Why does socialized medicine suck again?

[geewhiz80]

Socialized medicine can be effective, just not in America. There's no reason that everyone should get treated the same when I have to work and they don't. Simple as that. It's selfish yes, horrible even, but I don't go to work every day so someone who sits on welfare can get the same care as me. That's all Americans do, leech off whatever system they can.

So those who literally cannot work deserve less care than you? Why? Would you deny a person who is quadriplegic after a car accident good health care since they can no long support themselves?

[Noomz]

Socialized medicine can be effective, just not in America. There's no reason that everyone should get treated the same when I have to work and they don't. Simple as that. It's selfish yes, horrible even, but I don't go to work every day so someone who sits on welfare can get the same care as me. That's all Americans do, leech off whatever system they can.

Who are these "they" that don't work? "They" seem to be a vast majority of the nation, since there seems to be many of "them" to pay for.
But I know, let's just let people die because they don't have a job. Yes, that'd show them.

[Maxwelll4112]

So those who literally cannot work deserve less care than you? Why? Would you deny a person who is quadriplegic after a car accident good health care since they can no long support themselves?

They dont deserve my hard earned money its not my responsibility to pay for that shit

[Mortiegama]

Who are these "they" that don't work? "They" seem to be a vast majority of the nation, since there seems to be many of "them" to pay for.
But I know, let's just let people die because they don't have a job. Yes, that'd show them.

There's entire rungs of society that abuse the welfare system. They'd do the same with socalized medicine. It's destroyed Canadian ERs because for non-critical surgeries it can take months. A lot of Canadians will cross over to the US just to get those taken care of out of pocket rather than wait.

[geewhiz80]

They dont deserve my hard earned money its not my responsibility to pay for that shit

And that's why I despise our society. It's all about who can amass the most shit. If I have extra and someone legitimately needs help then I do what I can to help. I know it's a stupid concept, but what can I say, I guess I'm just an old softy.

[obdigore]

There's entire rungs of society that abuse the welfare system. They'd do the same with socalized medicine. It's destroyed Canadian ERs because for non-critical surgeries it can take months. A lot of Canadians will cross over to the US just to get those taken care of out of pocket rather than wait.

Oh look, more of this made up Welfare-Queen BS. There are quite a few threads on this forum that show that welfare and medicare have less fraud and waste than any US insurance company. Please stop spouting this trash.

[Twotonsteak]

And what a great place you'd be in if that were the case.

It's hillarious to see keyboard champions talking tough when they themselves benefit hugely from the systems they think are for the "weak".

I live in a rural area. We have no local police. Our fire department is volunteer. We don't have a sewer system. (We have wells for water and septic-tanks for...waste.) The closest thing we receive in "benefits" is the roads* and their a bloody mess.

I also believe the Governments only function should be National Defense. (I can't add Police and such because, as I said, we don't have those.)

*The inter-state highway system was actually inspired by Germany's system and the ease of which it made moving their military around. To this end the US highway and road system would fall under "National Defense."

[Lilfrier]

So private insurers that charge hundreds of dollars per month to cover 1 person should be able to say "Oh we're not gonna cover that cause you went to this doctor instead of the doctor we told you to go to"? Healthcare should be something that no one should ever have bankrupt them. Greed is the problem more than anything else if you ask me.

I agree wholeheartedly that greed is an issue with these things. However, rather than using taxes to circumvent the moral issues of the world is a Band-Aid on a gash. It's similar to the concept that banning violent video games will end people's decisions to kill others (or that banning guns will do it, actually). Instead of attacking freedoms of choice, there needs to be a greater investment (and I mean in terms of effort, not money) to end these negative morals, rather than half-assing something together to pretend it solves a problem when it simply solves one symptom.

What I suggest is incredibly difficult in such a morally bankrupt society, but if people were not so attached to a specific lifestyle, then we could get somewhere. People want to say "but I need it" when you say boycott telecommunications companies you hate by not buying a smartphone, but if a MASSIVE group of people would stop that mentality, we'd get somewhere. Instead, we want to attack the big companies with these silly taxes, when they're going to hurt honest, hard-working people more in the end.

[Twotonsteak]

So those who literally cannot work deserve less care than you? Why? Would you deny a person who is quadriplegic after a car accident good health care since they can no long support themselves?

What about my cousin that's collecting 75k a year for life. He's getting more than most people I know and he deserves to have everyone else pay for his health care?

[Masark]

I agree that it is wrong to simply allow the sick and hungry to suffer. I do not agree that the answer is to take from those who are not without their say simply because YOU believe in that stance. I mean, for all of the left's claims to support evolution and survival of the fittest, shouldn't THAT belief system support NOT helping the sick and hungry at the expense of the fit and functioning in society? I'm not saying that is how I feel, simply what I think that the idea of evolution alludes to.

No. Stop conflating biological evolution and sociopathic social darwinism ideologies.

[Noomz]

There's entire rungs of society that abuse the welfare system. They'd do the same with socalized medicine. It's destroyed Canadian ERs because for non-critical surgeries it can take months. A lot of Canadians will cross over to the US just to get those taken care of out of pocket rather than wait.

Because socialized healthcare means you get a LOT of patients. And perhaps Canada has the same problem as my country does, understaffed and underfunded hospitals. I wouldn't know, I know nothing about Canada.

I've lived on welfare here in Sweden for 6 years because I've been through a lot of shit I'd rather not write about here. Again. You're telling me that I don't deserve healthcare because I have no job? Or how should people be judged and chosen?

[Masark]

There's entire rungs of society that abuse the welfare system. They'd do the same with socalized medicine. It's destroyed Canadian ERs because for non-critical surgeries it can take months. A lot of Canadians will cross over to the US just to get those taken care of out of pocket rather than wait.

Your diet appears to be critically deficient in reality. Have you ever even been to Canada, much less had anything to do with our healthcare system?

Have you ever actually talked with a Canadian about our healthcare system? And no, the lying fraud going on about her tumor the Republicans dredged up for their ads doesn't count.

[Endus]

There's entire rungs of society that abuse the welfare system. They'd do the same with socalized medicine. It's destroyed Canadian ERs because for non-critical surgeries it can take months.

Are you aware of what "non-critical" means, in health-speak?

There's a reason you wait months. Because it's not that big a deal, and there's bigger issues. It has nothing to do with people "abusing" the system; you can't get surgeons to do wasteful surgeries on you.

A lot of Canadians will cross over to the US just to get those taken care of out of pocket rather than wait.

It's really not "a lot". There's a few wealthy Canadians who do so to jump the queue or to pay extra for "first-class" post-op care, but there's wealthy Americans who go to various other countries for treatments they can't get in the US, too. That's still for the wealthy only, not regular folks.

Not to mention that there's literally busloads of Americans who come to Canada for our cheaper prescription prices. To the extent that it's becoming official policy in some border cities; http://seniorliving.about.com/od/law...adrugtrips.htm

[geewhiz80]

What about my cousin that's collecting 75k a year for life. He's getting more than most people I know and he deserves to have everyone else pay for his health care?

I've never heard of anyone making that much on disability, and I don't agree with your cousin collecting that much. You can live well off of far less than that.

[Adam Jensen]

I agree that it is wrong to simply allow the sick and hungry to suffer. I do not agree that the answer is to take from those who are not without their say simply because YOU believe in that stance. I mean, for all of the left's claims to support evolution and survival of the fittest, shouldn't THAT belief system support NOT helping the sick and hungry at the expense of the fit and functioning in society? I'm not saying that is how I feel, simply what I think that the idea of evolution alludes to.

Biological evolution has nothing to do with being selfish to the point of not helping your fellow man. On the contrary, evolution led us to being a social creature and we survived over the ages because we were altruistic and we helped the sick and hungry. Once they were no longer sick and hungry, they were again able to contribute and help the tribe survive.

[Noomz]

What about my cousin that's collecting 75k a year for life. He's getting more than most people I know and he deserves to have everyone else pay for his health care?

When you think a persons life is not worth caring for just because a person lives on welfare, you set no value in human life.

[Lilfrier]

As with most taxes, the rich pay more. The first part of your logic is flawed.

There is a strong opinion in the US that many are hungry/sick due to their own actions. Plus, American are more upset with welfare abuse than pretty much anything else.

In all fairness, it's not entirely wrong to say that, though. Some people are legitimately incapable of certain things, but ambition and willingness to work is a major problem. Welfare abuse angers people so greatly because of the ease with which it is done. I mean, we don't do anything CLOSE to enough to incentivize people to get off of welfare. My dad made mention a couple of weeks ago that my family would probably be better-off financially if he and my stepmom divorced, he took custody of my half-brothers, he got alimony from my stepmom, then he quit his job and lived off of welfare.

Seriously, what is this ObamaPhone garbage? There is a tent in my town where people can literally go and get a free cellphone and minutes. Someone my dad knows said he knew a guy who was getting a new phone almost monthly from his son because his son would go get these phones, then sell them online after a month and get a new one. That's the kind of craziness that bothers people.

[Twotonsteak]

The 'law' isn't really in effect yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient...dable_Care_Act

That lists the timeline the laws provisions will be rolled out. Most of the money-saving stuff doesn't come into effect for a couple more years.

2014 is when a bunch of the cost-saving stuff takes effect.

And should I start to save money in 2014, I will eat my words and apologize. However logic would dictate something else.

Let's say you own a store that sells a certain product. Up until now you've worked on an open marked. Supply and demand set your prices. When demand went up so did your prices. That's the market. Now let's say the Feds come along and TELL everyone they HAVE to buy the product you sell, sending demand through the roof. Logic would dictate that you would raise prices. After all people HAVE to buy your product so what's the incentive to lower your prices?

Do you understand my logic now?

[Lilfrier]

Biological evolution has nothing to do with being selfish to the point of not helping your fellow man. On the contrary, evolution led us to being a social creature and we survived over the ages because we were altruistic and we helped the sick and hungry. Once they were no longer sick and hungry, they were again able to contribute and help the tribe survive.

Except you could argue that unnecessary time and effort was put into helping many of those people. How is it beneficial to provide social services to uneducated, jobless people for free? Would it not be better to simply do away with them? I'm not saying I support these ideas, just that this idea that we're going to go with "survival of the fittest" while saying "help the unfit" seems to contradict itself.

Yes, I agree that there is a benefit in being the social creatures we are, but some of these ideas do not support the advancement of society like people want. Wouldn't it be better to simply start shooting and removing those who disagree with these sentiments if they are seen as slowing the progress of society, be that the religious right, the political right, or the uneducated/jobless?

[geewhiz80]

And should I start to save money in 2014, I will eat my words and apologize. However logic would dictate something else.

Let's say you own a store that sells a certain product. Up until now you've worked on an open marked. Supply and demand set your prices. When demand went up so did your prices. That's the market. Now let's say the Feds come along and TELL everyone they HAVE to buy the product you sell, sending demand through the roof. Logic would dictate that you would raise prices. After all people HAVE to buy your product so what's the incentive to lower your prices?

Do you understand my logic now?

That's my issue with health care in America. It shouldn't be run with profit in mind.