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  1. #61
    Stood in the Fire Caribald's Avatar
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    "The Horde" has, all the members of the Horde haven't.
    My old solo stuff can be seen on Twitch and Youtube

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Caribald View Post
    "The Horde" has
    ... Or so would people who take a fictional conflict between fictional factions a bit too seriously have you believe.
    Last edited by Sealed; 2013-01-21 at 04:04 PM.

  3. #63
    Brewmaster xindykawai's Avatar
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    no, only garosh imo

  4. #64
    Scarab Lord Unholyground's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Incorrect. Garrosh was born before the demon taint. He was put in "childcare" with all the other weak infancts who all suffered from the Red Pox. Also, orcs turn green from just being near fel-energy, imagine how funky a half-demon orc would actually look.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 04:55 PM ----------



    Not to mention the Alliance version, where Varian actually saves his son and says he's still alive... So yeah.
    Is it possible he was tainted before the red pox?
    “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”

    -Christopher Hitchens, 13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    Wouldn't that strike you as a massive cop out? :x
    Perhaps, but one thing that strikes me about the legion is every time they are about to invade they try to use the Horde as their weapon against Azeroth.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Garrosh is a horrid character, and I don't mean his actions. He's so one dimensional that even Metzen said he'd never get his own book because it would only contain the word "KILL!". Also, trying to fight a war you can't win, while making sure all your allies wants to kill you - is hardly great, it's moronic.
    Yep, you're right - about MoP Garrosh.

    Before this point Garrosh didn't have any complicated personality either, but still a bit of it. He was a son of a warhero, but he considered him (and had rights to) a villian due to his actions, resoulting in shy and nearly cowardly personality in Nagrand. He turned out to be a fierce and ruthless, but very successfull military leader in Wrath, impressing even Thrall. In Cata he showed he has totally different ideas then Thrall, but all he does is for his people - and he has great sense of honor, even if his tactics are brutal time to time. And then MoP and "poof" - you can't say anything about him other than KILL KILL KILL ORC SMASH. This is also the time he switched his simple, but efficient logic with being brain dead.

    If there is anybody to blame, it's Metzen and pals here. They created a character and then, without a real reason, turned him into a bad guy - and not a "bad guy" where it should be discussed, just a guy Frodo Baggins, Spider-Man and Pierce Brosnan have to stop, or some shit is going to happen. It works, but not after you were establishing for 3 expansions that this guy is a bi-polar character at least.

  7. #67
    Bloodsail Admiral Rendia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    I don't think the Horde is "evil." However there is quite a bit of finger pointing. The real true evil in the Azerothian universe is the Burning Legion.

    The oldest war between the Orcs and Humans, can be said that the Orcs were the invaders, the aggressors. However that isn't true. The Orcs were a good shamanistic peaceful race and they lived side by side the Draenei for quite some time. It just so happned to be that the blood thirsty and power hungry orcs decided to commune with the legion. They were aided to coming to Azeroth by Medivh (a human!), who also was tempted by that same power.

    The point is no one race or faction is "evil" both sides have good and evil people.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 02:50 AM ----------



    I think the Undead are in on the peaceful side. They have very few options to adding to their numbers, so fighting wars is against what the want.
    Medivh was not "tempted by that same power". He was possessed by Sargeras, the greatest evil in the universe, as far as we know.
    "There is no teacher but the enemy. No one but the enemy will tell you what the enemy is going to do. No one but the enemy will ever teach you how to destroy and conquer. Only the enemy shows you where you are weak. Only the enemy tells you where he is strong. And the rules of the game are what you can do to him and what you can stop him from doing to you." -Mazer Rackham - Ender's Game Orson Scott Card

  8. #68
    The Insane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Is it possible he was tainted before the red pox?
    No. Besides, he was already born before demons came to Draenor.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 08:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Yep, you're right - about MoP Garrosh.

    Before this point Garrosh didn't have any complicated personality either, but still a bit of it. He was a son of a warhero, but he considered him (and had rights to) a villian due to his actions, resoulting in shy and nearly cowardly personality in Nagrand. He turned out to be a fierce and ruthless, but very successfull military leader in Wrath, impressing even Thrall. In Cata he showed he has totally different ideas then Thrall, but all he does is for his people - and he has great sense of honor, even if his tactics are brutal time to time. And then MoP and "poof" - you can't say anything about him other than KILL KILL KILL ORC SMASH. This is also the time he switched his simple, but efficient logic with being brain dead.

    If there is anybody to blame, it's Metzen and pals here. They created a character and then, without a real reason, turned him into a bad guy - and not a "bad guy" where it should be discussed, just a guy Frodo Baggins, Spider-Man and Pierce Brosnan have to stop, or some shit is going to happen. It works, but not after you were establishing for 3 expansions that this guy is a bi-polar character at least.
    Aye, he's a mess really, and it's clear that at some point they dropped the ball when it came to his development, but then again, that seemed to have happened along with Cataclysm - which basically can be summarized by "dropping the ball".

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    You do know that on heavy Alliance servers in vanilla, it was the Alliance that was constantly causing grief right? Honestly, on my server you couldn't even try and hide in Tarren Mill.
    That's why I pointed out that on a server where there is an imbalance in factions it eventually leads to everyone playing on one side. It doesn't matter which faction does it, it is the nature of the game for things to move in this direction.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
    There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewir...nger-democracy

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    Is anyone going to bring up the fact that Anduin only looks dead for Horde characters who leave immediately?
    For Alliance ones the quest doesn't complete after he "dies" and you summon a gryphon escort to take him to some healers, he's not dead.
    Both quest lines coexist just fine in the same universe except the ending where Garrosh is confronted by Horde or Alliance player. Which is the the lore ending?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  11. #71
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salandrin View Post
    I have not really kept up to date with WoW, but as of 5.2, I plan on returning.

    It would seem Garrosh has killed Anduin, among other things, but even if I'm not too familiar with what's up now, do you effectively think the Horde has gone black now?
    Gone? When did they stop being Evil?

    If the Horde was Orc's Trolls and Tauren at the start the argument could have been made that the Horde were just the brutal races, but they included the Undead, aka the Forsaken. The Forsaken have always been an Evil Faction, they have caused more evil than any other Player faction in the game.

    Now when Thrall was Warchief he did his best to change the Forsaken, but Garrosh he could care less about anything but Orcs. Hellscream is out of control, but do not think that the Horde have ever been good guys. Had Blizzard done what they first planned to do than yes they would have been, early plans for WOW had Night Elves in the Horde, and Forsaken in the Alliance. The reason they didn't do this was they needed a better reason for War, so they put the Orcs against the Nightelves and the Undead against the Humans. I do sometimes wonder what WOW would have been like had they kept the original idea, Just imagine Druids and Shaman would have both been Horde only Classes, while Paladins, and Warlocks would have been the Alliance special Classes. Also it would have caused the Alliance to become the Villains in the story.

  12. #72
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salandrin View Post
    so basically garrosh has completely dropped the beans since late cata?
    If that means he's gone crazy, then yes.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    Perhaps, but one thing that strikes me about the legion is every time they are about to invade they try to use the Horde as their weapon against Azeroth.
    Bloodthirsty demons use bloodthirsty race with predilection toward savagery and evil to do their dirty work. News at 11.

  14. #74
    The Insane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Gone? When did they stop being Evil?

    If the Horde was Orc's Trolls and Tauren at the start the argument could have been made that the Horde were just the brutal races, but they included the Undead, aka the Forsaken. The Forsaken have always been an Evil Faction, they have caused more evil than any other Player faction in the game.

    Now when Thrall was Warchief he did his best to change the Forsaken, but Garrosh he could care less about anything but Orcs. Hellscream is out of control, but do not think that the Horde have ever been good guys. Had Blizzard done what they first planned to do than yes they would have been, early plans for WOW had Night Elves in the Horde, and Forsaken in the Alliance. The reason they didn't do this was they needed a better reason for War, so they put the Orcs against the Nightelves and the Undead against the Humans. I do sometimes wonder what WOW would have been like had they kept the original idea, Just imagine Druids and Shaman would have both been Horde only Classes, while Paladins, and Warlocks would have been the Alliance special Classes. Also it would have caused the Alliance to become the Villains in the story.
    Having Druids be Horde only, and Warlocks be Alliance only was never part of some original idea. Tauren for example, was never even considered a proper druidic race until WoW, and warlocks were never really considered to have anything to do with the Alliance until WoW either.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 09:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    Bloodthirsty demons use bloodthirsty race with predilection toward savagery and evil to do their dirty work. News at 11.
    Yeah that explains why they went for the Draenei first.....

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  15. #75
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Having Druids be Horde only, and Warlocks be Alliance only was never part of some original idea. Tauren for example, was never even considered a proper druidic race until WoW, and warlocks were never really considered to have anything to do with the Alliance until WoW either.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-21 at 09:40 PM ----------



    Yeah that explains why they went for the Draenei first.....
    True, but the Forsaken were the Warlock Race, and Night Elves where the Druid Race. The original plan was each race had a class. I still Wonder what that list looked like. Also the original plan had the Goblins also in the Alliance, and not the Gnomes.

    So the original races were

    Alliance:
    Human - Paladin
    Dwarf - ?
    Forsaken -Warlock
    Goblin -?Tinker?

    Horde:
    Orc - Shamen
    Troll - ?Witchdoctor?
    Tauren - ?Chieftain
    Night Elf - Druid

    Each race had invasion points on the world map, Stranglethorn Vale was the Horde invasion point, and Theramore was the Alliance invasion point.
    Last edited by Gothicshark; 2013-01-21 at 08:59 PM.

  16. #76
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Garrosh is not the Horde.

    And "evil" is in the eye of the beholder.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Garrosh is not the Horde.

    And "evil" is in the eye of the beholder.
    Everyone is the hero of their own story.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  18. #78
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salandrin View Post
    do you effectively think the Horde has gone black now?

    Fuck yeah.

    OT: It's a deeper shade of grey as usual due to Garrosh's tyrannical shenanigans, but the Horde's always been out of saint's camp. Shades of grey, better than shades of gay - you know what I mean.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    True, but the Forsaken were the Warlock Race, and Night Elves where the Druid Race. The original plan was each race had a class. I still Wonder what that list looked like. Also the original plan had the Goblins also in the Alliance, and not the Gnomes.

    So the original races were

    Alliance:
    Human - Paladin
    Dwarf - ?
    Forsaken -Warlock
    Goblin -?Tinker?

    Horde:
    Orc - Shamen
    Troll - ?Witchdoctor?
    Tauren - ?Chieftain
    Night Elf - Druid

    Each race had invasion points on the world map, Stranglethorn Vale was the Horde invasion point, and Theramore was the Alliance invasion point.
    The Forsaken was not a warlock race. Before WoW we hardly knew anything about the Forsaken. If anything, the orcs were the only race ever to have been assosiated with warlocks at that point. And goblins for the Alliance? What is this utterly nonsense, and what is this "original plan"? Also, the Forsaken were never supposed to have been an Alliance race, and neither were the Night Elves supposed to be a Horde race. And Theramore was never an invasion point either, Jaina and her followers constructed that port before they even knew that the Horde was going to settle down in Kalimdor.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  20. #80
    The Lightbringer Humbugged's Avatar
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    I think Humans and Orcs need to just be isolated from the rest of the world and fight each other to death with sticks and stones ala Lord of the Flies. Watch as Azeroth as a whole prospers with the two gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Manakin View Post
    If it's too hard, go to bed and forget about it.

    - Manakin.

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