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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    As with most taxes, the rich pay more. The first part of your logic is flawed.

    There is a strong opinion in the US that many are hungry/sick due to their own actions. Plus, American are more upset with welfare abuse than pretty much anything else.
    In all fairness, it's not entirely wrong to say that, though. Some people are legitimately incapable of certain things, but ambition and willingness to work is a major problem. Welfare abuse angers people so greatly because of the ease with which it is done. I mean, we don't do anything CLOSE to enough to incentivize people to get off of welfare. My dad made mention a couple of weeks ago that my family would probably be better-off financially if he and my stepmom divorced, he took custody of my half-brothers, he got alimony from my stepmom, then he quit his job and lived off of welfare.

    Seriously, what is this ObamaPhone garbage? There is a tent in my town where people can literally go and get a free cellphone and minutes. Someone my dad knows said he knew a guy who was getting a new phone almost monthly from his son because his son would go get these phones, then sell them online after a month and get a new one. That's the kind of craziness that bothers people.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    The 'law' isn't really in effect yet.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient...dable_Care_Act

    That lists the timeline the laws provisions will be rolled out. Most of the money-saving stuff doesn't come into effect for a couple more years.

    2014 is when a bunch of the cost-saving stuff takes effect.
    And should I start to save money in 2014, I will eat my words and apologize. However logic would dictate something else.

    Let's say you own a store that sells a certain product. Up until now you've worked on an open marked. Supply and demand set your prices. When demand went up so did your prices. That's the market. Now let's say the Feds come along and TELL everyone they HAVE to buy the product you sell, sending demand through the roof. Logic would dictate that you would raise prices. After all people HAVE to buy your product so what's the incentive to lower your prices?

    Do you understand my logic now?

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by orissa View Post
    Biological evolution has nothing to do with being selfish to the point of not helping your fellow man. On the contrary, evolution led us to being a social creature and we survived over the ages because we were altruistic and we helped the sick and hungry. Once they were no longer sick and hungry, they were again able to contribute and help the tribe survive.
    Except you could argue that unnecessary time and effort was put into helping many of those people. How is it beneficial to provide social services to uneducated, jobless people for free? Would it not be better to simply do away with them? I'm not saying I support these ideas, just that this idea that we're going to go with "survival of the fittest" while saying "help the unfit" seems to contradict itself.

    Yes, I agree that there is a benefit in being the social creatures we are, but some of these ideas do not support the advancement of society like people want. Wouldn't it be better to simply start shooting and removing those who disagree with these sentiments if they are seen as slowing the progress of society, be that the religious right, the political right, or the uneducated/jobless?

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    And should I start to save money in 2014, I will eat my words and apologize. However logic would dictate something else.

    Let's say you own a store that sells a certain product. Up until now you've worked on an open marked. Supply and demand set your prices. When demand went up so did your prices. That's the market. Now let's say the Feds come along and TELL everyone they HAVE to buy the product you sell, sending demand through the roof. Logic would dictate that you would raise prices. After all people HAVE to buy your product so what's the incentive to lower your prices?

    Do you understand my logic now?
    That's my issue with health care in America. It shouldn't be run with profit in mind.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Noomz View Post
    When you think a persons life is not worth caring for just because a person lives on welfare, you set no value in human life.
    You can keep spitting out silly little speaking-points. However the day someone making MORE than me "deserves" to be on a national system that I, making less, have to pay for is the day all reason goes out the door.

    Now come up with an intelligent point to contradict my, very real, example. How is it right that I, making less, should have to pay for my health care and the care of someone collecting more than me?

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilfrier View Post
    In all fairness, it's not entirely wrong to say that, though. Some people are legitimately incapable of certain things, but ambition and willingness to work is a major problem. Welfare abuse angers people so greatly because of the ease with which it is done. I mean, we don't do anything CLOSE to enough to incentivize people to get off of welfare. My dad made mention a couple of weeks ago that my family would probably be better-off financially if he and my stepmom divorced, he took custody of my half-brothers, he got alimony from my stepmom, then he quit his job and lived off of welfare.
    Hey, cool, Welfare abuse is a staggeringly low number and any attempts at weeding out the small amount of abuse in the system is going to cost more money than it saves, just like drug testing everyone on welfare. I know facts aren't really your thing, but still..
    Seriously, what is this ObamaPhone garbage? There is a tent in my town where people can literally go and get a free cellphone and minutes. Someone my dad knows said he knew a guy who was getting a new phone almost monthly from his son because his son would go get these phones, then sell them online after a month and get a new one. That's the kind of craziness that bothers people.
    http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/cellphone.asp

    Lifeline originated in '84, under Reagan, Was expanded in '96 under Clinton, and started giving out cell phones in '08 under Bush Jr. It is also paid for by fees on telecommunications providers, and not through taxpayer monies. But again, facts disprove your biased arguments every. single. time.

  7. #187
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    And should I start to save money in 2014, I will eat my words and apologize. However logic would dictate something else.

    Let's say you own a store that sells a certain product. Up until now you've worked on an open marked. Supply and demand set your prices. When demand went up so did your prices. That's the market. Now let's say the Feds come along and TELL everyone they HAVE to buy the product you sell, sending demand through the roof. Logic would dictate that you would raise prices. After all people HAVE to buy your product so what's the incentive to lower your prices?

    Do you understand my logic now?
    No.

    The AHCA doesn't remove the market. It just expands it. There's still competition for those customers, both the old AND the new. If you price your product too high, a competitor can undercut your pricing and you'll bleed customers. The only way you can jack prices to increase profits as you claim is if it's a product that people need, AND you're the sole provider.

    And the entire point of going with the AHCA was that it was NOT a single-payer system.

    People have to buy A product. Not YOUR product. It's the same reason food doesn't cost $300 a meal. People HAVE to buy it, because if they don't eat, they die. But there's a lot of competition in that market, so prices stay low.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    WHO's ranking of health care systems, with the US at #37, well below a whole lot of nations with socialized health care.
    That ranking is 67.5% based on how well you socialize your medicine. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-health-care-/.

    They had these weights for their rankings:

    health level was 25%
    responsiveness 12.5%
    financial fairness 25%
    health distribution 25%
    responsiveness distribution 12.5%

    We ranked 15th using those standards and then they weighted those rankings based on where they thought our country should be based on economic status and other things. That's how we ended up at 37th. According to snopes we actually ranked first in the world in responsiveness, but it wasn't weighted very high.

    I'm not saying that this makes our healthcare system awesome. But when you rank us 67.5% based on how socialized our mostly non socialized medical system is and we end up ranked 15th and then you penalize us for ranking 15th because of our economic status it's really not surprising we ended with 37th overall.

  9. #189
    Elemental Lord Noomz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilfrier View Post
    In all fairness, it's not entirely wrong to say that, though. Some people are legitimately incapable of certain things, but ambition and willingness to work is a major problem. Welfare abuse angers people so greatly because of the ease with which it is done. I mean, we don't do anything CLOSE to enough to incentivize people to get off of welfare. My dad made mention a couple of weeks ago that my family would probably be better-off financially if he and my stepmom divorced, he took custody of my half-brothers, he got alimony from my stepmom, then he quit his job and lived off of welfare.

    Seriously, what is this ObamaPhone garbage? There is a tent in my town where people can literally go and get a free cellphone and minutes. Someone my dad knows said he knew a guy who was getting a new phone almost monthly from his son because his son would go get these phones, then sell them online after a month and get a new one. That's the kind of craziness that bothers people.
    All the while, people who genuinely need welfare and that really need the safety net often fall through it and have a lot of trouble getting the help they need, because the majority things that a few bad apples has spoiled the bunch.

    The generalizing that is done about people on welfare is disgusting and dangerous. And the money that may be undeserved for some there, is nothing compared to how much money is wasted and misshandled by those that control your country and have most of the money. But they aren't easy to attack. They aren't easy to slander and bully, because they have all the power. It's much easier to target the people who already have nothing, because no-one fights for them and they have no power.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by geewhiz80 View Post
    I've never heard of anyone making that much on disability, and I don't agree with your cousin collecting that much. You can live well off of far less than that.
    He scammed the military. He enlisted in the Army with a pre-existing condition that he knew about and couldn't afford to treat. He hid it from the doctors. After a year or so in he started "acting" like it had just happened, and blamed the Army for it. He ended up settling on a 75k/year "disability" pension for the rest of his life.

    So, yeah, just the sort of person you'd expect would demand handouts like health-care paid by other people.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    And should I start to save money in 2014, I will eat my words and apologize. However logic would dictate something else.

    Let's say you own a store that sells a certain product. Up until now you've worked on an open marked. Supply and demand set your prices. When demand went up so did your prices. That's the market. Now let's say the Feds come along and TELL everyone they HAVE to buy the product you sell, sending demand through the roof. Logic would dictate that you would raise prices. After all people HAVE to buy your product so what's the incentive to lower your prices?

    Do you understand my logic now?
    First, I think the ACA is stupid and the Dems embracing the GOP 'healthcare fix' is a betrayal of their voters. However, when the feds come along and tell everyone they must participate in the market, and that certain companies who aren't actually providing any real value can no longer make obscene profits on death and suffering, I don't really have a problem with that. It also allows smaller groups to compete over state borders and it allows states who provide better care and benefits than the federal requirements to opt out, iirc.

    Second, the prices weren't rising because of supply and demand, but because of shady backroom deals and inflation of profits by insurance companies.

    Third, I don't recall Obama saying health insurance prices would go down, I remember him stating that the exponential rise we have been witnessing would stop.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    He scammed the military. He enlisted in the Army with a pre-existing condition that he knew about and couldn't afford to treat. He hid it from the doctors. After a year or so in he started "acting" like it had just happened, and blamed the Army for it. He ended up settling on a 75k/year "disability" pension for the rest of his life.

    So, yeah, just the sort of person you'd expect would demand handouts like health-care paid by other people.
    Sounds like to me he should be in prison for fraud.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    You could, oh I don't know, start with Wikipedia and enjoy their sources and studies, as well as their linked articles? But they won't talk about Death Panels and huge waits for life-saving procedures, so you probably don't want to listen to it. You could compare costs for the same procedures, dollar for dollar, between CA or UK and the US, and see that the prices in the US are artificially increased due to the intervention of the Insurance Companies as well as the fact that ER's can't turn people away if they have life-threatening problems, and the government already pays for that care.

    You and I are literally already spending as much in Taxes for socialized medicine in the US as most other countries, and then if we actually want treatment we (and our employers) have to spend a boatload more on health insurance. You could check that out as well, but again, no death panels so you probably wont like it.
    And that is where you lose me. You:

    A. Want me to only research the benefits.
    B. Want to ignore what was a legitimate request for you to give me a means to learn.

    So congratulations. Your Internet demeanor has now put me into a state of mind that your argument is invalid. I was legitimately trying to attempt to coerce you into showing me information to change my mind. You instead elected to use your reply to make a terrible assumption about my stance (which is fairly neutral on this as a whole). I wanted some actual information once you told me to educate myself. Rather than trying to help someone educate himself as you so say I should, you decide to be condescending and hurt not only your argument but the argument of those who hold a similar stance as you, because I've now been shown that those with this stance are narrow-minded (because you decided to only say "research the good things"), stubborn (because you refused my request for information), and rude (because of your decision to make a false assumption and attack me when I attempted to get help from you).

    So, for all your ranting in this post, you have done yourself and those like you (in stance) a great disservice. I was honestly wanting information and to educate myself as you said, but you decided to meet that response with this rude, demeaning response. This kind of attitude is WHY things go nowhere--people love to call other people wrong, but never offer support or reasoning.

  14. #194
    Elemental Lord Noomz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    You can keep spitting out silly little speaking-points. However the day someone making MORE than me "deserves" to be on a national system that I, making less, have to pay for is the day all reason goes out the door.

    Now come up with an intelligent point to contradict my, very real, example. How is it right that I, making less, should have to pay for my health care and the care of someone collecting more than me?
    That's why those with more should contribute more. I don't think it works like that in the US though.

    It's likely that those with plenty more money than you spend it on private doctors. That's usually how it goes here in Sweden.

    Even if someone has more money, their life is still worth as much as yours. But that's just my personal view.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilfrier View Post
    And that is where you lose me. You:

    A. Want me to only research the benefits.
    B. Want to ignore what was a legitimate request for you to give me a means to learn.

    So congratulations. Your Internet demeanor has now put me into a state of mind that your argument is invalid. I was legitimately trying to attempt to coerce you into showing me information to change my mind. You instead elected to use your reply to make a terrible assumption about my stance (which is fairly neutral on this as a whole). I wanted some actual information once you told me to educate myself. Rather than trying to help someone educate himself as you so say I should, you decide to be condescending and hurt not only your argument but the argument of those who hold a similar stance as you, because I've now been shown that those with this stance are narrow-minded (because you decided to only say "research the good things"), stubborn (because you refused my request for information), and rude (because of your decision to make a false assumption and attack me when I attempted to get help from you).

    So, for all your ranting in this post, you have done yourself and those like you (in stance) a great disservice. I was honestly wanting information and to educate myself as you said, but you decided to meet that response with this rude, demeaning response. This kind of attitude is WHY things go nowhere--people love to call other people wrong, but never offer support or reasoning.
    Protip: You can't force someone to learn, to throw away their prejudices. You can only challenge their assumptions and let them make up their own mind.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post

    It absolutely is "skipping lines". People with better insurance get priority treatment, and thus get taken in ahead of the uninsured, unless we're talking emergency treatment. One of the reasons lines are somewhat longer in countries with socialized health care is that the ER will see you. Even if you have a cold. If you don't have a family doctor, and need a note to get sick leave pay, you have to go to the ER. Because you're totally not in critical need of treatment, you get bumped down every time someone with a more serious issue comes in, because that's how triage works. You might wait 6-8 hours to get that note. It sucks, that's why you should get a family doctor (which isn't hard nor does it cost you a dime; people just don't bother).

    If you actually need treatment, you get it. I've gone in for the aforementioned head issue (atypical migraine, FWIW), and was seeing a doctor within 20 minutes. Another time, I'd partially amputated my right index by dropping a 300lb rock on it. I had to wait an hour and a half before I saw the surgeon to get stitched back together, but that was because a three-car pileup came in right after me, and they had people in critical condition, one guy had a sucking chest wound. "People who might die in the next hour if untreated" get priority over a finger, even if I am holding it together in a towel. Because, again, triage. I got pain meds and was happy to wait.

    You're only waiting if there's something more serious going on. And Canadian hospitals can't afford to overstaff, because they're on a budget and can't just jack up prices to pay for more staff; they get funding based on the care they need to provide.
    Sorry, I might be misreading, but from what you posted in this section, you made it seem like...1) people with better insurance get priority, and 2) ER's in the States won't see you.

    First, as a healthcare working in the states, I can assure you that you will always be seen in the ER. EMTALA dictates that anyone who presents to the desk must be seen by a physician. If after the initial examination nothing is found, the doctor could refuse to treat the person, but that's not even realistically an option. Simply because if someone came in with a cold, was examined by the MD and he told the person to go to the clinic in the morning, but then that person had a heart attack and died on the way home, that MD would most likely be sued for malpractice and even possibly lose their license. Everyone will be seen in any ER in the states, and they will have to wait due to triage. So, your example of someone needing a MD note for work applies to the United States as well.

    Secondly, the "people with better insurance get priority treatment" is a mostly false statement. Most facilities work on appointment times alone. Nurses and MD's most often have no idea what your insurance is, because that's not information they need. HIPAA privacy practices more or less dictate who needs to see what information on patients. Registration, billing, scheduling will have knowledge of a patient's insurance, but they won't be able to see a medical history. MDs and Nurses can see medical history, but insurance information is not typically information they see. Again, in the ER, they see them as they come in and what triage level they are given.

    There are instances where people with better insurance will have better care available to them. Not all facilities will accept all insurance types, or even specific plans for insurance carriers. If you are stuck with some crap plan that isn't accepted many places, you're basically stuck seeing a limited amount of providers (with the exception of emergency care). If you have a plan that pays like 90% of your costs and is from a good carrier, the chances of better providers accepting that insurance type is better, since they have a certain guarantee of being paid the majority of their fees.

    Again, this is from my personal experience as a healthcare worker. I work in a ER as support staff. I handle insurance information and medical records, as well as assist nursing and MDs with various tasks in the ER (I work at a medium sized hospital with pretty minimal staffing).

  17. #197
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    That ranking is 67.5% based on how well you socialize your medicine. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-health-care-/.

    They had these weights for their rankings:

    health level was 25%
    responsiveness 12.5%
    financial fairness 25%
    health distribution 25%
    responsiveness distribution 12.5%
    None of those are exclusively "socialized". Financial fairness, for instance, was ranked badly for the US because prices were totally out of whack with costs elsewhere. Health distribution, similarly, recognizes when certain people can't get treatment and recognizes that as a "bad thing", and that has nothing to do with socialization, just the premise that health is a right (which it is, according to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 25).

    That said, I know there are complaints about the WHO study, which is why it wasn't the sole source I provided.

    We ranked 15th using those standards and then they weighted those rankings based on where they thought our country should be based on economic status and other things. That's how we ended up at 37th. According to snopes we actually ranked first in the world in responsiveness, but it wasn't weighted very high.
    And my point would stand even on that measure; you're paying almost twice as much as anyone else in the world for health care, and you're ranking 15th? That's grossly inefficient; you aren't getting what you pay for.

    I'm not trying to claim US health care is terrible, just that it's not a premium product that's worth what you're paying for it, relative to other nations.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    He scammed the military. He enlisted in the Army with a pre-existing condition that he knew about and couldn't afford to treat. He hid it from the doctors. After a year or so in he started "acting" like it had just happened, and blamed the Army for it. He ended up settling on a 75k/year "disability" pension for the rest of his life.

    So, yeah, just the sort of person you'd expect would demand handouts like health-care paid by other people.
    Is the guy that manages to use the system at fault, or is the system that lends itself to abuse in need of fixing?

    That's what laws usually do, deterr people from doing illegal things because there is too much risk. With proper control and insight equals less scamming and abuse of the system.

    They've toughened up the welfare system here in Sweden to an almost ridiculous level. Every month, you have to show social services that you've used the money you get, for the things you said you needed them for. And they need to see that you haven't been getting any money from anywhere else.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    What about my cousin that's collecting 75k a year for life. He's getting more than most people I know and he deserves to have everyone else pay for his health care?
    You have to tell us a little bit more about the situation. What is his disability? Does a lot of that 75k go for essential medicine for example? If so would you rather he lived in agony for the rest of his life just because he's taking your tax money? What if you were put into his situation? But yeah you have to give some more info before we can form an opinion on this.

  20. #200
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    I am one of those "conservative" types, not fundamentalist, far right by any stretch, but I definitely lean more right than left on most issues unless it involves individual liberties (gay marriage being the key example). It is not that I oppose socialized healthcare, its that I see what all the idiots on both sides of the aisle in D.C. do and the mess they constantly make out of everything and it terrifies me to think that they could have a hand in my health care.

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