Has the Horde gone pure evil?

[StationaryHawk]

I think Humans and Orcs need to just be isolated from the rest of the world and fight each other to death with sticks and stones ala Lord of the Flies. Watch as Azeroth as a whole prospers with the two gone.

Watch as the Burning Legion decimates Azeroth when two of the largest races, which have acted as the driving force of the Alliance and the Horde, are gone.

[Kaleredar]

The entirety of the horde isn't evil. The trolls, Tauren, Hordie Pandaren, Blood elves, and a chunk of the orcs are all pretty cool guys.

It's the forsaken and horde forces under Garrosh that are the evil ones.

Of course, seeing as the horde forces under garrosh and the forsaken represent the actual military fronts of the horde... well, you get the picture.

[Gothicshark]

The Forsaken was not a warlock race. Before WoW we hardly knew anything about the Forsaken. If anything, the orcs were the only race ever to have been assosiated with warlocks at that point. And goblins for the Alliance? What is this utterly nonsense, and what is this "original plan"? Also, the Forsaken were never supposed to have been an Alliance race, and neither were the Night Elves supposed to be a Horde race. And Theramore was never an invasion point either, Jaina and her followers constructed that port before they even knew that the Horde was going to settle down in Kalimdor.

Chris Metzen stated in the November 2003 issue of Blizzard Insider #15 that goblins were originally considered for the fourth Alliance race. But they were widespread as a neutral trading faction, so Gnomes became a better fit.

It was also an Interview with Cris Metzen where he stated originally they were going to do the Kingdom of Lordaeron as being still in the Alliance. And that the Night Elves sided with the Orcs. They Changed their minds early in the development.

[Haven]

Chris Metzen stated in the November 2003 issue of Blizzard Insider #15 that goblins were originally considered for the fourth Alliance race. But they were widespread as a neutral trading faction, so Gnomes became a better fit.

It was also an Interview with Cris Metzen where he stated originally they were going to do the Kingdom of Lordaeron as being still in the Alliance. And that the Night Elves sided with the Orcs. They Changed their minds early in the development.

That almost blew my mind.

[Sigmundo]

it's terrible to see so many people can't distinguish an evil culture from one with a bad leader

[Gothicshark]

it's terrible to see so many people can't distinguish an evil culture from one with a bad leader

I have to point this out, most of the player base would say that the Trolls are currently not evil. That the leadership and society of the trolls are no longer evil.

However when you look at the Forsaken and the Orcs you can say OMG the leadership of those factions have gone off the Deep end.

No the Horde is evil, in fact they have gotten so bad that the trolls look good. I could list out why this is the case but it would take weeks, and would be listing 75% of all the horde quests.

[Last Starfighter]

You also support him trying to kill Vol'jin? We all know he wants Sylvannas dead. How about him using Twilight Cult magics? Sending troops that are on his side to their death on purpose? How about his direct actions causing the mental instabilities of his own troops.

That's why he said "he is a proper badass". And he wants all out war. I agree completely. The shame of it all is that he is going to be removed/killed. I'd like for the horde to be evil. And for Vol'jin, Baine, and Sylvanas to see the light. Let the alli be good and the horde be bad.

And I would be in favor of killing Vol'jin. But that story has already been told. Vol'jin will be hiding in the shadows and shoot Garrosh through the heart with an arrow.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 07:28 AM ----------

You really don't get it. Garrosh is not a badass, he's a coward with serious daddy issues.

That's a copout. Prior to what is going on in MoP, Garrosh was a great wartime general. And wasn't afraid of an honorable death in Combat. He was fully prepared to fight Cairne, and even upped the stakes with having them fight to the death. And as we saw at Stonetalon Cairne was not right. Garrosh didn't order that innocent druids be killed. It was a rogue commander. Something has turned Garrosh into what he is today. What that is, who knows. We'll find out. But the whole "daddy issues" excuse is just a passive/aggressive stab at his character. But the reality is that it only strengthened him as a warrior.

[Justforthis123]

I think he's confused about Caine died and referencing that.

You all totally missed the point :P.

[Vasconcellos]

No the Horde is evil, in fact they have gotten so bad that the trolls look good.

Care to explain why the reference to the Darkspear Trolls? How are they remotely "evil"?

[Combooticus]

I make no bones when i say i wish the horde WAS flat out evil

I love to roleplay as the baddie i dont like this shade of grey that horde seems to be always in

I hate this noble savage with a heart of gold BS

I wanna conquer and pillage

[Venziir]

I make no bones when i say i wish the horde WAS flat out evil

I love to roleplay as the baddie i dont like this shade of grey that horde seems to be always in

I hate this noble savage with a heart of gold BS

I wanna conquer and pillage

Shame it's not '96 then.

[Grimfrost]

I don't think you can call the tauren evil (besides grimtotems, they're not my favorite friends). Hellscream is completely insane which makes the horde seem worse

[Venziir]

That's why he said "he is a proper badass". And he wants all out war. I agree completely. The shame of it all is that he is going to be removed/killed. I'd like for the horde to be evil. And for Vol'jin, Baine, and Sylvanas to see the light. Let the alli be good and the horde be bad.

And I would be in favor of killing Vol'jin. But that story has already been told. Vol'jin will be hiding in the shadows and shoot Garrosh through the heart with an arrow.

---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 07:28 AM ----------

That's a copout. Prior to what is going on in MoP, Garrosh was a great wartime general. And wasn't afraid of an honorable death in Combat. He was fully prepared to fight Cairne, and even upped the stakes with having them fight to the death. And as we saw at Stonetalon Cairne was not right. Garrosh didn't order that innocent druids be killed. It was a rogue commander. Something has turned Garrosh into what he is today. What that is, who knows. We'll find out. But the whole "daddy issues" excuse is just a passive/aggressive stab at his character. But the reality is that it only strengthened him as a warrior.

We clearly saw in Warsong Hold that he had no idea of how to handle anything. He couldn't keep the Nerubians out, couldn't reclaim his original landing point, and he couldn't even secure a route for supplies, which Saurfang pointed out. Oh and the druids that Cairne accused Garrosh of mudering were not the druids from Stonetalon - at that point Cairne was already dead.

And he had daddy issues back in TBC, so it's hardly a stab at his character. And what strengthened him was that he suddenly realised, that instead of having a father for a monster, he was suddenly the son of the chosen one - which was just moronic.

[Jediguy]

Which is to say: they are still the same scum who clear-cut primeval forest, violate the dead, and pollute pristine waters with oil rigs, while prattling on about honor and glory and whatever. The difference is that they can't hide behind a reasonable leader now.

Still a step ahead of your precious Alliance whose Dwarves encroach on Horde land and defile the earth in their incessant digging for artifacts, Gnomes who pollute entire cities, humans who backstab members of their own Alliance, Worgen who have a history of abandoning their allies in their time of need, and Night Elves whose arrogance cursed Darkshore.

[Talen]

Still a step ahead of your precious Alliance whose Dwarves encroach on Horde land and defile the earth in their incessant digging for artifacts, Gnomes who pollute entire cities, humans who backstab members of their own Alliance, Worgen who have a history of abandoning their allies in their time of need, and Night Elves whose arrogance cursed Darkshore.

That is one way of seeing things. Wrong, and highly skewed but still one way of seeing things. Even accepting what you have said on face value, what you are saying is that....at its worst....the Alliance is just as bad as the Horde but by ignoring little details such as intent, scale and context you end up glorifying the Horde.

The Gnomes polluted their city...a strange viewpoint...out of necessity and mostly accidentally.
Goblins pollute simply because they don't care and it is cheaper not to worry about it....and so end up spoiling and polluting huge tracts of land and poisoning all life as a result.
The Orcs polluted their city to the point where it is uninhabitable because they value military strength over having someplace to live, especially in the time frame of a war THEY started.
The Forsaken pollute their lands because it is the most expedient way to remove their enemies....again in conflicts THEY started.

Scale. Context. Intent. You overlook all these.

They blew up Theramore - THEN she became head of the Kirin Tor, thus leader of Dalaran. And no, she didn't allow the Horde to stay, she allowed the neutral Sunreavers to stay. And she certainly didn't ask the Sunreavers to leave, she attacked them and imprisoned them, and slaughtered their dragonhawks so they couldn't even escape. Tsk tsk.

No.

She asked Aethas, leader of the Sunreavers, to leave. He, as leader, refused. At which point the Dragon hawks were placed in an enchanted sleep so the Sunreavers could not escape to cause trouble and Jaina went around teleporting everyone else to the Violet Hold...killing some of those who fought back and attacked her. Most Sunreavers went peacefully.

EJL

[Jediguy]

That is one way of seeing things. Wrong, and highly skewed but still one way of seeing things.

Kinda like the person I responded to.

Even accepting what you have said on face value, what you are saying is that....at its worst....the Alliance is just as bad as the Horde

Only if you assume Alliance wrongs weren’t worse than Horde wrongs.

but by ignoring little details such as intent, scale and context you end up glorifying the Horde.

Let’s see, then.

The Gnomes polluted their city...a strange viewpoint...out of necessity and mostly accidentally.

You talk about scale, but here the Gnomes are responsible for pollution on a scale unseen by any other race. Good job!

Goblins pollute simply because they don't care and it is cheaper not to worry about it and so end up spoiling and polluting huge tracts of land and poisoning all life as a result.

Hey, we Goblins happen to enjoy living in a more… industrial… environment! You say “pollution;” we say “progress!”

The Orcs polluted their city to the point where it is uninhabitable because they value military strength over having someplace to live,

Huh, I guess you haven’t been to Orgrimmar lately; it’s looking better than ever! We even have a river running through it, with indigenous cactuses and trees all around! Uninhabitable my hide…

especially in the time frame of a war THEY started.

You encroach on Horde land and burn our towns, but we started it. Huh, funny how that works out.

The Forsaken pollute their lands because it is the most expedient way to remove their enemies....again in conflicts THEY started.

Correction: The Forsaken use plague against their enemies. This is something quite different from pollution (there are no smoke stacks, oil rigs, etc.). And no, the Forsaken didn’t start the conflict. It started back in the third war with Grand Marshal Garithos trying to remove the original citizens of Lordaeron from their own lands because he didn’t approve of their current status as undead. Sylvanas clearly describes the problem: The Alliance does not recognize the Forsaken citizens’ rights to their own land! That land belongs to the citizens of Lordaeron, now and forever. It does not belong to the citizens of Stormwind, Ironforge, Darnassus, the Exodar, Gnomeregan, or even Gilneas (who hid behind their precious wall until it crumbled down). The Alliance are not only encroaching on Horde land in Alterac Valley nearby, but upon Lordaeron territory as well. Alliance are trying to spread like a plague; ironic that the Forsaken have concocted their own plague to use against the would-be trespassers. You don't like how plague tastes? Then go away.

[Kioshi]

Everytime I see a topic like this I see people say this.

"This is World of Lovecraft, not World of Warcraft, npc should not be killing npc, they should be making love, why can't we make love. War should not have any killing. when we goto war in Iraq no one dies, they just go make love and shake hands. Hitler didn't die, we just went to Germany and huged him which made him feel better so everything is okay. War is another word for Love."

If you don't like death in a war game you are in the wrong game, I think Hello Kity Island adventure is the game for you.

[Tommo]

Would it really be an awful thing to have an evil faction anyway? It is a fantasy game after all, more poisoning of the soup imo.

[VileGenesis]

I make no bones when i say i wish the horde WAS flat out evil

I love to roleplay as the baddie i dont like this shade of grey that horde seems to be always in

I hate this noble savage with a heart of gold BS

I wanna conquer and pillage

Damn good thing that people with your opinion arent on the dev team then, Warcraft as a story has never been black and white, not since the days of the burning legion invasion and even then it was mostly races with conflicting views.

I support war, war makes for intresting story. But what I really hope they stay far away from is making one faction evil by nature, sure the forsaken are pretty damn close to it :P But even so, the races of azeroth struggling to find their place is far more compelling, and anyone with a family is going to have a hard time being "evil" The horde is a society, not a faction, not an army, its a people.

Organizations can be evil, kings and leaders can be evil, but a living breathing people with children, wives and husbands, farms and merchants, is not evil, and can never be, as these things morally and directly hinder evil as a concept.

Saurfang, one of the most influential horde figures of all time, IMHO, is what the true horde should be about, strenght, honor and pride.

Garrosh is all about strenght, and nothing else, I doubt he even knows what he is fighting for anymore, but has has gone so far off the deep end that he has to keep going.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 05:55 PM ----------

Would it really be an awful thing to have an evil faction anyway? It is a fantasy game after all, more poisoning of the soup imo.

Yes it would be, there are billions of generic fantasy games with evil factions already out there. Having them playable isnt always a good thing, I for one think that one of WoWs strenghts is that the evil is never a playable race, its something both sides face in one way or another.

in MoP alot of the evil you are faced with, is the consequence of your own actions, the questioning of your own decisions. THAT is good storytelling.

[Verdugo]

Damn good thing that people with your opinion arent on the dev team then, Warcraft as a story has never been black and white, not since the days of the burning legion invasion and even then it was mostly races with conflicting views.

I support war, war makes for intresting story. But what I really hope they stay far away from is making one faction evil by nature, sure the forsaken are pretty damn close to it :P But even so, the races of azeroth struggling to find their place is far more compelling, and anyone with a family is going to have a hard time being "evil" The horde is a society, not a faction, not an army, its a people.

Organizations can be evil, kings and leaders can be evil, but a living breathing people with children, wives and husbands, farms and merchants, is not evil, and can never be, as these things morally and directly hinder evil as a concept.

Saurfang, one of the most influential horde figures of all time, IMHO, is what the true horde should be about, strenght, honor and pride.

Garrosh is all about strenght, and nothing else, I doubt he even knows what he is fighting for anymore, but has has gone so far off the deep end that he has to keep going.

---------- Post added 2013-01-23 at 05:55 PM ----------



Yes it would be, there are billions of generic fantasy games with evil factions already out there. Having them playable isnt always a good thing, I for one think that one of WoWs strenghts is that the evil is never a playable race, its something both sides face in one way or another.

in MoP alot of the evil you are faced with, is the consequence of your own actions, the questioning of your own decisions. THAT is good storytelling.

That is the most disgustingly naive talk I have ever seen...