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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Using that source is kind of a joke, no?
    You say my source is a joke when they get their data from IRS statistics and then post a wikipedia link.

    Does MSN work? http://money.msn.com/tax-planning/wh...-real-tax-rate

    Or the specifically non-partisan tax policy center? http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=456

    The average effective federal income tax is about 11% it really isn't 20%. Why do you keep linking the base tax rates? nobody pays those rates. And the average is not 20% it is 11%

    Also here's an article from CNN: http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/18/news...rate/index.htm
    It is about Mitt Romney's rate just because that's when they were talking about effective tax rate in the media.

    If nearly half of Americans pay no effective tax then why is it surprising that the average effective tax rate is about 11%?
    Last edited by Annapolis; 2013-01-22 at 06:57 AM.

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    You say my source is a joke when they get their data from IRS statistics and then post a wikipedia link.

    Does MSN work? http://money.msn.com/tax-planning/wh...-real-tax-rate

    Or the specifically non-partisan tax policy center? http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=456

    The average effective federal income tax is about 11% it really isn't 20%. Why do you keep linking the base tax rates? nobody pays those rates. And the average is not 20% it is 11%
    I find it ironic that you keep linking places that factor in people who are on welfare or who make minimum wage (who have all their federal tax refunded because they make so little) as statistics that we need to look at.

    Edit -> Your tax policy center also has the 'average federal tax rate' at over 17% in 2009, which is the last year listed. Not 11%.
    Last edited by obdigore; 2013-01-22 at 07:01 AM.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    I find it ironic that you keep linking places that factor in people who are on welfare or who make minimum wage (who have all their federal tax refunded because they make so little) as statistics that we need to look at.
    How is that ironic? Ironic would be not including people on social programs in a discussion comparing the social programs abroad to those of the United States.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    How is that ironic? Ironic would be not including people on social programs in a discussion comparing the social programs abroad to those of the United States.
    Because those numbers artificially deflate the actual tax burden upon the people paying federal income taxes.

    Edit -> None of those numbers include medicare or SS tax either, which are certainly taxes for social programs, no?
    Last edited by obdigore; 2013-01-22 at 07:08 AM.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Because those numbers artificially deflate the actual tax burden upon the people paying federal income taxes.

    Edit -> None of those numbers include medicare or SS tax either, which are certainly taxes for social programs, no?
    Ya those rates aren't in their calculations. Could be because that's confusing right now. They just increased one of those rates by a few percent. But it looks like if you add in SS and medicare you get up to about 16-17% average.

    Edit: actually the MSN article says they did calculate in the payroll taxes too.
    Last edited by Annapolis; 2013-01-22 at 07:30 AM.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    Ya those rates aren't in their calculations. Could be because that's confusing right now. They just increased one of those rates by a few percent. But it looks like if you add in SS and medicare you get up to about 16-17% average.
    Tax policy center already had the rate over 17% averaged for everyone (including people who 'pay' negative federal taxes) without SS or Medicare, from what I can see.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Tax policy center already had the rate over 17% averaged for everyone (including people who 'pay' negative federal taxes) without SS or Medicare, from what I can see.
    Ya but when you average their quintiles it doesn't add up. Plus if you look for effective tax rates on their website you come to http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=366 and it annoyingly doesn't give you an average effective tax rate but there's no way those numbers average up to 17% you know? Unless they add in the payroll or something.

  8. #448
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    Honestly, the biggest point any American could make about their flavor of freedom is that, under the Constitution, America went from some backwater colony to the world's superpower in under 200 years. It accomplished that before FDR, before the New Deal, before there was massive federal social programs.
    Soviet Union too brought up the agrarian inefficient empire to be a superpower even though it was in another end of the spectrum.

    You can't really argue with the state of freedom either, with slavery and all. When in comparison to the rest of the world, the US has always had large inequality in both economical & social side + the US has really never had major social reforms. Today you can see it even more clearly with the global leaning more and more right-wing while trade unions are still the underdog in US politics.
    Last edited by mmoc560053bb87; 2013-01-22 at 08:01 AM.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    They went for the sugar tax instead. Which makes more sense because sugar is generally the thing making people fat rather than... well... fat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    "standard of living" is a subjective term. A conservative might make low taxes, less government, and freedom the criteria to judge standard of living. A leftist might favor health care, not because they particularly like health care, but because they can spin the health care ranking to "prove" that countries with the highest stand of living are socialist.

    And then it comes down to both sides acting confident in their own subjective measures of standard of living, and both sides attempt to discredit the other sides methodology and criteria, no-one listening to each other, and lies being spewed everywhere. You know, politics.
    I was right.

  10. #450
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    "standard of living" is a subjective term. A conservative might make low taxes, less government, and freedom the criteria to judge standard of living. A leftist might favor health care, not because they particularly like health care, but because they can spin the health care ranking to "prove" that countries with the highest stand of living are socialist.

    And then it comes down to both sides acting confident in their own subjective measures of standard of living, and both sides attempt to discredit the other sides methodology and criteria, no-one listening to each other, and lies being spewed everywhere. You know, politics.
    Wait a minute will you. Standard of living shows the quality of everyday life and individual's chances of movement in social environment, not the means the American politics offer to accomplish that.

    What a poor attempt of derailing from you.

  11. #451
    Deleted
    So.. What I see as a general argument against socialized health care is that people don't want to pay it with their tax money or because they feel that people should pay it by themselves. I see.. Okay I have just one simple question then. Why does the tax money of those who oppose death penalty go to fund it? Two different situations, same argument. I am not saying everyone that is against socialized health care support death penalty, but this is just an example of how this sort of thing already exists

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Draiman View Post
    So.. What I see as a general argument against socialized health care is that people don't want to pay it with their tax money or because they feel that people should pay it by themselves. I see.. Okay I have just one simple question then. Why does the tax money of those who oppose death penalty go to fund it? Two different situations, same argument. I am not saying everyone that is against socialized health care support death penalty, but this is just an example of how this sort of thing already exists
    A 2$ needle into someones arm is hardly comparable to the billions that healthcare costs.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Cjeska View Post
    A 2$ needle into someones arm is hardly comparable to the billions that healthcare costs.
    You have no idea what the death penalty costs in the US.

  14. #454
    Wait a sec, there is no R&D done outside the US?

    The only country that spends more on medical/life science research per capita then my country is Switzerland, and thats both private and public investments accounted for, curtesy of IMF and the Worldbank. Pfizer is building a new research lab here, they already got one of their biggest manufactoring plants here, so that makes sense I guess. AstraZenica still got one of their bigger labs here and one of their biggest manufactoring plants. Medicine and Life science is a growing industry and has always been prioritized.

    R&d as a whole is similiar.

    % of GDP PPP as of 2011
    1. Israel
    2. South Korea
    3. Japan
    4. Sweden
    5. Finland
    6. USA

    Yes USA got +300 million people so it's obvious that there is more money and more people working with it but that doesn't fucking mean that no other countries are spending money on R&D and medical R&D. /facepalm.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  15. #455
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's a reason those particular products are in the $1 bin. Because they won't sell at full price. It's not comparable to the pharma prices, because Canadians are getting the newest drugs at the lower rates, too. We're not buying the "Ernest Goes to Camp" of drugs.

    The actual difference is, Canada's buying at wholesale prices. Americans are paying the retail markup. It's like going in to buy a new car; Canada dickers with the car company to buy a fleet of cars, and gets a price that's about $300 over the cost-to-produce, since we're buying so many it still means hundreds of thousands in profits to the car company. Americans aren't buying in bulk, they're each going in and paying the +50% retail markup on the manufacturer suggested retail price of the vehicle, because they're not trying to negotiate anything, and the pharmacorps don't see any need to drop prices for a sale or two here or there.
    The college books example was probably better than DVD's. The point still stands, without the US as a primary market, Canada and Europe would have much fewer drugs because USA is used to recoup costs. Without the high prices in US it would not be profitable to develop these drugs.

    Just like it wouldn't be profitable to write college textbooks purely for the indian market (where they're sold at a fraction of the US price).

    The rest of the world is getting a free ride on the back of the United States. This is not anything controversial, it's been long known among industry professionals.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 12:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackmoves View Post
    Yes USA got +300 million people so it's obvious that there is more money and more people working with it but that doesn't fucking mean that no other countries are spending money on R&D and medical R&D. /facepalm.
    We're talking about biomedical/pharmacy R&D, not R&D in general.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    We're talking about biomedical/pharmacy R&D, not R&D in general.
    Yeah, Switzerland spends most per capita, Sweden comes in 2nd(as of 2012). No idea about the US, but I'd guess top 5. Medicine and life sciences is easily the market that gets most investments here.

    USA is easily the biggest if one counts the total amount of capital invested though.
    Last edited by Jackmoves; 2013-01-22 at 12:27 PM.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  17. #457
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackmoves View Post
    Yeah, Switzerland spends most per capita, Sweden comes in 2nd(as of 2012). No idea about the US, but I'd guess top 5. Medicine and life sciences is easily the market that gets most investments here.
    Got a source? Not that it really matters though.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Got a source? Not that it really matters though.
    OECD.

    Only read swedish sources qouting their studies though.

    Like this one.
    Samtidigt som industrin har ett stort ekonomiskt värde i Sverige så har den en mycket stor betydelse också för patienter och för utvecklingen av hälso- och sjukvården i landet. Cirka 30 000 patienter per år ges nya läkemedel i form av kliniska försök. Vidare satsar läkemedelsindustrin mer än 15 miljarder kronor på forskning och utveckling i Sverige vilket kan jämföras med att staten satsar sammanlagt drygt 7 miljarder på medicinsk forskning. Enligt en OECD-studie ligger Sverige och Schweiz i topp i världen då ca en halvprocent av BNP utgörs av läkemedelsforskning.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    You have no idea what the death penalty costs in the US.
    About 1 million dollars more than a regular murder case with a life sentence. The point is, people who oppose the death penalty usually don't do it because of the money. The costs are just one of the arguments. In Healthare however, the costs are the major argument against it. Everybody with some life experience can tell you, the more the government gets involved, the worse the product gets, the higher the costs rise and the more corruption you will see. It works that way all around the world in almost every aspect of daily life. Instead of forcing employers to pay for everyones healthcare, they should have found ways to make it more affordable (you might think that something like the "affordable care act" would do that, but it's just a bandaid with a misleading name and no actual solution). Spreading the stupidly high costs around doesn't fix it, it makes it worse.

  20. #460
    The Patient Velanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aftonflickan View Post
    I just had non-essential surgery in my chest (a procedure which took around 2 hours of operating) and it left me with a bill of around 15 USD... lol
    So tell me, why does socialized medicine suck again? This procedure would've cost around 6000 dollars if I had funded it privately....
    $15 plus all the money you pay into taxes for socialized medicine. Whereas it would cost me nothing with the money I pay into my private insurance.

    In the end, you pay for it either way. I prefer to pick my doctors, though.

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