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  1. #1

    You might as well bench your Lock in WoD if you do PvP without a healer

    Finally got a hold of beta on the 100 pvp realm...and man...was I disappointed.

    I've played Lock since late TBC and am an average pvper (both arenas and bgs). With the changes in WoD for casters, it's pretty grim for Locks doing duels, 2v2, and random bgs. I know the game in pvp isn't balanced around 1v1 or without heals, but this is probably the worst I've seen since Cata. With no fel flame and (for destro) all damage outside of conflag on a hard cast time, you can't generate embers nor do damage as filler with melee. From my testing, I think incinerate hits for at best 10% health? Chaos bolt crits for like 20k on targets with 300k health. Blood horror is at a 1 min cd, Pet Seduce on a 30 sec cd, and with 1 stun or instant fear talent row its near impossible to do any damage with targets attacking you. If you roll Afflic or Demo, your sustained damage is a LITTLE better, still can't use full rotation with channeling or long cast times, and your entire survivability revolves around drain life, which you will never get off with any target. Each class has about 3-4 cc types, even if you use the talent and glyph for drain life, you can't use it from their CC! KJC only lasts 8 sec on a 1 min cd. You won't kill anyone in 8 secs or get enough from drain life assuming you don't get locked.

    Every expansion is different. WotLK was all about burst around CC, with incinerate hitting for 30% health and using seduction and stuns at the right time, without a healer you could still survive long enough to damage around your cc. MoP was the opposite, where self heals outweighed cc and you had tons of instant damage abilities where it didn't matter lol. Cata was in between, where off healing sucked, but health pool was larger so damage was less around CC. However, you still had FEL FLAME! Both for damage and to build embers for destro. Now, you don't have any of that. Damage is so low for everyone (which if fine) but most classes have an instant cast heal or some kind of hot. Plus, melee is instant casts with plenty of gap closers. You mostly stand around in 2v2 or duels doing nothing but getting attacked.

    Maybe its only fair, considering how good MoP was for locks. I mean, MoP, mechanically speaking, was probably the most OP since SL/SL in TBC. So...I’m not complaining about the nerfs, I understand them, but BOTH damage percentage and mechanics are crazy stupid. Embers are still good for destro, but no way to generate them. Anyone else feel the same?

  2. #2
    Immortal Soisoisoi's Avatar
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    They did the same type of thing to all the classes.

  3. #3
    Warlocks are very balanced in PVP now, it's a great change from live.

    You just have to use your cc/kiting abilities if you want to be able to cast.

  4. #4
    The problem with locks in PVP right now stems more from damage then CC or self healing. That and mellee being a bit overturned. But damage is lower then it should be "especially Demo". So until locks get the PVE buffs needed PVP will have to suffer as well.

  5. #5
    Titan Nerraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crushima View Post
    Warlocks are very balanced in PVP now, it's a great change from live.

    You just have to use your cc/kiting abilities if you want to be able to cast.
    What cc/kiting abilities?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    They did the same type of thing to all the classes.
    I know that all casters across the board got rid of instants. However, it seems melee still can pretty much close the gap easily, and damage is so low between CC, that you don't really do any damage while casting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crushima View Post
    Warlocks are very balanced in PVP now, it's a great change from live.

    You just have to use your cc/kiting abilities if you want to be able to cast.
    I'm in total agreement that from MoP, we needed re-tuning, especially with instant fear, BH, stuns, and high damage fel flame for pvp. In WotLK, you could use your CC/kiting because damage was considerably higher. You catch someone in a fear and hit 30% health or more, plus there was no offhealing really for any class. (It didn't do very much) Now, all spells hit WAY lower percentage wise, and almost everyone can heal in some shape or form for a lot of off healing. Even with 1 fear, 4 sec BH, 1 3 sec stun, and pet cc, you simply are not going to kill anyone in that amount of time. That's what I'm mostly complaining about. I don't care about getting rid of instants. I actually really like WotLK style of damage. However, with Health pools increased and damaged lower, even stuff like KJC only lasting 8 sec and UR having 8 sec spell immunity, doesn't really do anything for the overall fight. Even if you get someone half health, with the amount of Defensives and offhealing that remains for classes, you have to rely in hard casting outside of your CCs. And it's currently sucking hardcore.
    That's honestly the problem to me.

  7. #7
    Cataclysm was the epitome of CC. Gameplay during Cata was literally 80% CC and 20% damage for Destro. Back then you actually had to rely on your tools actively to survive or get a kill. Healer not spending most of the time in organized casted chain CCs when you're going offensive? No kill. Enemies not cross-CC'd and kited when they go on you? No surviving.
    Now in WoD it seems like you just can't do anything about it. You literally do nothing. Warlocks aren't balanced, they have no CC/kiting abilities to even use properly. Sure MoP was filled with gimmicky mechanics and instant CCs, but WoD is in no way more skillful because you don't have the tools themselves to showcase any kind of skill to begin with.
    If you're taking damage then all you can do is react with a click of a button to activate a defensive cooldown. You cannot prevent damage by kiting around your opponent, you can only mindlessly mitigate it. Compare this to pre-MoP when you had to prevent the damage from getting t you in the first place to survive, and you see how much more skillful it was.
    Having access to only 1 snare that is at the same time your only instant cast, a resource generator, and a cast-speed buff isn't kiting. Having access to only one potent CC other than fear does not make it more skillful to CC your opponents, it just makes it more impossible. Overall less CC =/= more skill, it just makes it less reliable and actually promotes damage spam.
    Melee vs caster balance in WoD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9F0Ehgx_Q8

  8. #8
    "Warlocks based around self healing"...

    "Self healing only available to Destruction"
    - "I throw away all the rules of acceptable conduct during battle; near the ruptures I throw away all the accepted ideas of how the natural world is supposed to behave. Targeting isn’t even a consideration - I will be engaging my enemy at arm’s length."

  9. #9
    Yes it will suck until they change things dramatically, which will probably take at least months. I'm trying to decide if I should play a different class in the meanwhile or just not buy the expansion.

  10. #10
    Ironically, mages are fine. They kept more of the CC (Which they had more of to begin with), and they kept their mobility. I would be fine with their design intent if they were consistent, but apparently hunters and mages != casters in WoD. Also, with all the removal of the tools that ranged dps have, some mobility reduction for melee would be in order. Loads of mobility vs 0 mobility is going to bring problems sooner or later.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by JellyRollzz View Post
    I know that all casters across the board got rid of instants. ..
    Say what?

    Also, lol @ somebody proclaiming we just need to use CC/Kiting abilities to be able to cast. Made my day considering CC'ing is still subjected to DR and kiting a melee...lol. Comparing the beta to say, wotlk or TBC is like comparing day and night.

  12. #12
    Legendary! Gumboy's Avatar
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    Uh you are aware that that is exactly how it was back in the day, right? it wasn't just instant cc spam into wombo combos all day lol.
    You're a towel.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Moggie View Post
    Say what?

    Also, lol @ somebody proclaiming we just need to use CC/Kiting abilities to be able to cast. Made my day considering CC'ing is still subjected to DR and kiting a melee...lol. Comparing the beta to say, wotlk or TBC is like comparing day and night.
    How the heck do you expect to get casts off then...? That is what you're supposed to do, except we don't have the tools to do so. DRs are an integral part of this game and they have existed for some time.
    Melee vs caster balance in WoD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9F0Ehgx_Q8

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumboy View Post
    Uh you are aware that that is exactly how it was back in the day, right? it wasn't just instant cc spam into wombo combos all day lol.
    "back in the day" many classes were lucky to have even one way to stop a spell.

    You know how many tools a ret paladin had to stop a fear? One. HoJ. One way to stop a spell every 60 seconds.

    Now, taking ret as an example, now, they can stop 6 spells per minute. A six-fold increase.

    I don't think warlocks are weak. I'm not pining for buffs. But comparing it to "back in the day" is nonsense. Melee classes in vanilla had few ways to stop spells, and little mobility. Times have changed.

  15. #15
    I played only from BC, so I missed days when Fear had no diminishing returns. Must been great times

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    I played only from BC, so I missed days when Fear had no diminishing returns. Must been great times
    I miss when it didn't break on damage :P

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthaven- View Post
    "Warlocks based around self healing"...

    "Self healing only available to Destruction"
    I chuckled. I was amazed at Warlock's self healing in the beta. Take Harvest life and glyph drain life. That will heal about 50% of your health in 6 seconds. Use a healthstone along with that and you go 1% health to full health in less than 6 seconds. It's unreal.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Coffeh View Post
    I chuckled. I was amazed at Warlock's self healing in the beta. Take Harvest life and glyph drain life. That will heal about 50% of your health in 6 seconds. Use a healthstone along with that and you go 1% health to full health in less than 6 seconds. It's unreal.
    But nobody takes that talent/glyph combo for any form of competitive pvp plus harvest life was good in beta last time and they nerfed it so it never made it live. So I'm pretty sure that will be the case this time as well.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Coffeh View Post
    I chuckled. I was amazed at Warlock's self healing in the beta. Take Harvest life and glyph drain life. That will heal about 50% of your health in 6 seconds. Use a healthstone along with that and you go 1% health to full health in less than 6 seconds. It's unreal.
    I just doubt it will stay that way (if that's the case).

    Somehow it has to be competitive/ balanced around Dark Regen and Soul Leech, and the effectiveness of those talents has already been reduced (the overall effectiveness of those talents are already pretty bad).
    Blizzard is generally balancing talents around what they do versus each other (strict healing output/ effect), regardless of what you sacrifice to utilize it (dps up-time) - in most circumstances.


    Now, there's slight chance that the amount of PvE players that choose the other talents due to less dps-loss somehow are that many that it'll end up looking balanced on Blizzard end for that tier (as they just look at 'statistics'), even if there will be no real choice depending of what side of the game you're doing (PvE or PvP).

    (as if only option for PvP = Drain Life++ / Only options PvE : SL/ DR)


    I should mention the *0.8 effective healing rate for PvP (as of now) is in effect which will reduce Drain life ramp up time severely with the 'special' perk.

    Historically, we are not compensated in any way for higher and higher Battle Fatigue over the tiers which affects our self-sustainability severely for Life Taps - the increased healing we receive from better tiers of equipment scales negatively versus Life Taps and increased Battle Fatigue modifiers.
    Last edited by Nighthaven-; 2014-09-14 at 10:44 PM.
    - "I throw away all the rules of acceptable conduct during battle; near the ruptures I throw away all the accepted ideas of how the natural world is supposed to behave. Targeting isn’t even a consideration - I will be engaging my enemy at arm’s length."

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Crushima View Post
    Warlocks are very balanced in PVP now, it's a great change from live.

    You just have to use your cc/kiting abilities if you want to be able to cast.
    Go let a rogue or warrior sit on you and tell me how that works out.

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