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  1. #21
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    In cataclysm, the game-play was a little more interesting in this way. FoF charges needed some management. Il, FFB and DF required all a FoF charges.
    But the remove of Deep Freeze's damage, the switch to BF-FFB without FoF and the reduced proc rate to have more control have change this aspect.

    I think the change to FFB was good but the remove of DF wasn't.
    In PTR 5.2, it seem that they want FoF generation to come more from Proc. It's a good things to game-play but not enough alone.
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  2. #22
    We need water jet, I don't know how anyone could enjoy more passive effects added. It completely removes what made frost awesome: On-demand burst.

  3. #23
    How about giving the mages an option between water jet and the live pet freeze. Either give the pet both abilities or make it so you can glyph for one over the other. I raid as frost for the burst and control of buffs (lack of rng). I understand that nether tempest is the highest single target bomb choice but being able to know when my next BF proc is going to be every time is worth it to me. As is forcing FoF procs with well timed freezes and orb use (fights with more than 1 mob). I honestly don't want frost to turn into an easier version of fire, fishing for a heating up(random FoF procs) without the benefit of free combustion damage.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Sw1tch View Post
    We need water jet, I don't know how anyone could enjoy more passive effects added. It completely removes what made frost awesome: On-demand burst.
    I dunno Sw1tch... I would need some convincing of this.

    Sure, petnova definitely contributed to Frost's ability for 'on demand burst' in pretty much all contexts (pvp, pve, etc etc), but does its removal completely remove Frost's ability to burst? I'm not sure. I don't think so.

    Frost still has orb, coupled with the guaranteed FFB off of a frost bomb (a synergy that, imho, is waaaay to OP in the first place), still allows frost to burst, pretty hard too.

    Sure, maybe it cant burst super hard back to back anymore with tons of orb FoFs followed by nova FoFs, but still, at maximum, the removal of nova FoF just reduces the total frost burst by 2 ILs (since really thats the max you could get with it anyway, in contrast to orb FoFs which could machine gun in).


    Imho, if we put the hullabaloo aside for a sec, I think the thing that is really p!ssing frostitutes right now is the 'gameplay' loss, i.e. the concept of 'shatter combo-ing' a boss was a 'fun' aspect of frost (and i agree) and what frosties are really lamenting is the loss of that gameplay. I think this is especially true since they have already buffed the FoF generation %ages of the other spells to compensate for the loss of FoF from nova.
    Basically, people are pissed coz of the nerf to 'fun'. And I agree.

    But then i turn around and look at something like fire. Compared to Frost, fire REALLY has nothing going on. I mean try playing fire with less crit and the glaring imbalance (in terms of 'fun factor') just becomes obvious. In fire, if you don't crit it really is just fireball spam. I dont even want to comment on the snoozefest that is live Arcane (but at-least arcane is getting ptr love).

    So the REAL question in my mind is, with such a massive gap that already exists between frost and the other specs as far as "stuff that's going on", is the removal of the "lets shatter the boss" going to have that much of an impact on gameplay? Does frost have enough 'other things' going on in the spec for it to be ok with this gameplay loss?

    Im not sure. Im leaning towards the idea that 'shatter combo-ing a boss' is too core of an idea to let go for frost. If they want to nerf its fun, they should pick something else and allow frost to still shatter bosses.

    Either way, lets see. Obviously things are still changing.

  5. #25
    Eh, you're speaking as if Frost should lose its spec identity and only unique strength because fire's situation is worse. On fights like Elegon (killing charges), spirtbinder (adds in the other world), Spirit Kings (arrows, skulls that follow people), Vizier (converts), Tsulong (adds), etc. frost is awesome to have. You can time Frost Bomb and Freeze to instant send out insane amounts of damage.

    We need to keep that. It's crucial to gameplay, QoL, and spec identity.

    What will we do on those style fights without Freeze/Water Jet? Time our Frost Bomb correctly? Great, there's 1/3 of our original on-demand burst.

    I understand you don't like the WE. But you have to understand that Frost's MoP gameplay was designed around it. Without the WE, the level of how compelling our playstyle is, is about zero. They would need to completely redesign frost (which they wont do in an expansion)
    Last edited by Sw1tch; 2013-01-26 at 12:47 AM.

  6. #26
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sw1tch View Post
    Eh, you're speaking as if Frost should lose its spec identity and only unique strength because fire's situation is worse. On fights like Elegon (killing charges), spirtbinder (adds in the other world), Spirit Kings (arrows, skulls that follow people), Vizier (converts), Tsulong (adds), etc. frost is awesome to have. You can time Frost Bomb and Freeze to instant send out insane amounts of damage.

    We need to keep that. It's crucial to gameplay, QoL, and spec identity.

    What will we do on those style fights without Freeze/Water Jet? Time our Frost Bomb correctly? Great, there's 1/3 of our original on-demand burst.
    I'm not quite sure why you think frost has such a good spec identity to begin with. Frost could use a huge amount of changes to actually fix it.

    Frost is at the moment not much more than use procs and stuff on cd. Frost needs a complete redesign and if it starts with changes to the water elemental all the better.

    I may be completely wrong but it seems to me people have been suggesting arcane is going to get its burst back with the change to 4 stacks which means frosts burst isn't going to be a symbol of spec identity, it will just be another example of mage homogenisation.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-26 at 11:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    Imho, if we put the hullabaloo aside for a sec, I think the thing that is really p!ssing frostitutes right now is the 'gameplay' loss, i.e. the concept of 'shatter combo-ing' a boss was a 'fun' aspect of frost (and i agree) and what frosties are really lamenting is the loss of that gameplay. I think this is especially true since they have already buffed the FoF generation %ages of the other spells to compensate for the loss of FoF from nova.
    Basically, people are pissed coz of the nerf to 'fun'. And I agree.
    When was frost able to shatter a boss in recent times? A shatter combo is about deep freeze and a short fast burst. I don't think we've lost the ability to shatter bosses as much as we've never had the ability.

    Frost needs a completely different basis for pve. There was a suggestion for a chill mechanic so that you built up stacks that stunned the boss and while I disagree with the stun maybe this is something that would suit frost pve much more while still keeping the "frosty" feel of the spec.
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  7. #27
    Eh, players have consistently underestimated Frost since it became PvE viable (Cata--kind of).

    I've had more experience with it then virtually every other mage in a PvE setting since Cata came out. It is unrivaled with regard to on-demand burst. Arcane can do it, but by doing so you can severely hurt your long term DPS. (I.E. 6 stack spamming adds on Tsulong will hurt you later.)

    That is frost PvE's identity. I love on elegon when I kill the charge *before it even moves*, and one of my guildmates says over vent "Where the hell did the blue charge go?"

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Sw1tch View Post
    Eh, players have consistently underestimated Frost since it became PvE viable (Cata--kind of).

    I've had more experience with it then virtually every other mage in a PvE setting since Cata came out. It is unrivaled with regard to on-demand burst. Arcane can do it, but by doing so you can severely hurt your long term DPS. (I.E. 6 stack spamming adds on Tsulong will hurt you later.)

    That is frost PvE's identity. I love on elegon when I kill the charge *before it even moves*, and one of my guildmates says over vent "Where the hell did the blue charge go?"
    Arcane is now only a 4 stack for max dps and WOL says a lot different for frost. Also, knowing when the charges come and having Missiles ready makes very quick work of the charge with no mana usage.

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