Why does socialized medicine suck again?

[Ofmanv]

I just had non-essential surgery in my chest (a procedure which took around 2 hours of operating) and it left me with a bill of around 15 USD... lol
So tell me, why does socialized medicine suck again? This procedure would've cost around 6000 dollars if I had funded it privately....

This is a perfect illustration of the blissful ignorance of the socialist state. "In my socialist state this cost me 15 dollars, in yours it costs $6000. The $5985 difference just came from nowhere and helped me out so much."

All of these socialized European states pretend like their taxes are paying for their ridiculously expensive government budgets, and while you do pay a lot of taxes, it's still not paying for it. Every western European country is 2 1/2 times its GDP in debt. It's not a "strange coincidence".

Americans are already concerned about its federal govt's massive federal debt at 75% of GDP, we don't need it shooting up to European levels trying to make the government take on even more reponsibilities of dolling out everyone's personal prerogatives.

So ya, as long as we ignore where the money is going to come from, as every socialist country does and just runs up massive debt, socialism is great.

[Darthcullen]

Insurance reform is not the same as socialized medicine.

[geewhiz80]

This is a perfect illustration of the blissful ignorance of the socialist state. "In my socialist state this cost me 15 dollars, in yours it costs $6000. The $5985 difference just came from nowhere and helped me out so much."

All of these socialized European states pretend like their taxes are paying for their ridiculously expensive government budgets, and while you do pay a lot of taxes, it's still not paying for it. Every western European country is 2 1/2 times its GDP in debt. It's not a "strange coincidence".

Americans are already concerned about its federal govt's massive federal debt at 75% of the debt, we don't need it shooting up to European levels trying to make the government take on even more reponsibilities of dolling out everyone's personal prerogatives.

So ya, as long as we ignore where the money is going to come from, as every socialist country does and just runs up massive debt, socialism is great.

The problem is, the governments are spending money on things that don't really help a lot of people who actually need help. How does spending almost 1 trillion dollars on national defense help the person who is on fixed income and cannot afford $400/month for insurance because they have a pre-existing condition?

Society has it's priorities all screwed up in my opinion.

[yurano]

The problem is, the governments are spending money on things that don't really help a lot of people who actually need help. How does spending almost 1 trillion dollars on national defense help the person who is on fixed income and cannot afford $400/month for insurance because they have a pre-existing condition?

National defense spending = taking oil from weak nations. Not very moral, but it works. American prices for gas is incredibly low.

[geewhiz80]

National defense spending = taking oil from weak nations. Not very moral, but it works. American prices for gas is incredibly low.

Cause that's exactly what we need lol.

There are so many other sources to generate energy that we as a country could utilize to greatly reduce our dependence on oil if we wanted to.

[Masark]

I feel like im missing a reference...

Yukon is something about the gold rush isnt it?

Yukon is a territory (like a province, but a bit different). It's next to Alaska. It's basically synonymous with "extremely remote area".

[Raintola]

Yeah never mind that these systems perform better and cost less! Better to just get hung up on rhetoric.

Principles are more important to some people. It's like the samurai who would commit suicide if they lost their honor. Yes, most people would consider it stupidity, but did someone else's opinion matter to them? Probably not. I'm not at all interested in even the remote possibility of being required by law to pay for someone who refuses to put in their fair share. There are many, MANY charities out there that I can give to if I desire to do such a thing.

Here's my question: Is it actually possible to use the systems that other countries use with such a large, "diverse," population?

[Endus]

On socialized medicine, you may not have had the option for life support.

That's simply not true. Socialized medicine the world over is run according to triage. The ONLY reason they would cut off life support is if there's no chance of recovery. Which is as it should be; maintaining someone in an artificial vegetative state is a horrendous affront to the person they were, and the only purpose is to falsely delay the grief of their family.

If you've got a chance of recovery, you'll get the life support you need. That's how triage systems work. Anyone claiming anything else is peddling a lie.

[Ausr]

Because helping out your fellow man is evil, apparently.

[Raintola]

Because helping out your fellow man is evil, apparently.

Why should I use up my resources to help out someone who isn't willing to gather his own?

[Adam Jensen]

Socialized medicine doesn't work.

Great Britian, Sweden, Canada, et al are all lying to us. They are actually third world dystopias that look like first world civilizations.

Don't be fooled.

[Annapolis]

If you've got a chance of recovery, you'll get the life support you need. That's how triage systems work. Anyone claiming anything else is peddling a lie.

Doctors often don't know when or if a patient will come out of a coma. That's very common. You're basically saying that in a socialized system they'd suddenly know if there is a chance of recovery and keep them on life support? In either case a decision has to be made on the likelihood of a positive outcome of a procedure. In the United States you are given a lot of freedom of decision on when to pull the plug. A socialized medical system would not be able to avoid these types of decisions in their coverages.

[obdigore]

Why should I use up my resources to help out someone who isn't willing to gather his own?

Why do you think you should be able to continuously take from other people but never be asked to contribute to society?

I'm also quite interested in why you think tax money is 'your resources' at any point?

[Lilfrier]

Except that wouldnt happen in a Single Payer System. There would be only 1 insurer...the government. If a hospital or clinic decided not to accept that insurance "Assuming they would even be allowed to, they would likely legally have to", then they would have no customers and would go out of business.

The main advantage of a Single Payer System is leverage.

So...how is this NOT a monopoly? We talk about how if a company gets into a single-provider system (for example, if all computers were Microsoft-based ones), then it's bad because the company can jack up prices.

We then have this healthcare monopoly and call it gold. The government can then say they choose not to cover someone's specific procedure for any reason, or that they don't care to pay the typical rates for a doctor, and the market is controlled entirely by the government. It has a potential to cause a problem for those doctors who are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars in debt when the government's determined value for medical procedures drastically lowers their earning power.

---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 04:23 AM ----------

It doesn't, and would be beneficial if the U.S. were to adopt a good socialized medicine program. Being the country that spends the most on healthcare, yet has one of the worst healthcare systems is pretty shitty.

Somethings just do not belong in private enterprise hands, especially when it comes to health and well-being.

Why is that? I could easily say something similar about not letting such things be controlled by the government, which is NOTORIOUS for overspending, mismanagement of funds, and being a generally shady bunch of people who work for the betterment of their own kinds, rather than the nation as a whole.

[Wells]

Jesus christ you'd think from some of the people decrying socialized health care that is was just some theoretical model instead of how most of the 1st world operates successfully.

[Roose]

I am not sure who to be more upset with. On one hand you have the Democrats pushing mandated insurance disguised as universal healthcare. On the other hand you have Republicans that do not understand what socialism actually is. I wish that both sides really knew what socialized medicine really means. Maybe then the Democrats would stop praising Obama's guises to stuff the pockets of insurance companies and big pharm, and the Republicans would realize that Obama is more on their side than they could possibly imagine.

[Endus]

Doctors often don't know when or if a patient will come out of a coma. That's very common. You're basically saying that in a socialized system they'd suddenly know if there is a chance of recovery and keep them on life support?

If you're not sure whether they'll recover, then there's a chance of recovery. Yes, under socialized medicine systems, if there's a chance of recovery, you keep them on life support. The decision is made based on what the patient needs, not on expense.

In either case a decision has to be made on the likelihood of a positive outcome of a procedure. In the United States you are given a lot of freedom of decision on when to pull the plug. A socialized medical system would not be able to avoid these types of decisions in their coverages.

The US needs those freedoms, because the survivors of the patient will be bankrupted by the climbing costs of life support once their insurance decides not to pay for it any more. Socialized systems don't force you into that situation. You're never told "well, your grandma has a 10% chance of survival, but we're going to pull the plug and let her die." Just does not happen.

We avoid the question by never putting families in a position where they'd ever have to be asked it in the first place.

[Roose]

Jesus christ you'd think from some of the people decrying socialized health care that is was just some theoretical model instead of how most of the 1st world operates successfully.

No kidding. I admit that I was ignorant on the subject. After reading up and talking to people that live it, you find that we are fed straight up bullshit.

[Giants41]

I'm from the US and love my personal healthcare set up. Really good plan. But we definitely need to get good care for everyone. I don't think other countries system would translate here well, just a feeling, but hopefully we come up with some solution.

[Annapolis]

Jesus christ you'd think from some of the people decrying socialized health care that is was just some theoretical model instead of how most of the 1st world operates successfully.

I think that we do some things better than countries with socialized medicine and I would like to keep those while improving our system. If that involves heading more toward a socialized medical system then so be it, but I don't want to just settle for what other countries have and lose what we do better than them.