MMO-Champion
As a U.S. recipient of gov't healthcare, i can say that your not missing much.Originally Posted by Spectral
I would support gov't healthcare only if the people getting it had to meet certain specific requirments.
1. Reckless behavior that results in you getting hurt will be your own cost. I.E. Motorcycling with no PPE, skateboarding with no PPE...etc. If people are going to help you pay for your healthcare costs, then the individual will have to show responsiblity in their actions.
2. If your obese, your doctor will put you on a exersize routine and diet. As long as the person makes adequate progress (3-6 lBS) a month than they will continue to recieve gov't funded healthcare, for every month that they do not meet satisfactory progress, they will have to foot 20% of the overall treatment bills resulting from their obesity.
3. There will be a 20$ co-pay per visit, this will keep people from habitually going to the ER everytime they stub their toe.
4. If you smoke...100% related costs to you....If you drink or use recreational drugs...100% on you.
The problem that myself and many other americans have with a single payer system is that there would be many people unwilling to subject themselves to requirments such as these to recievegov't healthcare.
With communial responcibility comes individual accountability.
-
2013-01-21, 07:53 PM #381Pandaren Monk
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
- Location
- US
- Posts
- 1,801
-
2013-01-21, 08:00 PM #382Pandaren Monk
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- 123 Nowhere, Imagination land USA
- Posts
- 1,990
hmmm i was just looking at debt clock.org for debt around the world and i wondered why America was blinking
A fine summarization of the communityYou're a fine example of how gamer communities have become infested with endlessly whining and bitching, arrogant, opinionated, unreasonable, all the way immature, completely delusional, tendentially psychotic, insulting individuals one really doesn't want to be linked with. And playing with you guys is certainly no fun at all. I don't know where this kind of folks spawns from. Must be a nest somewhere ...
-
2013-01-21, 08:07 PM #383Bloodsail Admiral
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
- Location
- Antwerp City
- Posts
- 1,151
Dear god that thing is scary, huge numbers and painfull math xS Originally Posted by Tierbook
discussion about toilet etiquette
Originally Posted by That Feel
-
2013-01-21, 08:08 PM #384Stood in the Fire
- Join Date
- Apr 2012
- Posts
- 475
http://archive.sciencewatch.com/dr/cou/2008/08aug20CLI/ Originally Posted by Dezerte
But I'll say that I don't know how much this indicates we spend on medical research. We do probably spend more than other countries through the NIH (which got defunded a bit recently I think) and we support pharmaceutical research for orphan drugs through the orphan drug act. However I've heard that a large reason our costs are much higher than other countries is because of unnecessary treatments.
-
2013-01-21, 08:15 PM #385The Lightbringer
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Location
- Sweden
- Posts
- 3,662
That link only gives us an idea on how much medicine research is done, which unsurprisingly the US scores first on. Originally Posted by Annapolis
Orlong however was claiming the US is the sole inventor of medicine.To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
I’m not that arrogant.
The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.
-
2013-01-21, 08:18 PM #386Pit Lord
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
- Location
- Oklahoma
- Posts
- 2,467
Because if you're too poor to aford healthcare, it's your fault for not working hard enough! It's YOUR fault you didn't go to college and get a degree in underwater basket weaving to land you that 100K a year job! It's YOUR fault you took a bad job. Stop leeching off MY hard earned money! I worked for years to get to this desk job where I can set on my ass all day holding meetings while making in a day what you make in a month. STOP BEING LAZY, THAT'S WHY.
/end rant
/sarcasm mode off"Do not only practice your art, but force yourself into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine." -- Ludwig Van Beethoven
-
2013-01-21, 08:55 PM #387Banned
- Join Date
- Nov 2010
- Posts
- 6,446
Oddly enough all that medical research is done at... wait for it.. PUBLIC EXPENSE. That's always the case with fundamental research. The internet was developed for example at PUBLIC EXPENSE. Big pharma r and d is more about marketing and testing than it is about fundamental research.
-
2013-01-21, 08:57 PM #388Pandaren Monk
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
- Location
- US
- Posts
- 1,801
Class envy is delicious Originally Posted by theredviola
-
2013-01-21, 09:30 PM #389Bloodsail Admiral
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Posts
- 1,114
What really bothers me when it comes to the American debate about Socialized Medicine, is the apparent missinformation of part of the public.
A socialized healthcare system and a private insure system ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. Socialized healthcare is paid out of a fund that is fueled by something called Social Security. The governament legistlates how much of that goes into unemployement benefits, public housing etc and healthcare. Social security is not a % of your income, but a fixed summ. True the summ goes up and down depending on which tax bracket you are going into, but the variation is rarely more then 100%. Meaning the highest earner will pay double that the minimum income taxpayer, but not really much more. Let's face if someone on minimum wage is paying 400 euros (for exemple, I'm using European numbers here as I am more familiar with taxes and such here), someone who is earning the top tax brackets can pay 800 without considering it being a major blow to his income.
The funny thing is tho that unemployement benefits awarded to you are proportional to your previous income. Like 70% of your last paycheck was. So while you do pay more, you do recieve more when you need it.
Going back to healthcare. When you have a socialized healthcare system, the governament is normally not allowed to fund healthcare from income tax, as there is already an existing tax for funding healthcare. Altought while they often do funnel money around it is almost never healthcare but rather additional services, such as free ambulance transport for the elderly for regular health check ups, free preemptive care, subsidies for things like alternative theraphy etc. things that someone would not strictly consider healthcare, just care in general. For exemple...here in Spain everyone who is classed as suffering of certain limitations on his autonomy (disabled or elderly) are given something that looks like a necklace with a button on it. If the button is pressed it alerts the medical services that the person will be needing an ambulance at his home and it will start emiting a loud sound alert so if the person is in a public space people around him know that he needs medical assistance. Of course this is a horribly expensive service and it is paid for by social security. And it's up for debate if it should be included or not, at least in my mind.
Now going back to the private care. Private hospitals still exist and are available to anyone who can afford it. But due to the fact that the private health service is in direct competition with the public one (which is "free" as they will not deny you any type of care you might need no matter if you are an illegal migrant or you are not a taxpayer) the private care providers need to keep their services at a reasonable price, otherwise they are dead. Thus usually people who do contract private insurance do so for the extra service, immediate personalized care, hotel room quality hospital bedrooms which is still more affordable then in the US. And even so, if they need any service for which they do not want to pay extra (like a full check up or a flu shot or an expensive operation not covered by their insurer) they can still at any time go to their nearest hospital.
Further more. The story of not being allowed to pick your own doctor is another myth. Everyone is free to chose their family doctor as long as it is a person holding a proper license, he maybe a doctor from the governament health service or even a private practice (private practices who are paid by the governament, but are paid the same amount as a governament doctor would). You can also choose your own specialists or hospital as long as he/she is available and it is within the district/region where you are hospitalized.
So if you really look into it, no matter what you chose private or public care in a welfare state with a free market and public healthcare you end up having more choices available to you, 100% security that you will recieve care and all that will still be cheap or atleast cheaper for everyone.
A nother issue when it comes to healthcare is that the general wealth of a nation has a great impact on the quality of the care available. Also socialized care systems tend to yield greater national results the poorer a country is. They might be less healthy then richer nations, but without said system being available to them they would be much much worse off.
-
2013-01-21, 09:33 PM #390Mechagnome
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
- Posts
- 590
Heres why socialized medicine sucks--- because someone has to pay taxes for these things to happen. However, for the US, the champions of non-socialized healthcare, there are much more rediculous things we spend money on. I have a friend in Canada who makes just as much money as I do, pay just as much in taxes, but while my taxes go to bomb other countries and pay for food stamps, his taxes get him socialized healthcare.
-
2013-01-21, 09:34 PM #391The Lightbringer
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
- Location
- Canadia
- Posts
- 3,373
There's no class envy in saying that some people don't deserve what they are making, and some other people deserve a lot more. Originally Posted by supertony51
The night is dark and full of terrors...
-
2013-01-21, 09:34 PM #392Over 9000!
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Posts
- 9,666
Do you know what's really frightening? If you didn't put in that "/sarcasm mode off" element I could've believed that was 100% serious from somebody. =/ Originally Posted by theredviola
"Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."
Originally Posted by BenBos
-
2013-01-21, 09:35 PM #393The Lightbringer
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
- Location
- Canadia
- Posts
- 3,373
We have food stamps in Canada too. And we have armed forces. Originally Posted by Hiricine
The night is dark and full of terrors...
-
2013-01-21, 09:36 PM #394Brewmaster
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Posts
- 1,277
People have to pay taxes on just about everything. You say you don't like it? Join the fucking club, but it's just how it goes. We pay for highways, cops, public schools, firemen. All of those things are necessary. These things are important, but so is not having sick people, especially those who can't do anything about it. Originally Posted by Hiricine
---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 09:36 PM ----------
Canada, nor any other country in the world, comes remotely close to what the U.S. spends on the military. It is above and beyond any country in the world. You cannot even compare the cost. Originally Posted by namelessone
-
2013-01-21, 09:37 PM #395Over 9000!
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Posts
- 9,666
This reminds me of one of my favorite Discworld passages I'll paraphrase from memory: Originally Posted by namelessone
The cult leader then says to the crowd: "Maybe in our new society, we would only allow showy coaches for the deserving!"
The crowd then mentally divided all the people into the deserving, and the undeserving... and placed themselves on the appropriate side."Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."
Originally Posted by BenBos
-
2013-01-21, 09:38 PM #396Titan
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Posts
- 11,864
Almost all medical research is done by Americans (measured in research spending). Originally Posted by Tommo
-
2013-01-21, 09:39 PM #397Over 9000!
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Posts
- 9,666
Oh, they can do something about it... they can grab a gun and rob a drug store or somebody's house to pay for their medical needs. Or they can just say "F*#^ it!" and just grab a gun and go on a final spree before their death. Originally Posted by cherb
"Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."
Originally Posted by BenBos
-
2013-01-21, 09:42 PM #398Pandaren Monk
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
- Location
- US
- Posts
- 1,801
Who gets to make that determination? Originally Posted by namelessone
-
2013-01-21, 09:54 PM #399Over 9000!
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Posts
- 9,666
Obviously those who believe they're part of the deserving, of course! :P Originally Posted by supertony51
"Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."
Originally Posted by BenBos
-
2013-01-21, 09:54 PM #400Stood in the Fire
- Join Date
- Apr 2012
- Posts
- 475
It may be true in your country that the top tax payers only pay double of what the bottom tax payers pay, but that's not the case in the United States. Originally Posted by Mihalik
http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pa...ome-taxes.html
http://taxfoundation.org/article/sum...ome-tax-data-0
The top 10% of earners pay 70.5% of the total income tax for the United States and the top 50% pay 97.7% of total income. Even if somebody making 500k a year paid only 25% income tax that would be 125k. Somebody making even 125k a year will not be paying half of their income in taxes. So the wealthy definitely put forth much more than twice the amount of others.
I agree that socialized systems and private systems aren't mutually exclusive, but this debate to me is about how much money you put into socialized medicine.
Reply With Quote
