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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Oh this card... I'm more progressed than you (15/16H) and I agree with Hikashuri. We are fine. We're outshined by OP affliction locks and arcane mages, but that is being addressed in 5.2.
    so its ok for hunters to be out done in single target DPS, in AOE DPS and cleave DPS. Glad i am not your guild master who just accepts a player who likes being half assed.

    Its not just warlocks either like you seem to think. Mages, Warriors, DKs, and Warlocks all beat us in every aspect of the game. Soon with the cleave changes and other class changed you can add WW Monks and shamans to the list that will easily out do us on cleave fights as well as getting enough single target damage to easily over take hunters. I just think its funny how you seem to lose the fact that every class but hunters are getting massive changes that overall buff their classes in a PvE environment while hunters get a damn glyph change and a pet that is basically worthless.

    You yourself said you did testing and cannot get MM to do more damage because the spec itself is a pile of crap, changing the cast time of a shot you never want to hard cast is not going to help the spec.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    so its ok for hunters to be out done in single target DPS, in AOE DPS and cleave DPS. Glad i am not your guild master who just accepts a player who likes being half assed.

    Its not just warlocks either like you seem to think. Mages, Warriors, DKs, and Warlocks all beat us in every aspect of the game. Soon with the cleave changes and other class changed you can add WW Monks and shamans to the list that will easily out do us on cleave fights as well as getting enough single target damage to easily over take hunters. I just think its funny how you seem to lose the fact that every class but hunters are getting massive changes that overall buff their classes in a PvE environment while hunters get a damn glyph change and a pet that is basically worthless.

    You yourself said you did testing and cannot get MM to do more damage because the spec itself is a pile of crap, changing the cast time of a shot you never want to hard cast is not going to help the spec.
    You still miss the point dude we got some QOL changes that were needed and as Bashiok said More changes are coming So wait until 5.2 is done and then if you feel hunters were left out then go ahead and QQ..But until then patience!

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Troyster View Post
    You still miss the point dude we got some QOL changes that were needed and as Bashiok said More changes are coming So wait until 5.2 is done and then if you feel hunters were left out then go ahead and QQ..But until then patience!
    guess you don't remember that blizz thought hunters were "fine" after 5.1 hit then they have to hot buff us just to get us into raids.

  4. #24
    You didn't include Weapon DPS.

    That's a pretty big one for hunters and it's a stat that casters don't have.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troyster View Post
    You still miss the point dude we got some QOL changes that were needed and as Bashiok said More changes are coming So wait until 5.2 is done and then if you feel hunters were left out then go ahead and QQ..But until then patience!
    Bashiok said what? Was this about the Hunter class specifically?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-22 at 02:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    You didn't include Weapon DPS.

    That's a pretty big one for hunters and it's a stat that casters don't have.
    Shit tons of SP from theirs.
    I also compared to a Fury Warrior. Fury Warriors have actual weapon DPS as well (and are, if anything, more reliant on it than Hunters).

  6. #26
    Personal attacks are uncalled for.
    Regardless, Nemesis, you have to stop. You're such a negative-nancy, doomsaying every single post you do, and it's just not true.
    Blizzard isn't going to fix what isn't broken - and your only argument that hunters are broken, is that half the other classes does better DPS than a hunter.
    Do you know what that makes hunters? Balanced. In the middle of the pack. We're not the lowest, we're not the highest. We're right where every other class should be. When your only argument that hunters are broken is that we're not more powerfull than other classes who clearly ARE broken (cough lock cough mages cough), you really fall flat on your face, because that's no argument at all.

    Let's look at a few reasons why hunters has earned their raid spots this tier:
    The only fight where hunters has been at a (severe) disadvantage that no other class has faced:
    Protectors heroic (due to our pets effectively making us do 20% less damage with the buff than any other class).
    That's it. Any other fight, hunters has been at no worse disadvantage than any other class. Has other classes had more advanages, like on WOTE where multidotters reigned supreme? Sure. Was hunters any worse than a melee on that fight? Not at all. Hunters could even dance with melee if wanted and gain the same DPS boost. Most guilds chose not to, though as hunters are a ranged class, and ranged dps were far superior to melee dps.
    Along with that, mobility (and the fact that hunters now have a passive dmg reduction talent), makes hunters excellent for fights like Vizier (hardest this tier if we include prenerf state), Sha of fear (platforms, dodging dread spray and soaking orbs), Tsulong (hunting adds in the night phase), Garalon (Kiting pheromones with no downtime), Lei shi (get away damage) etc.
    Hunters AOE is also more potent than most other classes, no matter what people here keep claiming. This is a log from my first sha of fear kill (and before people point out the difference in dps between me and kayman, look at the uptime. I was hiding on platforms for the majority of phase 1, doing no damage while waiting for the next team, getting a 81% uptime. Kayman had almost 100%. I'd have done the same DPS as him if I hadn't been "following tactics"): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1620&e=2838

    Top 5 - mage, hunter, hunter, hunter, elemental shaman. Our tactic for adds was mage's nuking down adds untill 3 came at a time (everyone else throwing their dots up for a global, no actual nuke), then have hunters/ele shaman join in, along with obvious cleave damage.

    Add on top of this that the only class hunter's share their armor with is Enhancement shamans, and ranged weapons only being usefull for hunters, any 25 man roster should have had space for two. Would they get taken for every fight? Probably not. You're not going to want to bring 2 windwalker monks many places, though, nor would you want 2 shadow priests on a singletarget fight.
    Are hunters doing a shitton better than in Dragon soul? Oh yea. You had no reasons to take a hunter to Yorsahj (minimum range making it a risky ordeal with the red globule), Ultraxion, Warmaster or Spine - as literally any class apart from a boomkin did more dps on ultraxion (but brought a tranq), any melee/multidotter would do thousands more on warmaster, and hunters were severely lacking in burst. That's 50% of a tier. This time around, there's ONE fight out of 16. That's 6% of a tier.
    Not to mention that "hotfix"-buffs to make hunters even more viable (through full mobility by removal of aspect) came BEFORE progress was over, instead of AFTER progress was over.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Personal attacks are uncalled for.
    Regardless, Nemesis, you have to stop. You're such a negative-nancy, doomsaying every single post you do, and it's just not true.
    Blizzard isn't going to fix what isn't broken - and your only argument that hunters are broken, is that half the other classes does better DPS than a hunter.
    Do you know what that makes hunters? Balanced. In the middle of the pack. We're not the lowest, we're not the highest. We're right where every other class should be. When your only argument that hunters are broken is that we're not more powerfull than other classes who clearly ARE broken (cough lock cough mages cough), you really fall flat on your face, because that's no argument at all.

    Let's look at a few reasons why hunters has earned their raid spots this tier:
    The only fight where hunters has been at a (severe) disadvantage that no other class has faced:
    Protectors heroic (due to our pets effectively making us do 20% less damage with the buff than any other class).
    That's it. Any other fight, hunters has been at no worse disadvantage than any other class. Has other classes had more advanages, like on WOTE where multidotters reigned supreme? Sure. Was hunters any worse than a melee on that fight? Not at all. Hunters could even dance with melee if wanted and gain the same DPS boost. Most guilds chose not to, though as hunters are a ranged class, and ranged dps were far superior to melee dps.
    Along with that, mobility (and the fact that hunters now have a passive dmg reduction talent), makes hunters excellent for fights like Vizier (hardest this tier if we include prenerf state), Sha of fear (platforms, dodging dread spray and soaking orbs), Tsulong (hunting adds in the night phase), Garalon (Kiting pheromones with no downtime), Lei shi (get away damage) etc.
    Hunters AOE is also more potent than most other classes, no matter what people here keep claiming. This is a log from my first sha of fear kill (and before people point out the difference in dps between me and kayman, look at the uptime. I was hiding on platforms for the majority of phase 1, doing no damage while waiting for the next team, getting a 81% uptime. Kayman had almost 100%. I'd have done the same DPS as him if I hadn't been "following tactics"): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1620&e=2838

    Top 5 - mage, hunter, hunter, hunter, elemental shaman. Our tactic for adds was mage's nuking down adds untill 3 came at a time (everyone else throwing their dots up for a global, no actual nuke), then have hunters/ele shaman join in, along with obvious cleave damage.

    Add on top of this that the only class hunter's share their armor with is Enhancement shamans, and ranged weapons only being usefull for hunters, any 25 man roster should have had space for two. Would they get taken for every fight? Probably not. You're not going to want to bring 2 windwalker monks many places, though, nor would you want 2 shadow priests on a singletarget fight.
    Are hunters doing a shitton better than in Dragon soul? Oh yea. You had no reasons to take a hunter to Yorsahj (minimum range making it a risky ordeal with the red globule), Ultraxion, Warmaster or Spine - as literally any class apart from a boomkin did more dps on ultraxion (but brought a tranq), any melee/multidotter would do thousands more on warmaster, and hunters were severely lacking in burst. That's 50% of a tier. This time around, there's ONE fight out of 16. That's 6% of a tier.
    Not to mention that "hotfix"-buffs to make hunters even more viable (through full mobility by removal of aspect) came BEFORE progress was over, instead of AFTER progress was over.
    you forgot the Spiritbinder buff, the H Stone guards buff, the Sekzeer buff, the Titan gas buff, and every other buff with exception to garalon and elegon not working for hunter pets. Nearly every raid mechanic "buff" effects hunters 20-60% less then every other class because of it not going to pets. either you are ignorant or blind to that fact that on every fight with a mechanical buff it makes hunters less powerful then every other class.

    Even on protectors its only a 20% nerf if you are not BM if you are BM its a 60% nerf to the buff. Hunters are not balanced when more the half the classes out clas them in every aspect of the game, having 5 classes easily better in AoE single target and cleave damage doesn't make thoes classes OP it makes hunters weak. Every class but hunters have something they excel at, there is currently NOTHING that warrents bringing a hunter over any other class in this tier other then handing them loot instead of sharding it.

    Its not ebing a doomsayer its saying what is happening in game right now. I'm not saying hunters should be OP, but when there is more then 100k DPS in the top ranking hunter and a top ranking mage warlock warrior or any other class there is a problem in the classes. When 2 classes are in a raid for ranged DPS and one does 80k DPS and is a top 25 parse and another is 180k DPS and isn't a top 200 parse and both are effected by the same mechanics there is something fucking wrong with the balance of the game.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    you forgot the Spiritbinder buff, the H Stone guards buff, the Sekzeer buff, the Titan gas buff, and every other buff with exception to garalon and elegon not working for hunter pets. Nearly every raid mechanic "buff" effects hunters 20-60% less then every other class because of it not going to pets. either you are ignorant or blind to that fact that on every fight with a mechanical buff it makes hunters less powerful then every other class.
    Fine. You can't take a hint. Let's dance, then:
    During progress, there was no reason to put a hunter inside on spiritbinder. Multidot classes were far superior, and hunters had far superior singletarget damage to most of them as BM in that gear. Thus, you should never have been concerned with the buff at all. If you were sent inside, it means your raidleader was following some kind of sub-optimal tactic. Even now, if you have a BM hunter, you should be treating them as melee and not sending them inside.

    On stoneguards, hunters are the only class who can keep full dps uptime while stacking up the tiles on the floor, and still maintain a great part of their damage if the bosses gets out of range, along with a multitude of cooldowns to help make it even easier (disengage breaking the snare, deterrencing cobalt bombs, etc). While the buff might not affect the pets, why the fuck do you even remotely care about the damage you can do there, when your job should obviously be lighting up the tiles? That's like a shadow priest complaining that he can't do much damage to the adds on windlord, when his job is to mass dispell their buffs. Nobody gives a damn, that's not your job. You were designed for something else that is far more important.

    Shek'zeer, you're completly wrong. It is not a damage buff that makes your damage "scale" with the amount of damage you do, it scales with your attacks (notice he "chance on hit"). Which means that a hunter, who mainly uses auto shots and instant casts, will gain far more from the buff (if utilised correct) than any caster.
    Add the fact that survival mastery benefits the buff on TOP of this, and you've actually managed to find a buff where hunters are AHEAD of every other class, in terms of benefit.

    I'll give you titan gas. I forgot about that. Been spending so much time aoe'ing and soaking rage sparks (that hunters are godly for, due to burst-aoe and 1 min deterrence) that it slipped my mind .

    Even on protectors its only a 20% nerf if you are not BM if you are BM its a 60% nerf to the buff. Hunters are not balanced when more the half the classes out clas them in every aspect of the game, having 5 classes easily better in AoE single target and cleave damage doesn't make thoes classes OP it makes hunters weak. Every class but hunters have something they excel at, there is currently NOTHING that warrents bringing a hunter over any other class in this tier other then handing them loot instead of sharding it.
    It's far less as survival anyway, like 12-13% or so. But yea, why do you even bring BM up? Obviously, you're gonna change spec when one is stronger than the others. If you don't, then we can compare you to a rogue that refuses to play anything but combat, even though assasination is far stronger on singletarget fights. The reason you feel you're falling so far behind on protectors is because everyone else is doing a fuckton of useless AOE damage, I would advice you to put your protectors logs into http://toprealm.fr/Truedps.html and see how much "usefull" dps most people has. I only think it works for the first phase, mind, but you get the idea anyway. I'm usually in the top 3, behind our warlock and our tank only (and our tank's doing double the dps of half the raid due to vengeance).

    You have to face the fact that some classes are brought for their dps potential (Warlocks, mages), while other classes are brought for their utility. Hunters have ALWAYS been an "utility" class. It used to be kiting and add-control that was a hunters strength, now it's become mobility. Having five out of eleven classes ahead of us MEANS we're balanced. It means we are what they should be aiming for. If you can't get the concept of basic grade-school math into your head (the middle of 1 and 11 is 6, meaning 5 is higher, 5 is lower than 6), I don't know how you think you have anything to say here.

    I'm going to repeat it again:
    If 5 classes are stronger and 5 classes are weaker than hunters, it means we're right in the middle. We should not recieve buffs or nerfs. We're in a far better place than many other specs damage wise, and our utility for lots of encounters are great too. The outliers are warriors (brings a raid cooldown AND good dps), mages (DPS), and warlocks (DPS). Those 3 are in for a nerf-hammering at some point.


    Its not ebing a doomsayer its saying what is happening in game right now. I'm not saying hunters should be OP, but when there is more then 100k DPS in the top ranking hunter and a top ranking mage warlock warrior or any other class there is a problem in the classes. When 2 classes are in a raid for ranged DPS and one does 80k DPS and is a top 25 parse and another is 180k DPS and isn't a top 200 parse and both are effected by the same mechanics there is something fucking wrong with the balance of the game.
    There's no issue. Hunters excell at some things, other classes excells at others. As hunters "utility" is not measured in DPS or raid cooldowns, but rather, in personal sacrifise in order to carry the raid (kiting pheromones, lighting up tiles, deterrence soaking hits from lose adds/bosses, slowing, CC'ing), you'll see hunters behind on worldoflogs. Because thats not what we excell at.

    And with that, I'm giving you a warning - I'm getting sick and tired of you constantly posting negative bull about the class, thinking your opinions are the only ones that matters, constantly arguing the same moot points, and disregarding anything that anyone else says. Either you start taking part in the conversations and think about the responses you get, then answering them, or you can leave the discussion entirely when you've effectively turned yourself into a parrot, repeating the same thing over and over.

    TL;DR -

    If hunters are below 5 classes, it means we're above 5, and in the middle. Blizz ain't gonna fix what ain't broken, and hunters aren't anymore.
    Different classes excell at different things. Hunters strong points can't be measured in DPS, while mages and warlocks can. Therefore, hunters are behind if you're too dumb to understand how a raid functions.

  9. #29
    Hunters seem to do fine in 25-man. Not so much in 10-man where a single lackluster DPS can make the whole encounter fail.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Hippo View Post
    Hunters seem to do fine in 25-man. Not so much in 10-man where a single lackluster DPS can make the whole encounter fail.
    Right, because 25 man raids have never had a DPS check ever. That would just be silly.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Are hunters doing a shitton better than in Dragon soul? Oh yea.
    I agree on some qol like minimum range or running (bad trade for having to spam buttons every second tho). I'd disagree if you compare to other classes.
    When we got fixed, SV was at the top. Only some casters and rogues with their legendaries could do better but that's an item problem and not class problem. The only fight we were bad was spine but anyone not a resto shaman, rogue or mage was. And just like it is in mop, we couldn't follow multidotters on madness.
    Yor'sahj had an adjusted hitbox so that we could stand under his legs. Zon'ozz however didn't and was a big problem on dark/shadow phase.

    At the start of DS it was sad for anyone who wasn't a rogue or mage. It's only thanks to nagging that we and other classes got fixed.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by StijnDP View Post
    I agree on some qol like minimum range or running (bad trade for having to spam buttons every second tho). I'd disagree if you compare to other classes.
    When we got fixed, SV was at the top. Only some casters and rogues with their legendaries could do better but that's an item problem and not class problem. The only fight we were bad was spine but anyone not a resto shaman, rogue or mage was. And just like it is in mop, we couldn't follow multidotters on madness.
    Yor'sahj had an adjusted hitbox so that we could stand under his legs. Zon'ozz however didn't and was a big problem on dark/shadow phase.

    At the start of DS it was sad for anyone who wasn't a rogue or mage. It's only thanks to nagging that we and other classes got fixed.
    Before the 25 man yorsahj nerf, the hitbox wasn't fixed. That only took a week though, so most people didn't experience it. 90% sure you couldn't cleave off of him with multishots before that either.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post

    TL;DR -

    If hunters are below 5 classes, it means we're above 5, and in the middle. Blizz ain't gonna fix what ain't broken, and hunters aren't anymore.
    Different classes excell at different things. Hunters strong points can't be measured in DPS, while mages and warlocks can. Therefore, hunters are behind if you're too dumb to understand how a raid functions.
    you are wrong on many of you points, but its not like it matters to you, your own sig says you want to change classes.... i just wonder what your excuse is going to be when 5.2 hits and we are right back at the bottom like we were when MOP launched.

    Oh please do tell what is it hunters can do better then anyone else that actually matters... You said we are good soakers on will, yet warlocks can do it while doing more then double our damage, rogues can out damage us and soak spars more often... There is NOTHING currently in game that a hunter can do better then any other class that actually matters.

    Oh an warlocks can light tiles and do more damage then a hunter so your idea of making a hunter simply just light tiles because the mechanics of the fight were built poorly is no excuse. Yes there are classes better suited for down down on spirit binder, but not every 10m has the comp capable of stacking just those classes, still no excuse for lack of correct development of raid mechanics. Infact out of every fucked up fight they only went out of their way to fix 1 of them, which means they know its a problem they just didn't give a fuck on the other fights. You mention the posion buff for empress, i am aware it procs off everything your character does, however every single other class in the game has more ways to proc that buff, if they made it so the pet could proc it, then it would equal hunters out.

    But like i said you sig shows you are wanting to change to a class thats not as weak as a hunter. If hunters were "fine" as you claim why do you want to play the OP warlock other then its an easy way to do more damage with less skill needed?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    you are wrong on many of you points, but its not like it matters to you, your own sig says you want to change classes.... i just wonder what your excuse is going to be when 5.2 hits and we are right back at the bottom like we were when MOP launched.

    But like i said you sig shows you are wanting to change to a class thats not as weak as a hunter. If hunters were "fine" as you claim why do you want to play the OP warlock other then its an easy way to do more damage with less skill needed?
    Did you ever even stop to think those might be the classes he is working on recruiting? Or are you really just that dense?

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    you are wrong on many of you points, but its not like it matters to you, your own sig says you want to change classes.... i just wonder what your excuse is going to be when 5.2 hits and we are right back at the bottom like we were when MOP launched.

    Oh please do tell what is it hunters can do better then anyone else that actually matters... You said we are good soakers on will, yet warlocks can do it while doing more then double our damage, rogues can out damage us and soak spars more often... There is NOTHING currently in game that a hunter can do better then any other class that actually matters.

    Oh an warlocks can light tiles and do more damage then a hunter so your idea of making a hunter simply just light tiles because the mechanics of the fight were built poorly is no excuse. Yes there are classes better suited for down down on spirit binder, but not every 10m has the comp capable of stacking just those classes, still no excuse for lack of correct development of raid mechanics. Infact out of every fucked up fight they only went out of their way to fix 1 of them, which means they know its a problem they just didn't give a fuck on the other fights. You mention the posion buff for empress, i am aware it procs off everything your character does, however every single other class in the game has more ways to proc that buff, if they made it so the pet could proc it, then it would equal hunters out.

    But like i said you sig shows you are wanting to change to a class thats not as weak as a hunter. If hunters were "fine" as you claim why do you want to play the OP warlock other then its an easy way to do more damage with less skill needed?

    My sig shows what now. You know nothing of our roster, maybe you should do your research before spewing false accusations . We have 3 mages, 1 warlock, 1 shadow priest who's starting his trial with us from next week (AKA zero, for now), 2 boomkins, 1 elemental shaman, and 3 hunters. I'm not recruiting shadow priests/warlocks because they're "overpowered", because they will be balanced. I'm recruiting them because those are the classes we don't HAVE at the moment. If I was recruiting just for OP-ness, you'd see my signature say "mages" too, wouldn't you ?

    Hunters has a higher mobility than anyone else. You can't dispute that. The only class that gets close are warlocks, but they do so at a severe punishment to their actual movement speed (moving as if they were dazed the entire time), and warlocks have none of the tools hunters have like Disengage, running through ice traps, aoe slow, etc...
    Warlocks are also far worse soakers than hunters, which you'd know if you thought about it. The only class that can soak every other set of sparks from rages are a hunter. No other class can do this over the entire fight. In 10 man, where you can easily CC 2 adds then aoe them, hunters can soak every single rage add.
    Rogue's can't take more than one spark at a time reliably, as they take damage from them. The reason they survive is feint. This also keeps them from dpsing, as they can't run back and forth between strengths and bosses, due to cleaves, and they won't get in any dances outside of "gas"-phases.
    Warlocks can light tiles, yes, but they won't be half as efficient as a hunter at it. Warlocks doesn't break their roots when the Guard gets close to exploding by disengaging, nor do they gain excessive speed boosts through a 25 second CD ability, or have a dash (through symbiosis). They can't damage the guards while out of range, while a BM hunter can.

    You're also completly ignorant about empress. What you're saying makes no sense.
    Looking at it, it would seem like any yellow hit (special attack) can make the poison fumes trigger, to make it fair for casters. This puts hunters in the same boat as every single other class, and ahead of most (Due to multishot being counted as multiple hits for special attacks).
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7470&e=8311 - this is the log from our empress kill yesterday. Obviously, things such as crits will skewer the damage DONE amount of poison fumes, but take a look at the hits done:
    Number one - A combat rogue, at 92, with blade flurry literally doubling every single attack he does.
    Number two - A survival hunter, at 85.
    Number three - A arcane mage, at 76.

    And downwards from there. Hunters have absolutly no disadvantage with the empress buff, but rather, an advantage if they play survival, due to the way AOE works for hunters (multi shots), and Surv mastery - along with the fact that while casters runs with a 1 sec GBC and casts that requires them to get out fewer attacks, hunters are literally throwing instants out all the time, triggering more procs (as evidenced by the log).

    As for Garajal, many melee has enough mobility to be better than a BM hunter with the clunky pet downstairs on garalon. Sending a hunter down should never be the go-to if you want to optimise. If a 10 man can't control their roster and have people play multiple classes/specs to help the raid, then they aren't even close to being hardcore enough to not take a hunter.

    In any case - you can make absolutly no assumptions about me from my sig, apart from the fact that I'm the raidleader of a top 100 25 man guild, and I have a hunter with 16/16 heroic progress . Our recruitment status has nothing to do with the state of any classes.


    In the end, I'm not denying that hunters aren't in top. What I *AM* denying, is the fact that hunters are "completly useless", and "beat by any other class". You argue that no hunter is to be found in top 10 ranks anywhere, well, there actually is a hunter now on blade lord 10.
    On the other hand, there's no windwalker monks, no ret paladins, two elemental shamans and shadow priests, no enhancements to be found anywhere. Hunters aren't top, but we aren't bottom. Hunters are in the middle, and thus we are worth bringing to a raid. If your 10 man guild does not agree, you've got a dumb raid leader.

  16. #36
    This thread just went all Poe's Law on us.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphorism View Post
    This thread just went all Poe's Law on us.
    just like most of the newer threads on the hunters subsection,

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    My sig shows what now. You know nothing of our roster, maybe you should do your research before spewing false accusations . We have 3 mages, 1 warlock, 1 shadow priest who's starting his trial with us from next week (AKA zero, for now), 2 boomkins, 1 elemental shaman, and 3 hunters. I'm not recruiting shadow priests/warlocks because they're "overpowered", because they will be balanced. I'm recruiting them because those are the classes we don't HAVE at the moment. If I was recruiting just for OP-ness, you'd see my signature say "mages" too, wouldn't you ?

    Hunters has a higher mobility than anyone else. You can't dispute that. The only class that gets close are warlocks, but they do so at a severe punishment to their actual movement speed (moving as if they were dazed the entire time), and warlocks have none of the tools hunters have like Disengage, running through ice traps, aoe slow, etc...
    Warlocks are also far worse soakers than hunters, which you'd know if you thought about it. The only class that can soak every other set of sparks from rages are a hunter. No other class can do this over the entire fight. In 10 man, where you can easily CC 2 adds then aoe them, hunters can soak every single rage add.
    Rogue's can't take more than one spark at a time reliably, as they take damage from them. The reason they survive is feint. This also keeps them from dpsing, as they can't run back and forth between strengths and bosses, due to cleaves, and they won't get in any dances outside of "gas"-phases.
    Warlocks can light tiles, yes, but they won't be half as efficient as a hunter at it. Warlocks doesn't break their roots when the Guard gets close to exploding by disengaging, nor do they gain excessive speed boosts through a 25 second CD ability, or have a dash (through symbiosis). They can't damage the guards while out of range, while a BM hunter can.

    You're also completly ignorant about empress. What you're saying makes no sense.
    Looking at it, it would seem like any yellow hit (special attack) can make the poison fumes trigger, to make it fair for casters. This puts hunters in the same boat as every single other class, and ahead of most (Due to multishot being counted as multiple hits for special attacks).
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7470&e=8311 - this is the log from our empress kill yesterday. Obviously, things such as crits will skewer the damage DONE amount of poison fumes, but take a look at the hits done:
    Number one - A combat rogue, at 92, with blade flurry literally doubling every single attack he does.
    Number two - A survival hunter, at 85.
    Number three - A arcane mage, at 76.

    And downwards from there. Hunters have absolutly no disadvantage with the empress buff, but rather, an advantage if they play survival, due to the way AOE works for hunters (multi shots), and Surv mastery - along with the fact that while casters runs with a 1 sec GBC and casts that requires them to get out fewer attacks, hunters are literally throwing instants out all the time, triggering more procs (as evidenced by the log).

    As for Garajal, many melee has enough mobility to be better than a BM hunter with the clunky pet downstairs on garalon. Sending a hunter down should never be the go-to if you want to optimise. If a 10 man can't control their roster and have people play multiple classes/specs to help the raid, then they aren't even close to being hardcore enough to not take a hunter.

    In any case - you can make absolutly no assumptions about me from my sig, apart from the fact that I'm the raidleader of a top 100 25 man guild, and I have a hunter with 16/16 heroic progress . Our recruitment status has nothing to do with the state of any classes.


    In the end, I'm not denying that hunters aren't in top. What I *AM* denying, is the fact that hunters are "completly useless", and "beat by any other class". You argue that no hunter is to be found in top 10 ranks anywhere, well, there actually is a hunter now on blade lord 10.
    On the other hand, there's no windwalker monks, no ret paladins, two elemental shamans and shadow priests, no enhancements to be found anywhere. Hunters aren't top, but we aren't bottom. Hunters are in the middle, and thus we are worth bringing to a raid. If your 10 man guild does not agree, you've got a dumb raid leader.
    Draco Thank you for all this clarification as i was about to write most of those stuff.Imo hunters are Balanced and as Ghostcrawler says and i completely agree with him is Dont compare your class with Op classes compare your class with balanced classes and i feel that hunters are among the best Hunters have an amazing arsenal traps/soaking/mobillity.You have 1 clunky Specc (MM) which i dont disagree that is lacking and i would truly love to see MM shine again but honestly Most of the classes have issues with some speccs.I can name you some of those(Unholy,Combat(appart from cleaving),Elemental,Arms,Priests have 1 fucking Dps specc and its crap!Destruction lock,Balance..Before you go on Raging Barrage Nemesis please sit down and think if your points are valid!Hunter would welcome a few buffs Idd but i have faith that 5.2 will bring more and im certain it will Even minor changes.So Be patient and let 5.2 finish!But honestly i doubt you will stop Since haters will always hate!

  19. #39
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    Apparently people forget historically how bad hunters scale until the first weapon upgrade of the second tier of raiding of the last 3 expansions.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    so its ok for hunters to be out done in single target DPS, in AOE DPS and cleave DPS. Glad i am not your guild master who just accepts a player who likes being half assed.

    Its not just warlocks either like you seem to think. Mages, Warriors, DKs, and Warlocks all beat us in every aspect of the game. Soon with the cleave changes and other class changed you can add WW Monks and shamans to the list that will easily out do us on cleave fights as well as getting enough single target damage to easily over take hunters. I just think its funny how you seem to lose the fact that every class but hunters are getting massive changes that overall buff their classes in a PvE environment while hunters get a damn glyph change and a pet that is basically worthless.

    You yourself said you did testing and cannot get MM to do more damage because the spec itself is a pile of crap, changing the cast time of a shot you never want to hard cast is not going to help the spec.
    I did no such thing

    We're fine. Don't worry man.

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