same with ele.
    Yes I agree Enhancement has decent damage during ascendance but if you compare it to the hurt a warrior, feral or frost DK can put on you it is not even close to awesome.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buxton McGraff View Post
    You already are... Enh damage is awesome if you know how to play. Same with ele.
    You really need to try some of the top dog specs and come back. Having the possibility to pull dps is not the same things as doing it when needed. Enhance pressure low outside ascendance compared to lets say a warrior or dk.

  19. #19
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregz21 View Post
    Hi, guys

    Do you think DPS shamans will be better in 5.2 in PVP? Everyone expects the patch to be flooded with monks and rogues, how do you think enhancement / elemental does against these 2 chasses?
    Played some wargames on the ptre and ele is crap vs monks and vs rogues. They can both tunnel you 24/7 and make your life miserable, and both do sick damage.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by zenga View Post
    Played some wargames on the ptre and ele is crap vs monks and vs rogues. They can both tunnel you 24/7 and make your life miserable, and both do sick damage.
    A bit like S5? Not talking about Elemental but rather those other 2 Classes.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

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