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  1. #1
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Blood DK- Why is Haste better then Dodge/Parry?

    Hey all. As a tank from other classes, I was taking a look at stat wieghts, and I see that Haste is below dodge/parry for DKs. This made me ponder why- for most of the other tanking classes, Druid, Paladin, and Monks, haste is one of the best stats for mitigation, simply because more haste = more resource (For druids, Crit>Haste, but haste is still pretty decent).

    Thus, this makes me wonder- for Blood DKs, where haste increases the number of Death Strikes over a fight, why is Haste valued lower then Dodge/Parry? (It especially confuses me since, from my understandings, DKs in general scale VERY well with haste)

    EDIT- I noticed I put the wrong title, meant, why is Haste WORSE then Dodge/Parry.
    Last edited by Raugnaut; 2013-01-20 at 06:42 AM. Reason: Woops
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  2. #2
    Where did you see that haste>avoidance? That may be true for dps only, but not for survivability. Only go for haste if you are putting dps over survivability as a tank. Generally Haste doesn't scale exrtremely well as blood. Even with a full haste build you'd be hard pressed to even get ~1s taken off your overall rune regen, and your t75 talent doesn't benefit from haste so your overall rune regen isn't even that affected. Even if it did give a decent DS/min increase, when we use DS matters far more than how often.

    Long story short, only go for haste if you want to trade survivability for damage.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    for most of the other tanking classes, Druid, Paladin, and Monks, haste is one of the best stats for mitigation
    Haste is one of the worst stat for mitigation for Paladin tanks. It's just that, even being "one of the worst stat", it's still a decent stat and increases dps a lot. You lose few survavibility and increase your dps a lot, good deal.
    Also, it makes the incoming damages less spiky.
    And it's basically the same reasons why palaprot/warprot want their hit/exp cap expertise. You lose a bit of survivability but increase your dps and prevent damage spikes.

  4. #4
    High Overlord Ikrekot's Avatar
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    Haste isn't bad for palaprot

    Haste
    increases your attack speed and, thanks to Sanctity of Battle, reduces the GCD of your core Holy Power generating abilities. Increasing Holy Power generation increases your survivability and threat by giving you more Holy Power to spend on Shield of the Righteous.

  5. #5
    I didn't say it was bad. I said it was one of the worst stat.
    If you want to maximize your survival, haste is behind everything (except for crit). Even hit/exp is behind mastery/parry/dodge as far as theoretical survival is concerned.
    It's still worth the survival loss since it prevents damage spikes and increase your dps. But it's a survival loss nonetheless.

  6. #6
    rewording. It's late and i'm bad at words when im tired lol

  7. #7
    i prefer haste over avoidance for raidtanking

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    Haste is one of the worst stat for mitigation for Paladin tanks. It's just that, even being "one of the worst stat", it's still a decent stat and increases dps a lot. You lose few survavibility and increase your dps a lot, good deal.
    .
    Sorry, but you couldnt be more wrong. Haste is the top prot paladin stat for survivability in ten mans after hit/exp. It beats out mastery, which is better then dodge/parry for survivability. Next time, dont spreed false info. Haste is amazing. Its most notable side effect is dps increase, but i dont know for blood dks. Only my prot paladin. Even paragons prot paladin haste stacks.

    I didn't say it was bad. I said it was one of the worst stat.
    If you want to maximize your survival, haste is behind everything (except for crit). Even hit/exp is behind mastery/parry/dodge as far as theoretical survival is concerned.
    It's still worth the survival loss since it prevents damage spikes and increase your dps. But it's a survival loss nonetheless.
    Still, oh so wrong. Hit/exp is THE stats recomended for prot paladins. Hit to 7.5% and exp to 15% But again, he wants to know for blood dks. If they are like prot paladins haste is best to build more shields faster from runes being off cd sooner. Flat out saying hit/exp is bad is just bad man. If you are a blood dk, get to 7.5% hit and 15% exp. You dont want your ds missing.
    Last edited by Zantos; 2013-01-20 at 08:57 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    It's still worth the survival loss since it prevents damage spikes and increase your dps. But it's a survival loss nonetheless.
    Not sure if you are talking about haste or accuracy here, but if you are talking about haste I have to disagree that it's "worth it". A solid argument can be made for hit/exp, but unless you are in an unrealistically low tank damage situation I wouldn't recommend haste for anything outside of non-standard situations (such as Lei Shi).

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Sorry, but you couldnt be more wrong. Haste is the top prot paladin stat for survivability in ten mans after hit/exp. It beats out mastery, which is better then dodge/parry for survivability. Next time, dont spreed false info. Haste is amazing. Its most notable side effect is dps increase, but i dont know for blood dks. Only my prot paladin. Even paragons prot paladin haste stacks.

    Still, oh so wrong. Hit/exp is THE stats recomended for prot paladins. Hit to 7.5% and exp to 15% But again, he wants to know for blood dks. If they are like prot paladins haste is best to build more shields faster from runes being off cd sooner. Flat out saying hit/exp is bad is just bad man. If you are a blood dk, get to 7.5% hit and 15% exp. You dont want your ds missing.
    Palprots are gearing for Hit/Exp > Haste exactly because it gives you more control, reduces spikes and increases dps. Look at some TC and you'll see that it is absolutely not the best gearing strategy to maximize survivability. Or just try both optimization (if you're overgearing the content you're facing, you can try it in Challenge Mode).
    But, eh, as you mentioned it's not the good place to discuss about this.
    I was just wanting to make clear that "best survivability stat" does not always means "best stat to aim for" in a raid environment nowadays. Most classes are not gearing toward Hit/Exp (and Haste) because it's the best survivability stat but because it prevents "bad rng"-deaths, gives more control to the player AND increases his dps.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    If you are a blood dk, get to 7.5% hit and 15% exp. You dont want your ds missing.

    A more clueless and false statement has never been spoken. DS missing doesn't hurt DK survivability, just DPS. You still get the heal, and the bubble.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    Not sure if you are talking about haste or accuracy here, but if you are talking about haste I have to disagree that it's "worth it". A solid argument can be made for hit/exp, but unless you are in an unrealistically low tank damage situation I wouldn't recommend haste for anything outside of non-standard situations (such as Lei Shi).
    Sorry, I was still talking about palprot (especially in a 10-man environment.) Most palprots are gearing to Haste nowadays, and it's not a bad choice since there's really few boss that are harmful for tanks right now (WotE, Sha of Fear. Lei Shi is a special case. Maybe Empress in p2). And even against Sha of Fear HM, you may need this additional dps to your first kills.
    I don't know for DK. (I shouldn't post on dk's forum since I don't know much about them, but I'm visiting your forum for the Solo Thread and wandering around. )

  13. #13
    I'm not sure why this is being derailed into a conversation about Haste for Prot Paladins, but take it to the Pally forums. They'll gladly tell you right from wrong.

    As far as DKs are concerned, I've been curious for awhile why Haste isn't viewed in a better light. As mentioned, the resource generation is going to be much faster, leading to more Death Strikes. I'd like to see some math, if any has been done on the subject.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    I'm not sure why this is being derailed into a conversation about Haste for Prot Paladins, but take it to the Pally forums. They'll gladly tell you right from wrong.

    As far as DKs are concerned, I've been curious for awhile why Haste isn't viewed in a better light. As mentioned, the resource generation is going to be much faster, leading to more Death Strikes. I'd like to see some math, if any has been done on the subject.
    Euliat has done some math, but let me put just how non-impactful haste is...

    I reforged/enchanted just to see what kind of numbers I could get. I put haste>mastery>everything else. I lost about 30% shield and only shaved .69 seconds off my rune regen. Remember, a lot of our generation comes from t75 talents, and that isn't affected by haste, so the .69 seconds is literally all you get for losing all that shield. Yes 0.69 seconds is a "quicker" death strike, but your shield will also last considerably shorter, meaning you will NEED the shortened time to react to the quicker loss of shield.

    Long story short: you just get so little rune regen per point of haste. dps values haste for reason other than rune regen. for example Frost values haste for KM procs in addition to rune regen. blood has no such mechanic (outside of SoB, and from euliats sims we can see that the overall mitigation from the SoB stacks gained from haste isn't worth it) so all we get is the not very potent rune regen.
    Last edited by Reniat; 2013-01-20 at 09:40 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    Remember, a lot of our generation comes from t75 talents, and that isn't affected by haste,
    Actually, they are affected by haste. More haste = more rune regeneration and scent of blood procs = more runic power = more rune strikes = more t75 procs.

    I'm not advocating going for haste or anything, but in general just about everything death knights have scale with haste.

  16. #16
    Well that's not exactly direct. If you want to go with that logic then AMS gives t75 procs as well. Not saying it isn't true, but the idea is that haste would otherwise scale OUTSIDE of the relative increase of the linear increase of overall resource generation. That's what i was trying to say with frost's KM mechanic. That's something outside of the linear resource model that is directly benefited by haste. For example, RC if they didn't compensate for haste. That would be something that would cause haste to increase t75 procs (by increasing proc value as opposed to proc frequency) outside of the resource scale.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    I put haste>mastery>everything else.
    No one is saying to do that. They're saying why not do Mastery>Haste>Dodge/Parry.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    No one is saying to do that. They're saying why not do Mastery>Haste>Dodge/Parry.
    My point was that even with that level of priority, I only got .69 seconds. A single avoided attack from avoidance gives you 1.8 seconds (boss swing timer).

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    My point was that even with that level of priority, I only got .69 seconds. A single avoided attack from avoidance gives you 1.8 seconds (boss swing timer).
    .69 seconds is a LOT more than you think it is. Do some math on how many more Death Strikes that is in a single 6 minute fight.

  20. #20
    DS/min doesn't mean anything. What matters is being able to recover from damage when it happens. Avoidance works for us in that it delays the damage we take, giving us time to either put up a shield or not take away the shield we have up currently. Haste works to simply shorten the gap between Death Strikes, which will reduce the chance that you'll be caught with your pants down in the first place. Without putting any numbers into it, haste actually would be REALLY strong. The issue is when we actually look at how much you get per point. That's where the comparison comes in. 0.69 seconds (again, that's putting haste at the top not after mastery) isn't exactly game breaking. The only time you would really benefit (outside of overall TDR) from haste is if you are rune starved and are able to react appropriately only because of the hastened rune regen, and with only .69 seconds that's a small chance to actually be impactful (again, outside of the obvious TDR).

    I'm sorry if i'm not making any sense. I'm not the best at getting my point across at 4:40 in the morning. I guess I'm just trying to say that if you are consistently being saved by .69 seconds, you probably aren't timing DS correctly. If you are timing DS correctly and still ending up rune starved, then you are taking a large amount of damage and not only should have a CD up, but are also likely taking enough damage that it would take more than .69 seconds to "fix". If I still am not clear, I apologize and I'll try again after some sleep lol.

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