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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    This is something we find pretty commonly among various elements of the "Stop Big Gubmint!" and "Welfare is Bad!" crowd; welfare that they receive is something they've earned, as where the welfare other people get is because Those People are lazy.
    As a U.S. recipient of gov't healthcare, i can say that your not missing much.

    I would support gov't healthcare only if the people getting it had to meet certain specific requirments.

    1. Reckless behavior that results in you getting hurt will be your own cost. I.E. Motorcycling with no PPE, skateboarding with no PPE...etc. If people are going to help you pay for your healthcare costs, then the individual will have to show responsiblity in their actions.

    2. If your obese, your doctor will put you on a exersize routine and diet. As long as the person makes adequate progress (3-6 lBS) a month than they will continue to recieve gov't funded healthcare, for every month that they do not meet satisfactory progress, they will have to foot 20% of the overall treatment bills resulting from their obesity.

    3. There will be a 20$ co-pay per visit, this will keep people from habitually going to the ER everytime they stub their toe.

    4. If you smoke...100% related costs to you....If you drink or use recreational drugs...100% on you.


    The problem that myself and many other americans have with a single payer system is that there would be many people unwilling to subject themselves to requirments such as these to recievegov't healthcare.

    With communial responcibility comes individual accountability.

  2. #382
    Immortal Tierbook's Avatar
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    hmmm i was just looking at debt clock.org for debt around the world and i wondered why America was blinking
    You're a fine example of how gamer communities have become infested with endlessly whining and bitching, arrogant, opinionated, unreasonable, all the way immature, completely delusional, tendentially psychotic, insulting individuals one really doesn't want to be linked with. And playing with you guys is certainly no fun at all. I don't know where this kind of folks spawns from. Must be a nest somewhere ...
    A fine summarization of the community

  3. #383
    The Lightbringer JfmC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tierbook View Post
    hmmm i was just looking at debt clock.org for debt around the world and i wondered why America was blinking
    Dear god that thing is scary, huge numbers and painfull math xS
    Thread:Will we ever create A.I?
    So I just watched Her and it gave me a deep thought. Will man ever create an artificial consciousness or is it impossible. Anyone have any ideas?
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    We are currently creating "A.S" - artificial stupidity. A.K.A internet forums

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    That sounds like a rather bold claim, do you have any reliable source for that information?
    http://archive.sciencewatch.com/dr/cou/2008/08aug20CLI/

    But I'll say that I don't know how much this indicates we spend on medical research. We do probably spend more than other countries through the NIH (which got defunded a bit recently I think) and we support pharmaceutical research for orphan drugs through the orphan drug act. However I've heard that a large reason our costs are much higher than other countries is because of unnecessary treatments.

  5. #385
    Immortal Dezerte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    http://archive.sciencewatch.com/dr/cou/2008/08aug20CLI/

    But I'll say that I don't know how much this indicates we spend on medical research. We do probably spend more than other countries through the NIH (which got defunded a bit recently I think) and we support pharmaceutical research for orphan drugs through the orphan drug act. However I've heard that a large reason our costs are much higher than other countries is because of unnecessary treatments.
    That link only gives us an idea on how much medicine research is done, which unsurprisingly the US scores first on.

    Orlong however was claiming the US is the sole inventor of medicine.
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  6. #386
    Herald of the Titans theredviola's Avatar
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    Because if you're too poor to aford healthcare, it's your fault for not working hard enough! It's YOUR fault you didn't go to college and get a degree in underwater basket weaving to land you that 100K a year job! It's YOUR fault you took a bad job. Stop leeching off MY hard earned money! I worked for years to get to this desk job where I can set on my ass all day holding meetings while making in a day what you make in a month. STOP BEING LAZY, THAT'S WHY.

    /end rant
    /sarcasm mode off
    "Do not only practice your art, but force yourself into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine." -- Ludwig Van Beethoven

  7. #387
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Oddly enough all that medical research is done at... wait for it.. PUBLIC EXPENSE. That's always the case with fundamental research. The internet was developed for example at PUBLIC EXPENSE. Big pharma r and d is more about marketing and testing than it is about fundamental research.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by theredviola View Post
    Because if you're too poor to aford healthcare, it's your fault for not working hard enough! It's YOUR fault you didn't go to college and get a degree in underwater basket weaving to land you that 100K a year job! It's YOUR fault you took a bad job. Stop leeching off MY hard earned money! I worked for years to get to this desk job where I can set on my ass all day holding meetings while making in a day what you make in a month. STOP BEING LAZY, THAT'S WHY.

    /end rant
    /sarcasm mode off
    Class envy is delicious

  9. #389
    What really bothers me when it comes to the American debate about Socialized Medicine, is the apparent missinformation of part of the public.

    A socialized healthcare system and a private insure system ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. Socialized healthcare is paid out of a fund that is fueled by something called Social Security. The governament legistlates how much of that goes into unemployement benefits, public housing etc and healthcare. Social security is not a % of your income, but a fixed summ. True the summ goes up and down depending on which tax bracket you are going into, but the variation is rarely more then 100%. Meaning the highest earner will pay double that the minimum income taxpayer, but not really much more. Let's face if someone on minimum wage is paying 400 euros (for exemple, I'm using European numbers here as I am more familiar with taxes and such here), someone who is earning the top tax brackets can pay 800 without considering it being a major blow to his income.

    The funny thing is tho that unemployement benefits awarded to you are proportional to your previous income. Like 70% of your last paycheck was. So while you do pay more, you do recieve more when you need it.

    Going back to healthcare. When you have a socialized healthcare system, the governament is normally not allowed to fund healthcare from income tax, as there is already an existing tax for funding healthcare. Altought while they often do funnel money around it is almost never healthcare but rather additional services, such as free ambulance transport for the elderly for regular health check ups, free preemptive care, subsidies for things like alternative theraphy etc. things that someone would not strictly consider healthcare, just care in general. For exemple...here in Spain everyone who is classed as suffering of certain limitations on his autonomy (disabled or elderly) are given something that looks like a necklace with a button on it. If the button is pressed it alerts the medical services that the person will be needing an ambulance at his home and it will start emiting a loud sound alert so if the person is in a public space people around him know that he needs medical assistance. Of course this is a horribly expensive service and it is paid for by social security. And it's up for debate if it should be included or not, at least in my mind.

    Now going back to the private care. Private hospitals still exist and are available to anyone who can afford it. But due to the fact that the private health service is in direct competition with the public one (which is "free" as they will not deny you any type of care you might need no matter if you are an illegal migrant or you are not a taxpayer) the private care providers need to keep their services at a reasonable price, otherwise they are dead. Thus usually people who do contract private insurance do so for the extra service, immediate personalized care, hotel room quality hospital bedrooms which is still more affordable then in the US. And even so, if they need any service for which they do not want to pay extra (like a full check up or a flu shot or an expensive operation not covered by their insurer) they can still at any time go to their nearest hospital.

    Further more. The story of not being allowed to pick your own doctor is another myth. Everyone is free to chose their family doctor as long as it is a person holding a proper license, he maybe a doctor from the governament health service or even a private practice (private practices who are paid by the governament, but are paid the same amount as a governament doctor would). You can also choose your own specialists or hospital as long as he/she is available and it is within the district/region where you are hospitalized.

    So if you really look into it, no matter what you chose private or public care in a welfare state with a free market and public healthcare you end up having more choices available to you, 100% security that you will recieve care and all that will still be cheap or atleast cheaper for everyone.

    A nother issue when it comes to healthcare is that the general wealth of a nation has a great impact on the quality of the care available. Also socialized care systems tend to yield greater national results the poorer a country is. They might be less healthy then richer nations, but without said system being available to them they would be much much worse off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooneye View Post
    Sexual assault is not always rape.
    *slowclap*
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooneye View Post
    Woman rapes a guy, gives birth to child and has custody of the child.
    I don't see why you should take the child from the woman unless she abuses it.

  10. #390
    Heres why socialized medicine sucks--- because someone has to pay taxes for these things to happen. However, for the US, the champions of non-socialized healthcare, there are much more rediculous things we spend money on. I have a friend in Canada who makes just as much money as I do, pay just as much in taxes, but while my taxes go to bomb other countries and pay for food stamps, his taxes get him socialized healthcare.

  11. #391
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supertony51 View Post
    Class envy is delicious
    There's no class envy in saying that some people don't deserve what they are making, and some other people deserve a lot more.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by theredviola View Post
    Because if you're too poor to aford healthcare, it's your fault for not working hard enough! It's YOUR fault you didn't go to college and get a degree in underwater basket weaving to land you that 100K a year job! It's YOUR fault you took a bad job. Stop leeching off MY hard earned money! I worked for years to get to this desk job where I can set on my ass all day holding meetings while making in a day what you make in a month. STOP BEING LAZY, THAT'S WHY.

    /end rant
    /sarcasm mode off
    Do you know what's really frightening? If you didn't put in that "/sarcasm mode off" element I could've believed that was 100% serious from somebody. =/
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  13. #393
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiricine View Post
    Heres why socialized medicine sucks--- because someone has to pay taxes for these things to happen. However, for the US, the champions of non-socialized healthcare, there are much more rediculous things we spend money on. I have a friend in Canada who makes just as much money as I do, pay just as much in taxes, but while my taxes go to bomb other countries and pay for food stamps, his taxes get him socialized healthcare.
    We have food stamps in Canada too. And we have armed forces.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiricine View Post
    Heres why socialized medicine sucks--- because someone has to pay taxes for these things to happen. However, for the US, the champions of non-socialized healthcare, there are much more rediculous things we spend money on. I have a friend in Canada who makes just as much money as I do, pay just as much in taxes, but while my taxes go to bomb other countries and pay for food stamps, his taxes get him socialized healthcare.
    People have to pay taxes on just about everything. You say you don't like it? Join the fucking club, but it's just how it goes. We pay for highways, cops, public schools, firemen. All of those things are necessary. These things are important, but so is not having sick people, especially those who can't do anything about it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 09:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    We have food stamps in Canada too. And we have armed forces.
    Canada, nor any other country in the world, comes remotely close to what the U.S. spends on the military. It is above and beyond any country in the world. You cannot even compare the cost.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    There's no class envy in saying that some people don't deserve what they are making, and some other people deserve a lot more.
    This reminds me of one of my favorite Discworld passages I'll paraphrase from memory:

    The cult leader then says to the crowd: "Maybe in our new society, we would only allow showy coaches for the deserving!"
    The crowd then mentally divided all the people into the deserving, and the undeserving... and placed themselves on the appropriate side.
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    My god cut the nationalistic rubbish and do a google search, its nausiating to read this kind of stuff.
    Almost all medical research is done by Americans (measured in research spending).

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by cherb View Post
    People have to pay taxes on just about everything. You say you don't like it? Join the fucking club, but it's just how it goes. We pay for highways, cops, public schools, firemen. All of those things are necessary. These things are important, but so is not having sick people, especially those who can't do anything about it.
    Oh, they can do something about it... they can grab a gun and rob a drug store or somebody's house to pay for their medical needs. Or they can just say "F*#^ it!" and just grab a gun and go on a final spree before their death.
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    There's no class envy in saying that some people don't deserve what they are making, and some other people deserve a lot more.
    Who gets to make that determination?

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by supertony51 View Post
    Who gets to make that determination?
    Obviously those who believe they're part of the deserving, of course! :P
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    What really bothers me when it comes to the American debate about Socialized Medicine, is the apparent missinformation of part of the public.

    A socialized healthcare system and a private insure system ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. Socialized healthcare is paid out of a fund that is fueled by something called Social Security. The governament legistlates how much of that goes into unemployement benefits, public housing etc and healthcare. Social security is not a % of your income, but a fixed summ. True the summ goes up and down depending on which tax bracket you are going into, but the variation is rarely more then 100%. Meaning the highest earner will pay double that the minimum income taxpayer, but not really much more. Let's face if someone on minimum wage is paying 400 euros (for exemple, I'm using European numbers here as I am more familiar with taxes and such here), someone who is earning the top tax brackets can pay 800 without considering it being a major blow to his income.

    The funny thing is tho that unemployement benefits awarded to you are proportional to your previous income. Like 70% of your last paycheck was. So while you do pay more, you do recieve more when you need it.

    Going back to healthcare. When you have a socialized healthcare system, the governament is normally not allowed to fund healthcare from income tax, as there is already an existing tax for funding healthcare. Altought while they often do funnel money around it is almost never healthcare but rather additional services, such as free ambulance transport for the elderly for regular health check ups, free preemptive care, subsidies for things like alternative theraphy etc. things that someone would not strictly consider healthcare, just care in general.
    It may be true in your country that the top tax payers only pay double of what the bottom tax payers pay, but that's not the case in the United States.

    http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pa...ome-taxes.html
    http://taxfoundation.org/article/sum...ome-tax-data-0

    The top 10% of earners pay 70.5% of the total income tax for the United States and the top 50% pay 97.7% of total income. Even if somebody making 500k a year paid only 25% income tax that would be 125k. Somebody making even 125k a year will not be paying half of their income in taxes. So the wealthy definitely put forth much more than twice the amount of others.

    I agree that socialized systems and private systems aren't mutually exclusive, but this debate to me is about how much money you put into socialized medicine.

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