Page 3 of 25 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
5
13
... LastLast
  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    If I need surgery to keep me alive... I'm not going to give a damn who does it, so long as he's trained well and knows what they're doing. Also, private surgeons have waiting lists too, you know. It's not like I can call my doctor up tonight and get some surgery done in a few hours.
    In a completely privatized, unregulated system, a truly high bidder would be able to gain very quick access to care.

    I'm not saying this is optimal, just saying that it's the nature of markets. That doesn't exist in any modernized country and I don't think anyone seriously advocates for it.

  2. #42
    Elemental Lord Noomz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    In my head, where crazy happens.
    Posts
    8,204
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post

    You guys have a combined system that covers basic healthcare but provides better options if you can afford it, yeah? That's always seemed like the best of all worlds to me.
    Yepp. Everyone gets healthcare, absolutely everyone. Even immigrants that have yet to get citizenship get treatment if it's essential for their well-being or life-threatening.

    But as mentioned, for us the biggest problem is that the hospitals are understaffed and bit underfunded. You may have to wait weeks or months for non-essential healthcare or just to see a doctor. But when I went through cancer, I was taken care of in the span of a week, tests, surgery etc.
    Though when my appendix got inflamed, or whatever it's called, we had to fight to get an ambulance to take me. And when I arrived at the hospital I waited atleast well over an hour for them to care to me. But that's because they lack staff. It's not an attractive job to be a nurse at a hospital, it doesn't pay as good as it should.

    In private healthcare you get a higher pay, to my knowledge, so that's more attractive.

  3. #43
    A few quick points here.
    Cuba with it's poverty and the most effective and long lasting economic blockade in history has better neo-natal stats than washington DC delivered for a tiny fraction of the cost. clearly socalised healthcare fails.......
    Secondly if "socialised healthcare" or "socialised education" is wrong in some way then why even have government?
    For "socialised prisons" and "socialised warfare"?
    Why is it ok for the general population to pay for the goals of the rich but not ok to pay for stuff that everyone needs?
    All government programs are "socialised".
    the only question is....
    Which are the ones that actually benefit society as a whole?

    You can be damn sure the rest only benefit the rich.

    You can also be sure that the programs that benefit the rich will never be described as "socialised" or "liberal" in the media.
    why?
    because the media is owned and/or run by the rich.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Kujako View Post
    Case in point, Craig T Nelson declaring on national televisions "I've been on foodstamps and welfare, did anyone help me out? No."
    That's one of the most amazing clips I've ever seen. How in the world does someone hold that in their head? Yet another mark for not ever underestimating people's capacity for cognitive dissonance.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Aftonflickan View Post
    So tell me, why does socialized medicine suck again? This procedure would've cost around 6000 dollars if I had funded it privately....
    Because Taxes. Personally, as an American, I'd be fine with paying a little extra in taxes if it meant I didn't have to worry about going into debt over a major surgery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lizbeth View Post
    Someone had to pay for it.. Free stuff is only awesome for the one getting it. Isn't it obvious that those who had to paid for it complain and don't want it..
    Wouldn't we all pay for it and who wouldn't use it? Since it would be payed for through Taxes anyone that's working would fund it and anyone that visits a Doctor or takes Prescription Medication would make use of it. Rich, Poor, or Unemployed we would all make use of it.

  6. #46
    Fluffy Kitten
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    5,167
    Quote Originally Posted by Dedweight View Post
    Wouldn't we all pay for it and who wouldn't use it?
    Yes, we would all pay for it.

    People who wouldn't need it wouldn't use it. Hell, I still have clients who come in and refuse to claim EIC because they don't want to take the government dime and want to work for themselves.

  7. #47
    I dont want my lazy earned money to help improve my fellow mans quality of life.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuke1096 View Post
    Except that wouldnt happen in a Single Payer System. There would be only 1 insurer...the government. If a hospital or clinic decided not to accept that insurance "Assuming they would even be allowed to, they would likely legally have to", then they would have no customers and would go out of business.

    The main advantage of a Single Payer System is leverage.
    Having such a system run by the government is not such a great idea. Government run organizations are brutally inefficient and slow, cough USPS.

    The single payer system has been implemented in other countries and the results are less than impressive. Its all about implementation. In Taiwan, medical residency programs for OB/GYN and general physician have spots left un-filled because medical students are unwilling to enter into a specialty where they barely get paid (due to government budget cuts).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dedweight View Post
    Wouldn't we all pay for it and who wouldn't use it? Since it would be payed for through Taxes anyone that's working would fund it and anyone that visits a Doctor or takes Prescription Medication would make use of it. Rich, Poor, or Unemployed we would all make use of it.
    Not true. As with all welfare, in socialized medicine, the rich pay more in than they get out. Moreover, socialized medicine is going to have very basic coverage, significantly worse than what the current working middle class expects to get as a job perk. If you want more, either you or your employer is going to pay out of pocket, all the while paying increased taxes for a greater implementation of current 'Medicare/Medicaid'.

    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    If I need surgery to keep me alive... I'm not going to give a damn who does it, so long as he's trained well and knows what they're doing.
    Yeah... no.

    Different surgeons have different outcomes. Different level of training, different level of expertise determines whether or not they can charge more for their service. This is no different from any other industry.
    Last edited by yurano; 2013-01-21 at 02:11 AM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post

    Yeah... no.

    Different surgeons have different outcomes. Different level of training, different level of expertise determines whether or not they can charge more for their service. This is no different from any other industry.
    A good place where this is evident is state-run teaching hospitals as compared to private practice. At a teaching hospital a resident may be doing the surgery one of his first times under supervision. At a private practice you might be having your surgery done by a practitioner who has been doing your routine surgery for 40-50 years. Obviously residents need to be trained, but they are being trained largely at public hospitals and not in private practice.

  10. #50
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Århus
    Posts
    17,889
    Because with social medicine certain TV series cant run

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    A good place where this is evident is state-run teaching hospitals as compared to private practice. At a teaching hospital a resident may be doing the surgery one of his first times under supervision. At a private practice you might be having your surgery done by a practitioner who has been doing your routine surgery for 40-50 years. Obviously residents need to be trained, but they are being trained largely at public hospitals and not in private practice.
    Whats worse is that there may be differences in skill between attendings (non-students).

    I had the opportunity to observe several procedures practiced by different doctors, one fellow and two attendings. While the fellows (students) weren't as good, the teaching attending was significantly inferior to the other attending who didn't teach; a shame because the non-teaching attending completed procedures much faster with higher level of success.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    Because with social medicine certain TV series cant run
    While I giggled, the United States has the best outcomes with regard to cancer, it's one of the things our system handles quite well, even though the cost is extremely high. So, really, the Breaking Bad Canada might go that way or it might go like, "I recommend an extra mortgage on your house and a trip to MD Anderson".

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    While I giggled, the United States has the best outcomes with regard to cancer, it's one of the things our system handles quite well, even though the cost is extremely high. So, really, the Breaking Bad Canada might go that way or it might go like, "I recommend an extra mortgage on your house and a trip to MD Anderson".
    I'm inclined to suspect that that has more to do with our wealth than with our system itself. I mean private health care or public health care isn't going to get you anywhere if you're trying to get chemo in the Yukon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  14. #54
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Århus
    Posts
    17,889
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    While I giggled, the United States has the best outcomes with regard to cancer, it's one of the things our system handles quite well, even though the cost is extremely high. So, really, the Breaking Bad Canada might go that way or it might go like, "I recommend an extra mortgage on your house and a trip to MD Anderson".
    I gotta see dem statistics about that first! :P

    But still - as you say - only if you can pay the bills.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 03:28 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I'm inclined to suspect that that has more to do with our wealth than with our system itself. I mean private health care or public health care isn't going to get you anywhere if you're trying to get chemo in the Yukon.
    I feel like im missing a reference...

    Yukon is something about the gold rush isnt it?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I'm inclined to suspect that that has more to do with our wealth than with our system itself. I mean private health care or public health care isn't going to get you anywhere if you're trying to get chemo in the Yukon.
    Yeah, our sheer spending on cancer treatments is surely the (well, I think it's sure anyway) the primary reason for the difference. We have some very expensive things available for treatments that simply aren't available everywhere, yet.

    This remains one of the few good arguments that the American system isn't as bad as it looks on paper - a lot of innovation is done here that allows other nations to eventually reap benefits at lower costs. I'm not buying this as justification for the profit margins or medical salaries, but it is a thing.

  16. #56
    I don't understand how our insurance model relates to our level of technology though. Its not like its insurance companies developing that stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    I gotta see dem statistics about that first! :P

    But still - as you say - only if you can pay the bills.
    This is a tick older than I'd like (2009) and from an economics blog, but I'm too lazy to hunt down a better source at the moment: http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/08/...nd-cancer.html

    This isn't something that too many folks generally dispute though. We have other failings, but our cancer outcomes are very good.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    I gotta see dem statistics about that first! :P

    But still - as you say - only if you can pay the bills.
    Whats to say such an expensive procedure will be covered under socialized medicine?

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I don't understand how our insurance model relates to our level of technology though. Its not like its insurance companies developing that stuff.
    The argument is that consumers with deep pockets drive innovation.

    I'm inclined to suggest that the world market nature of medicine makes this unlikely and lean towards our high public funding of medical research, relative to other countries as the primary driver.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    The argument is that consumers with deep pockets drive innovation.

    I'm inclined to suggest that the world market nature of medicine makes this unlikely and lean towards our high public funding of medical research, relative to other countries as the primary driver.
    I would think that increased demand for high end medical technologies would drive demand for them far more than a few rich consumers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •