Would you transfer to a server where ilvl on gear in 10 and 25 man were not the same?

[chocobo606]

Okay, if you do 10 mans and you clear it all and it's just as difficult as 25 man, more or less, but the ilvl is higher in 25 mans... I guess my question is... why the hell would I care? so the people in 25 man have a higher ilvl than my guild in a 10 man, yet I can still effectively clear 10 mans... I don't see why I would care? Unless I was doing 10 mans and we couldn't clear the content, and we needed 25man ilvl stuff to do it, which isn't the case. So it doesn't matter, does it? except to feel like you're amazing because you have a higher ilvl than someone else in a 10man, which isn't much different than bragging about having a mount someone else doesn't have.

a higher ilvl in 25 man isn't going to make more people transfer from 10 mans to 25s, unless 10 man content is made much easier.. in which case, it STILL might not change their minds.

[Ziktus]

You really missed the whole point...

So what is the whole point?

This will simply not work. The moment there is slightly better gear available somewhere, you can expect a shitstorm from the community complaining about how they feel forced to do whatever they need to do to get it. You already have the gear you need to effectively clear 25-man raids so does it even matter? The people who truly love 25-man raiding will do it regardless of the item level the loot has.

I feel sad for people that are obsessed with item levels.

[l4808]

So what is the whole point?

This will simply not work. The moment there is slightly better gear available somewhere, you can expect a shitstorm from the community complaining about how they feel forced to do whatever they need to do to get it. The people who truly love 25-man raiding will do it regardless of the item level the loot has.

yeah, a shitstorm from this community. That's why I believe making separate servers where dual lockout is enabled would be the way to go. The point is that even if you think one thing is more fun than the other, that enough is not what will decide if you want to put in the effort to do that thing.

I am a 10 man raider myself, because I don't want to put the extra effort which a 25 man raiding group requires. Thus I'd be fine with knowing that, should I ever put in extra effort, there'd be a reward.

To put your previous statement a bit "on the edge". Someone who really wants to play World of Warcraft, won't necessarily do it if they feel like the game is not in a state that they are happy with. But that does not change the fact that they would really want to play the game.

[kivipää]

What a worthless poll. How about all the people who would not transfer for a multitude of reasons unrelated to such a detail? How many people would care enough to transfer if they weren't transferring already for some other reason? Not many. Making it free does jack shit to change this. Your poll is ridiculously skewed, and as such it's results are garbage.

[Wildtree]

I believe the question is extremely hypothetical. I would be very surprised if Blizzard could pull that thing of, from the technical perspective seen.
Asia is different for the entire network hub. The database is accordingly. For EU and NA it's total other ballgame. Hell, thinking a bit, we aren't even compatible within the different zone networks. We cannot freely move from zone to zone. But let me not go that far away. I believe to handle such, Blizzard would need 2 different databases within one and the same network. Plus they would need to be able to communicate with each other.....
Player X moves to Asia model (I use that term for ease of words now) realm, nothing happens with their gear.
Player Y moves back from Asia Model to regular model, gear needs to be stripped from it's extra ilevel, to be back in line with all others.

All in all, it's a horrible idea, for which I doubt will be any technical solution without the need more financial investment, than the actual profitable return would be.
I put the idea in the same category as the request for a pure old school vanilla realm.. Not gonna happen.
Waste of time getting all fired up about it.

[Ziktus]

yeah, a shitstorm from this community. That's why I believe making separate servers where dual lockout is enabled would be the way to go. The point is that even if you think one thing is more fun than the other, that enough is not what will decide if you want to put in the effort to do that thing.

I am a 10 man raider myself, because I don't want to put the extra effort which a 25 man raiding group requires. Thus I'd be fine with knowing that, should I ever put in extra effort, there'd be a reward.

To put your previous statement a bit "on the edge". Someone who really wants to play World of Warcraft, won't necessarily do it if they feel like the game is not in a state that they are happy with. But that does not change the fact that they would really want to play the game.

I guess that's a personal thing then. I'm the kind of person that thinks when one thing is more fun than the other I'm willing to put in some extra effort into the one I like more.

[l4808]

I believe the question is extremely hypothetical. I would be very surprised if Blizzard could pull that thing of, from the technical perspective seen.
Asia is different for the entire network hub. The database is accordingly. For EU and NA it's total other ballgame. Hell, thinking a bit, we aren't even compatible within the different zone networks. We cannot freely move from zone to zone. But let me not go that far away. I believe to handle such, Blizzard would need 2 different databases within one and the same network. Plus they would need to be able to communicate with each other.....
Player X moves to Asia model (I use that term for ease of words now) realm, nothing happens with their gear.
Player Y moves back from Asia Model to regular model, gear needs to be stripped from it's extra ilevel, to be back in line with all others.

All in all, it's a horrible idea, for which I doubt will be any technical solution without the need more financial investment, than the actual profitable return would be.
I put the idea in the same category as the request for a pure old school vanilla realm.. Not gonna happen.
Waste of time getting all fired up about it.

An idea is not defined as horrible because of the technical challenges it involves. And comparing it with pure old school vanilla realms, is quite ridiculous, when these realms is standard in Asia. It happened there, only reason for it not to happen is like you said, technical challenges, and all the 10 man players who will start complaining about realms that they're not gonna play on anyways. If you would want to stay on a normal server, then you'd do so.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 01:40 PM ----------

I guess that's a personal thing then. I'm the kind of person that thinks when one thing is more fun than the other I'm willing to put in some extra effort into the one I like more.

yes it is personal, but we can all see back to what happened when they scrapped dual lockouts. extreme drops in 25 man guilds. It's personal, but it's the case for very very many folks.

[Briga]

if they made 25s give better gear than 10s the whole community will be in for a massive screw up as they feel forced to run 25s.

My server has a low pop on Horde side that cannot field a 25 man guild. Alliance side while more numerous doesn't have much in the way of 25s either.

The minute higher ilevel appears on 25 man gear people will feel they MUST run it, so the community will flock to the high pop servers, and 10 man guilds will start to be destroyed as we return to a "only 25s" Wrath style of raiding.

I'd rather Blizz left it alone.

[det]

Who would transfer because of ilv? Shouldn't fun in an encounter with your friends count higher? Especially since every few month there is new gear and it resets every x-pac.

Seriously..how much do you care today that ICC 10 and 25 had different ilvs?

[Briga]

Who would transfer because of ilv? Shouldn't fun in an encounter with your friends count higher? Especially since every few month there is new gear and it resets every x-pac.

Seriously..how much do you care today that ICC 10 and 25 had different ilvs?

So why does 25 man need to have a higher reward? Shouldn't fun in an encounter with your friends count?

My problem with the higher ilevel in 25s was it scrapped a lot of guilds. Sure some of you had good stable 25 man guilds in that time, but for me I hopped from one to another for ages in Wrath because every time a guild went down to 10 man the people who remained lost key members to another 25 man guild who wanted to to get better/more gear.

In an MMO which is all about gear increasing power the moment you offer greater reward to a certain format it becomes the only one that matters.

[Anjerith]

Sure, I'd love to play on a server that gets to wait a few additional months after content is released on the standard server due to balancing and additional art requirements (since 10m would, of course, require different coloration). Oh and let's not forget that they would have to retune the bosses so that the 10 man versions were *substantially* easier due to the lower gear reward.


Anything I missed? I mean other than them spending money on new servers when people whine and complain about their servers being dead, or the development time just to START planning out this change? It isn't just a check box in scripts guys...


While 25 man has been my cup of tea for years, the change to equalize them was a great one. It really was ridiculous that 10 man dropped inferior gear when, on a per player basis, that size raid requires far more personal responsibility than a 25. I would take a really good 10 man player over a good 25 man player any day, for example, they by and large know mechanics better, and know how to fulfill multiple roles during an encounter. Most 25 man players have their role, and they play it until they are so sick of it that they either quit, make an alt (because they refuse to change their ret paladin into a tank or healer. It's usually some form of Paladin bleating) or some other useless thing.

[velde046]

1) You are missing the point. The point is not to get better gear than you're getting now. The point is to restore the difference. Knowing there's a difference would be a lift for 25 mans.

Yes, there is a difference, you have 2.5 times more people in a 25 man raid. Luckily there's 3 times more loot than in 10 mans so it is overcompensated, no need for more....

What's so wrong with accepting the fact that you, as a casual gamer, should not be able to keep up with the more dedicated players? I'm just like you, and I am fine with that. That's why I want you to ask yourself that. For us to keep up with someone, those must "wait" on us. So why should be keep up with them? The gear from 10 man serves the purposes they are supposed to serve. Making an entry into the next raid.

Well th eother way round would be the same valid question.... why do you think that people that have more time on their hands should deserve to be ahead? In fact it's not good for the game in a way, because competition is not fair then if you really look at it....

And if people raiding 10 mans feel obligated to raid 25 man to get higher ilvl gear so that the next raid tier will be easier to begin with, then Blizzard could consider putting restrictions on ilvl in 10 mans, just as they do in challenge modes.
a weapon in 25 man has ilvl 510, the same item in 10 man has 500. When entering a 25 man with the 510 weapon, it gets scaled down to the 10 man equivalent ilvl.

Are you serious? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt but I am pretty sure that most people wouldn't want to have their gear scaled... since they would rather have the 25m gear help them get through farming 10m faster.... I think it's fair enough as it is at the moment. And besides, what kind of incentive would 25m have if their gear got scaled by going to different raid size??? Like I said it is in fact already overcompensated by having 3x the amount of loot with 2.5x the amount of people. Hell, throw in a bag of goodies for the raidleader and it's done...

[Granyala]

Most people don't realize how the community works:

5% like 25mans and do everything they can to let their 25man raids live on.
10% really like 10man raiding because of a multitude of reasons.
85% just take the way which nets them the best Ilvl/effort ratio. They couldn't care less if there are 24 or 9 other people in the raid.

It's that 85% that need to be influenced, so 25man doesn't die out and I think thats where the OP is coming from.

[xindykawai]

as a casual raider, no i wont, i love 10m raiding and i really dislike 25m, so, even if it has better loot, i would still do 10m

[Spaceships]

I did not vote because I don't agree with any of the options. I would like to have separate lockouts for 10 and 25 and for them to have different iL but I would not server transfer for it.

[Iceleaf]

1) You are missing the point. The point is not to get better gear than you're getting now. The point is to restore the difference. Knowing there's a difference would be a lift for 25 mans.
2) They are already tuning them differently for Asian servers, where this system is in effect.
3) Yes, that is the case on normal realms, because there are very few 25 man raiding guilds. On servers where there are a lot, you won't have that same problem when someone in your team quits. There will always be players who have to (change of schedule), or want to, change a guild.
4) Asia has different lockouts and systems because they pug and don't guildrun? Please direct me to your sources for this. I've never heard about this.

1) Why there needs to be difference? Specially when you are on separate realm no one will see that "oh he does 25! He has RED loot instead of BLUE loot!!" or well, they do notice but why do they care. They do 25m too.
Also Like I said. If this was totally separate realm then only 25man guilds, or "wanna 25" would go there = everyone has 25m ilvl loot.
10m guilds wouldnt go there at all because theres NO benefit to them, it would just cost them money to transfer.
Theres no difference to what happens now (everyone (hc or normal) having "same" ilvl). Only time there would be, is when 25m goes to 10m "to wither" away. And by then its just mocking them.
It separates playerbase into two more different groups. Thats what games should avoid not make up more.

2) Sure. Ok.

3) But they wont get punished by it if they want to join another 25m later or get enough people to get back to 25m. If this was server, like you suggested, then

4) It was podcast/show where they talked about the recent changes like this. Sadly most of them are 2-3h long so I really cant be bothered to search it or the minute etc. But if you want to its either http://www.gamebreaker.tv/legendary-show-page/ or http://www.youtube.com/user/ZAMOfficial (or some blog post)
So (at least) according to them Asia/Korea has more pugs than stable guildruns because of their sub-system (encourages more "on off" playstyle not stable logging "every friday for 3h") or general playstyles.

[Mission]

Nup hate 25 mans, pain to manage, I prefer smaller raid sizes, becomes more personal and fun, in my viewing and build strong bonds with smaller groups then larger

[delus]

Seriously..how much do you care today that ICC 10 and 25 had different ilvs?

I'm still butthurt over it.

[l4808]

Most people don't realize how the community works:

5% like 25mans and do everything they can to let their 25man raids live on.
10% really like 10man raiding because of a multitude of reasons.
85% just take the way which nets them the best Ilvl/effort ratio. They couldn't care less if there are 24 or 9 other people in the raid.

It's that 85% that need to be influenced, so 25man doesn't die out and I think thats where the OP is coming from.

Spot on!