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  1. #441
    Probably pointed out already by others in a similar situation...I have "socialized healthcare" and I pay less in taxes, both income and sales tax, than most Americans do today.
    "Bah-weep-graaaaagnah wheep nini bong!"
    On Parole from Retard Rehabilitation since October 22, 2014.
    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    Tradewind isn't helping.

  2. #442
    Honestly, the biggest point any American could make about their flavor of freedom is that, under the Constitution, America went from some backwater colony to the world's superpower in under 200 years. It accomplished that before FDR, before the New Deal, before there was massive federal social programs.

    Since then, the United States has moved in a different direction, to add regulations, federal bureaucracy, and corrupted bloat to government. Social Security, medicare, medicaid, Obamacare, all serve to make it more expensive to do business in the United States. And that, in the end, makes the country go downhill.

    What's annoying about all of this is when leftists think they can blame Bush or the republicans for a bad economy, a bad economy is very important. But when presented with the fact that social programs hurt the economy, suddenly the economy isn't an important issue, social welfare becomes a more important issue. Which is paradoxical because social welfare would improve with a better economy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 09:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Probably pointed out already by others in a similar situation...I have "socialized healthcare" and I pay less in taxes, both income and sales tax, than most Americans do today.
    Many countries, like those in Europe, effectively have their military budget subsidized by the United States.

    Take for example Mali. Obama is going to provide free military service to the French. He will

    1. Ferry french troops to North Africa for free.
    2. Supply free drones, free surveillance aircraft, free refueling of french jets

    Of course, these things aren't really free. The design, production, expertise, and implementation of such free military items was paid for by US taxpayers.

    A better arrangement would be for France to pay for these services. If they would pay for it, maybe the extra money could be used to help improve health care in the US. Instead, you have French people who happily accept the freebies from the US, and then mock the US for having worse social programs.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    Honestly, the biggest point any American could make about their flavor of freedom is that, under the Constitution, America went from some backwater colony to the world's superpower in under 200 years. It accomplished that before FDR, before the New Deal, before there was massive federal social programs.
    No. The US became a superpower because all the other countries that had a strong manufacturing base had those facilities damaged, if not utterly destroyed, in two world wars. Meanwhile the US Interstate Highway System is a huge source of our success and founded in the '50s.
    Since then, the United States has moved in a different direction, to add regulations, federal bureaucracy, and corrupted bloat to government. Social Security, medicare, medicaid, Obamacare, all serve to make it more expensive to do business in the United States. And that, in the end, makes the country go downhill.

    What's annoying about all of this is when leftists think they can blame Bush or the republicans for a bad economy, a bad economy is very important. But when presented with the fact that social programs hurt the economy, suddenly the economy isn't an important issue, social welfare becomes a more important issue. Which is paradoxical because social welfare would improve with a better economy.
    /yawn. A government that allows its citizens to become serfs of monopolistic corporate interests isn't representing its citizens, but rather corporations.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Probably pointed out already by others in a similar situation...I have "socialized healthcare" and I pay less in taxes, both income and sales tax, than most Americans do today.
    The average income tax for Americans is about 10% I think. You pay less than that?

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    Many countries, like those in Europe, effectively have their military budget subsidized by the United States.

    Take for example Mali. Obama is going to provide free military service to the French. He will

    1. Ferry french troops to North Africa for free.
    2. Supply free drones, free surveillance aircraft, free refueling of french jets

    Of course, these things aren't really free. The design, production, expertise, and implementation of such free military items was paid for by US taxpayers.

    A better arrangement would be for France to pay for these services. If they would pay for it, maybe the extra money could be used to help improve health care in the US. Instead, you have French people who happily accept the freebies from the US, and then mock the US for having worse social programs.
    I'm pretty sure France is also getting the same deal from the UK, Russia and from Canada and have been for a few days now.
    "Bah-weep-graaaaagnah wheep nini bong!"
    On Parole from Retard Rehabilitation since October 22, 2014.
    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    Tradewind isn't helping.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    The average income tax for Americans is about 10% I think. You pay less than that?
    Average household income is ~50,000 a year and that is in the 25% tax rate, although you most likely won't pay more than 20%.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    The average income tax for Americans is about 10% I think. You pay less than that?
    Are you accounting for state taxes in some situations and sales tax? The income tax rates are probably lower up front, though the brackets for low income in the US rise much earlier as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    The average income tax for Americans is about 10% I think. You pay less than that?
    Are you accounting for state taxes in some situations and sales tax? The income tax rates are probably lower up front, though the brackets for low income in the US rise much earlier as well. Not that I'm low income, my flat federal tax rate is a shade over 24% and then a 5% sales tax on the "non-essentials." That's with no real out of pocket additional expenses such as healthcare or private insurance as that's covered 100% by my employer. I also claim a boat load of that income tax back every year through my retirement contributions and other deductions.
    Last edited by Tradewind; 2013-01-22 at 05:43 AM.
    "Bah-weep-graaaaagnah wheep nini bong!"
    On Parole from Retard Rehabilitation since October 22, 2014.
    Quote Originally Posted by Helden View Post
    Tradewind isn't helping.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Average household income is ~50,000 a year and that is in the 25% tax rate, although you most likely won't pay more than 20%.
    No. Average effective tax rate is about 11.81% for all of those filing to the IRS http://taxfoundation.org/blog/tax-ra...tional-average.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 12:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Are you accounting for state taxes in some situations and sales tax? The income tax rates are probably lower up front, though the brackets for low income in the US rise much earlier as well.




    Are you accounting for state taxes in some situations and sales tax? The income tax rates are probably lower up front, though the brackets for low income in the US rise much earlier as well. Not that I'm low income, my flat federal tax rate is a shade over 24% and then a 5% sales tax on the "non-essentials." That's with no real out of pocket additional expenses such as healthcare or private insurance as that's covered 100% by my employer. I also claim a boat load of that income tax back every year through my retirement contributions and other deductions.
    I didn't add in state or sales tax. Both differ by state. My state has no sales tax except for on places that prepare your food for you. We don't have income tax either except on interest and dividends. We do obviously have property tax though.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    No. Average effective tax rate is about 11.81% for all of those filing to the IRS
    Using that source is kind of a joke, no?



    How about marginal tax rates for 2012?

    Marginal tax rates for 2012
    Marginal Tax Rate[8] Single Married Filing Jointly or Qualified Widow(er) Married Filing Separately Head of Household
    10% $0 – $8,700 $0 – $17,400 $0 – $8,700 $0 – $12,400
    15% $8,701 – $35,350 $17,401 – $70,700 $8,701 – $35,350 $12,401 – $47,350
    25% $35,351 – $85,650 $70,701 – $142,700 $35,351 – $71,350 $47,351 – $122,300
    28% $85,651 – $178,650 $142,701 – $217,450 $71,351 – $108,725 $122,301 – $198,050
    33% $178,651 – $388,350 $217,451 – $388,350 $108,726 – $194,175 $198,051 – $388,350
    35% $388,351+ $388,351+ $194,176+ $388,351+
    That is really ugly. Anyway, as I said, single person making the average salary in teh US is listed at a rate of 25%, but won't pay more than 20%.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_..._United_States
    Last edited by obdigore; 2013-01-22 at 06:19 AM.

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Using that source is kind of a joke, no?
    You say my source is a joke when they get their data from IRS statistics and then post a wikipedia link.

    Does MSN work? http://money.msn.com/tax-planning/wh...-real-tax-rate

    Or the specifically non-partisan tax policy center? http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=456

    The average effective federal income tax is about 11% it really isn't 20%. Why do you keep linking the base tax rates? nobody pays those rates. And the average is not 20% it is 11%

    Also here's an article from CNN: http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/18/news...rate/index.htm
    It is about Mitt Romney's rate just because that's when they were talking about effective tax rate in the media.

    If nearly half of Americans pay no effective tax then why is it surprising that the average effective tax rate is about 11%?
    Last edited by Annapolis; 2013-01-22 at 06:57 AM.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    You say my source is a joke when they get their data from IRS statistics and then post a wikipedia link.

    Does MSN work? http://money.msn.com/tax-planning/wh...-real-tax-rate

    Or the specifically non-partisan tax policy center? http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=456

    The average effective federal income tax is about 11% it really isn't 20%. Why do you keep linking the base tax rates? nobody pays those rates. And the average is not 20% it is 11%
    I find it ironic that you keep linking places that factor in people who are on welfare or who make minimum wage (who have all their federal tax refunded because they make so little) as statistics that we need to look at.

    Edit -> Your tax policy center also has the 'average federal tax rate' at over 17% in 2009, which is the last year listed. Not 11%.
    Last edited by obdigore; 2013-01-22 at 07:01 AM.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    I find it ironic that you keep linking places that factor in people who are on welfare or who make minimum wage (who have all their federal tax refunded because they make so little) as statistics that we need to look at.
    How is that ironic? Ironic would be not including people on social programs in a discussion comparing the social programs abroad to those of the United States.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    How is that ironic? Ironic would be not including people on social programs in a discussion comparing the social programs abroad to those of the United States.
    Because those numbers artificially deflate the actual tax burden upon the people paying federal income taxes.

    Edit -> None of those numbers include medicare or SS tax either, which are certainly taxes for social programs, no?
    Last edited by obdigore; 2013-01-22 at 07:08 AM.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Because those numbers artificially deflate the actual tax burden upon the people paying federal income taxes.

    Edit -> None of those numbers include medicare or SS tax either, which are certainly taxes for social programs, no?
    Ya those rates aren't in their calculations. Could be because that's confusing right now. They just increased one of those rates by a few percent. But it looks like if you add in SS and medicare you get up to about 16-17% average.

    Edit: actually the MSN article says they did calculate in the payroll taxes too.
    Last edited by Annapolis; 2013-01-22 at 07:30 AM.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    Ya those rates aren't in their calculations. Could be because that's confusing right now. They just increased one of those rates by a few percent. But it looks like if you add in SS and medicare you get up to about 16-17% average.
    Tax policy center already had the rate over 17% averaged for everyone (including people who 'pay' negative federal taxes) without SS or Medicare, from what I can see.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Tax policy center already had the rate over 17% averaged for everyone (including people who 'pay' negative federal taxes) without SS or Medicare, from what I can see.
    Ya but when you average their quintiles it doesn't add up. Plus if you look for effective tax rates on their website you come to http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=366 and it annoyingly doesn't give you an average effective tax rate but there's no way those numbers average up to 17% you know? Unless they add in the payroll or something.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    Honestly, the biggest point any American could make about their flavor of freedom is that, under the Constitution, America went from some backwater colony to the world's superpower in under 200 years. It accomplished that before FDR, before the New Deal, before there was massive federal social programs.
    Soviet Union too brought up the agrarian inefficient empire to be a superpower even though it was in another end of the spectrum.

    You can't really argue with the state of freedom either, with slavery and all. When in comparison to the rest of the world, the US has always had large inequality in both economical & social side + the US has really never had major social reforms. Today you can see it even more clearly with the global leaning more and more right-wing while trade unions are still the underdog in US politics.
    Last edited by Kasami; 2013-01-22 at 08:01 AM.

  18. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    They went for the sugar tax instead. Which makes more sense because sugar is generally the thing making people fat rather than... well... fat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    "standard of living" is a subjective term. A conservative might make low taxes, less government, and freedom the criteria to judge standard of living. A leftist might favor health care, not because they particularly like health care, but because they can spin the health care ranking to "prove" that countries with the highest stand of living are socialist.

    And then it comes down to both sides acting confident in their own subjective measures of standard of living, and both sides attempt to discredit the other sides methodology and criteria, no-one listening to each other, and lies being spewed everywhere. You know, politics.
    I was right.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    "standard of living" is a subjective term. A conservative might make low taxes, less government, and freedom the criteria to judge standard of living. A leftist might favor health care, not because they particularly like health care, but because they can spin the health care ranking to "prove" that countries with the highest stand of living are socialist.

    And then it comes down to both sides acting confident in their own subjective measures of standard of living, and both sides attempt to discredit the other sides methodology and criteria, no-one listening to each other, and lies being spewed everywhere. You know, politics.
    Wait a minute will you. Standard of living shows the quality of everyday life and individual's chances of movement in social environment, not the means the American politics offer to accomplish that.

    What a poor attempt of derailing from you.

  20. #460
    So.. What I see as a general argument against socialized health care is that people don't want to pay it with their tax money or because they feel that people should pay it by themselves. I see.. Okay I have just one simple question then. Why does the tax money of those who oppose death penalty go to fund it? Two different situations, same argument. I am not saying everyone that is against socialized health care support death penalty, but this is just an example of how this sort of thing already exists

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