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  1. #461
    Bloodsail Admiral Cjeska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draiman View Post
    So.. What I see as a general argument against socialized health care is that people don't want to pay it with their tax money or because they feel that people should pay it by themselves. I see.. Okay I have just one simple question then. Why does the tax money of those who oppose death penalty go to fund it? Two different situations, same argument. I am not saying everyone that is against socialized health care support death penalty, but this is just an example of how this sort of thing already exists
    A 2$ needle into someones arm is hardly comparable to the billions that healthcare costs.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Cjeska View Post
    A 2$ needle into someones arm is hardly comparable to the billions that healthcare costs.
    You have no idea what the death penalty costs in the US.

  3. #463
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    Wait a sec, there is no R&D done outside the US?

    The only country that spends more on medical/life science research per capita then my country is Switzerland, and thats both private and public investments accounted for, curtesy of IMF and the Worldbank. Pfizer is building a new research lab here, they already got one of their biggest manufactoring plants here, so that makes sense I guess. AstraZenica still got one of their bigger labs here and one of their biggest manufactoring plants. Medicine and Life science is a growing industry and has always been prioritized.

    R&d as a whole is similiar.

    % of GDP PPP as of 2011
    1. Israel
    2. South Korea
    3. Japan
    4. Sweden
    5. Finland
    6. USA

    Yes USA got +300 million people so it's obvious that there is more money and more people working with it but that doesn't fucking mean that no other countries are spending money on R&D and medical R&D. /facepalm.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's a reason those particular products are in the $1 bin. Because they won't sell at full price. It's not comparable to the pharma prices, because Canadians are getting the newest drugs at the lower rates, too. We're not buying the "Ernest Goes to Camp" of drugs.

    The actual difference is, Canada's buying at wholesale prices. Americans are paying the retail markup. It's like going in to buy a new car; Canada dickers with the car company to buy a fleet of cars, and gets a price that's about $300 over the cost-to-produce, since we're buying so many it still means hundreds of thousands in profits to the car company. Americans aren't buying in bulk, they're each going in and paying the +50% retail markup on the manufacturer suggested retail price of the vehicle, because they're not trying to negotiate anything, and the pharmacorps don't see any need to drop prices for a sale or two here or there.
    The college books example was probably better than DVD's. The point still stands, without the US as a primary market, Canada and Europe would have much fewer drugs because USA is used to recoup costs. Without the high prices in US it would not be profitable to develop these drugs.

    Just like it wouldn't be profitable to write college textbooks purely for the indian market (where they're sold at a fraction of the US price).

    The rest of the world is getting a free ride on the back of the United States. This is not anything controversial, it's been long known among industry professionals.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 12:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackmoves View Post
    Yes USA got +300 million people so it's obvious that there is more money and more people working with it but that doesn't fucking mean that no other countries are spending money on R&D and medical R&D. /facepalm.
    We're talking about biomedical/pharmacy R&D, not R&D in general.

  5. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    We're talking about biomedical/pharmacy R&D, not R&D in general.
    Yeah, Switzerland spends most per capita, Sweden comes in 2nd(as of 2012). No idea about the US, but I'd guess top 5. Medicine and life sciences is easily the market that gets most investments here.

    USA is easily the biggest if one counts the total amount of capital invested though.
    Last edited by Jackmoves; 2013-01-22 at 12:27 PM.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackmoves View Post
    Yeah, Switzerland spends most per capita, Sweden comes in 2nd(as of 2012). No idea about the US, but I'd guess top 5. Medicine and life sciences is easily the market that gets most investments here.
    Got a source? Not that it really matters though.

  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Got a source? Not that it really matters though.
    OECD.

    Only read swedish sources qouting their studies though.

    Like this one.
    Samtidigt som industrin har ett stort ekonomiskt värde i Sverige så har den en mycket stor betydelse också för patienter och för utvecklingen av hälso- och sjukvården i landet. Cirka 30 000 patienter per år ges nya läkemedel i form av kliniska försök. Vidare satsar läkemedelsindustrin mer än 15 miljarder kronor på forskning och utveckling i Sverige vilket kan jämföras med att staten satsar sammanlagt drygt 7 miljarder på medicinsk forskning. Enligt en OECD-studie ligger Sverige och Schweiz i topp i världen då ca en halvprocent av BNP utgörs av läkemedelsforskning.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  8. #468
    Bloodsail Admiral Cjeska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    You have no idea what the death penalty costs in the US.
    About 1 million dollars more than a regular murder case with a life sentence. The point is, people who oppose the death penalty usually don't do it because of the money. The costs are just one of the arguments. In Healthare however, the costs are the major argument against it. Everybody with some life experience can tell you, the more the government gets involved, the worse the product gets, the higher the costs rise and the more corruption you will see. It works that way all around the world in almost every aspect of daily life. Instead of forcing employers to pay for everyones healthcare, they should have found ways to make it more affordable (you might think that something like the "affordable care act" would do that, but it's just a bandaid with a misleading name and no actual solution). Spreading the stupidly high costs around doesn't fix it, it makes it worse.

  9. #469
    The Patient Velanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aftonflickan View Post
    I just had non-essential surgery in my chest (a procedure which took around 2 hours of operating) and it left me with a bill of around 15 USD... lol
    So tell me, why does socialized medicine suck again? This procedure would've cost around 6000 dollars if I had funded it privately....
    $15 plus all the money you pay into taxes for socialized medicine. Whereas it would cost me nothing with the money I pay into my private insurance.

    In the end, you pay for it either way. I prefer to pick my doctors, though.

  10. #470
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    You have no idea what the death penalty costs in the US.
    The greater part of the costs comes from the years upon years of appeals to ensure as much as possible that the person convicted is in fact guilty... and while the pragmatic part of me finds this just, if not overzealous, the humanitarian part of me questions why such scrutiny is not applied to high-profile cases not involving the death penalty, as if the supposition is that death penalty cases are the only ones subject to human error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackmoves View Post
    OECD.

    Only read swedish sources qouting their studies though.

    Like this one.
    If you present an alternate language on an English-speaking forum (which this is), it's polite to personally translate it in order to maintain its accuracy.
    “…the whole trouble lies here. In words, words. Each one of us has within him a whole world of things, each man of us his own special world. And how can we ever come to an understanding if I put in the words I utter the sense and value of things as I see them; while you who listen to me must inevitably translate them according to the conception of things each one of you has within himself. We think we understand each other, but we never really do.”

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Draiman View Post
    So.. What I see as a general argument against socialized health care is that people don't want to pay it with their tax money or because they feel that people should pay it by themselves. I see.. Okay I have just one simple question then. Why does the tax money of those who oppose death penalty go to fund it? Two different situations, same argument. I am not saying everyone that is against socialized health care support death penalty, but this is just an example of how this sort of thing already exists
    This is a weird argument that would lead to the conclusion that no one should ever have any opinion about fiscal policies whatsoever.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 09:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Velanis View Post
    $15 plus all the money you pay into taxes for socialized medicine. Whereas it would cost me nothing with the money I pay into my private insurance.
    So, the money he pays in taxes count, the money you pay for insurance doesn't.

    I don't get it.

  12. #472
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    On All Things Considered last week, there was a guy being interviewed that commented that before Medicare, Seniors spent approximately 12% of their monthly income/allowance on healthcare, whereas now they spend something like 20% (I don't remember if this number is correct, but it was certainly a lot more than 12%). Also currently, a human who was born today in the age of insurance, if medical costs remained constant their whole life, would spend over a million dollars on healthcare over the course of their life. Because healthcare costs don't remain constant, however, it's closer to two million.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 02:36 PM ----------

    The same guy who was interviewed on All Things Considered for the piece I referenced above also wrote this Atlantic cover article:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...ther/307617/3/

    The average insured American and the average uninsured American spend very similar amounts of their own money on health care each year—$654 and $583, respectively. But they spend wildly different amounts of other people’s money—$3,809 and $1,103, respectively. Sometimes the uninsured do not get highly beneficial treatments because they cannot afford them at today’s prices—something any reform must address. But likewise, insured patients often get only marginally beneficial (or even outright unnecessary) care at mind-boggling cost. If it’s true that the insurance system leads us to focus on only our direct share of costs—rather than the total cost to society—it’s not surprising that insured families and uninsured ones would make similar decisions as to how much of their own money to spend on care, but very different decisions on the total amount to consume.
    Let’s say you’re a 22-year-old single employee at my company today, starting out at a $30,000 annual salary. Let’s assume you’ll get married in six years, support two children for 20 years, retire at 65, and die at 80. Now let’s make a crazy assumption: insurance premiums, Medicare taxes and premiums, and out-of-pocket costs will grow no faster than your earnings—say, 3 percent a year. By the end of your working days, your annual salary will be up to $107,000. And over your lifetime, you and your employer together will have paid $1.77 million for your family’s health care. $1.77 million! And that’s only after assuming the taming of costs! In recent years, health-care costs have actually grown 2 to 3 percent faster than the economy. If that continues, your 22-year-old self is looking at an additional $2 million or so in expenses over your lifetime—roughly $4 million in total.
    Consider the oft-quoted “statistic” that emergency-room care is the most expensive form of treatment. Has anyone who believes this ever actually been to an emergency room? My sister is an emergency-medicine physician; unlike most other specialists, ER docs usually work on scheduled shifts and are paid fixed salaries that place them in the lower ranks of physician compensation. The doctors and other workers are hardly underemployed: typically, ERs are unbelievably crowded. They have access to the facilities and equipment of the entire hospital, but require very few dedicated resources of their own. They benefit from the group buying power of the entire institution. No expensive art decorates the walls, and the waiting rooms resemble train-station waiting areas. So what exactly makes an ER more expensive than other forms of treatment?

    Perhaps it’s the accounting. Since charity care, which is often performed in the ER, is one justification for hospitals’ protected place in law and regulation, it’s in hospitals’ interest to shift costs from overhead and other parts of the hospital to the ER, so that the costs of charity care—the public service that hospitals are providing—will appear to be high. Hospitals certainly lose money on their ERs; after all, many of their customers pay nothing. But to argue that ERs are costly compared with other treatment options, hospitals need to claim expenses well beyond the marginal (or incremental) cost of serving ER patients.
    Last edited by Reeve; 2013-01-22 at 02:40 PM.
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  13. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    If you present an alternate language on an English-speaking forum (which this is), it's polite to personally translate it in order to maintain its accuracy.
    Google translate yo!
    Nah I'm sorry. I think Diurdi understand Swedish, but here is a translation.


    While the industry has a high economic value in Sweden it is also of great importance to patients and the development of health services in the country. Approximately 30,000 patients per year are given new drugs through clinical trials. Furthermore, the pharmaceutical industry is investing more than 15 billion on research and development in Sweden, compared to the state that is investing around 7 billion on medical research. According to an OECD study, Sweden and Switzerland are in the top of the world whith about half a percent of the GDP being made up of pharmaceutical research.
    Medicine and pharmaceutical products is the 4th biggest export for Sweden, so it's pretty important for our economy.
    Last edited by Jackmoves; 2013-01-22 at 02:43 PM.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  14. #474
    Elemental Lord Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velanis View Post
    I prefer to pick my doctors, though.
    I suspect we are having a fundamental misunderstanding somewhere. Single-payer healthcare in no way prevents you from choosing your own doctor.

  15. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    I suspect we are having a fundamental misunderstanding somewhere. Single-payer healthcare in no way prevents you from choosing your own doctor.
    Didn't you hear, socialized medicine means The Party tells you what doctors you are allowed to see (the shitty ones), what hours you can see them at (1am-1:15am every 5th tuesday), and how much they can treat you (give you an asprin and send you home). And if you have a life-threatening condition you'll have to wait 5 years to see a doctor.
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  16. #476
    At the end of the day who would you prefer to give your money to

    The government which is non profit and if we didnt keep electing clowns could do a decent job

    Or some private insurance whos sole reason to exist is to make money off you and they dont make money off you if they have to keep paying up for your treatment

    I know socialised health care isnt perfect no system is but i liked being able to see a doctor without worrying if my insurer will deny my claim cause i didnt look at the small print and worry that i could lose my house cause of costs

    I grew up in England and the NHS saved my sisters life and it didnt cost my dad a thing except the taxes he pays

  17. #477
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    The average effective federal income tax is about 11% it really isn't 20%. Why do you keep linking the base tax rates? nobody pays those rates. And the average is not 20% it is 11%
    We keep linking them for the same reason people link the base tax rates for other nations, to show how much higher they are than the US. Here's a hint; a lot of people in those nations pay no tax, either. Or they reduce their gross income through various tax breaks to get into a lower bracket. Just like the US. You can't say "oh, the average salary in the US puts people in the 25% bracket, but if you average that out with the people paying nothing and factor in tax breaks, we only pay about 11%", not unless you factor in the same reductions for everyone else.

    Plus, the number of people in lower income brackets may be different; if the US has more people making so little they don't pay taxes, that lowers the average based not on tax rates, but on income inequality.

    Canada's tax rates, for instance, are slightly higher than the US, but not egregiously so. Plus, many Americans have to pay on top of this for health care, either via insurance or out of pocket, where Canadians have that covered by that taxation.

    The US isn't some low-tax haven, not across the board. Particularly as you need to bring in enough revenue to pay for that massive military spending.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Velanis View Post
    $15 plus all the money you pay into taxes for socialized medicine. Whereas it would cost me nothing with the money I pay into my private insurance.

    In the end, you pay for it either way. I prefer to pick my doctors, though.
    1. The healthcare "moneyjar" can be used to speculate and thus increasing the actual money in the jar.
    2. Because healthcare is bought in bulk you can get bigger discounts on things.
    3. In many places you can choose your doctor and they also do not have a waiting list.

    Like I said in another post already. Look at the Dutch healthcare system. It uses private healthinsurance companies and private hospitals. It is probably the closest to what Americans would like. Yet it is much cheaper the the American system at the moment while the care is very very good. And no waiting lists etc.
    Plus all those bonusses that you see in Sicko with the French lady, we have that here as well. If you Americans don't want that, they you don't have to do that. And here everybody still pays (in part) for their own healthcare, not somebody else.

    I think it is simply cheaper for American citizens to go for a system like this. It has all the benefits without much downsides. The right is happy because they do not pay for others and it is cheaper, the left is happy that everybody is insured and not denied help.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    First of all, I'm sorry to hear about your father's health.

    However you must consider that in the United States we can keep people alive who might otherwise have been let go in other countries. Treatments and costs for socialized medicine are dictated by government policy and not by demand. So your father's life support may not have been covered at all in another country because it might be deemed too expensive for the potential outcomes. In the United States much more is available, but it just comes out of pocket when your insurance company decides it wont' cover a treatment fully.

    I'm not trying to say this is directly applicable to your case and I'm sorry about the situation your family has been left in.
    Its comments like this that tell me Americans really have no fucking clue how things are actually run with "socialized" medicine and are just talking out of their ass trying to sound smart. I actually work in a Canadian hospital and I see patients EVERY day in ICU that are waaaay past their expiration date and have been on life support for literally months, even years because their families can't let go. As long as the family wants them around, the hospital will do whatever's in their power to keep them around. Hell I actually think its a bad thing wasting literally millions of dollars to keep someone on life support for years that won't make it back anyway but not covering life support because its too expensive is def not something that actually happens in Canada anyway.

  20. #480
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antelope591 View Post
    Its comments like this that tell me Americans really have no fucking clue how things are actually run with "socialized" medicine and are just talking out of their ass trying to sound smart. I actually work in a Canadian hospital and I see patients EVERY day in ICU that are waaaay past their expiration date and have been on life support for literally months, even years because their families can't let go. As long as the family wants them around, the hospital will do whatever's in their power to keep them around. Hell I actually think its a bad thing wasting literally millions of dollars to keep someone on life support for years that won't make it back anyway but not covering life support because its too expensive is def not something that actually happens in Canada anyway.
    But...but..Death Panels...and Communists
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

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