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  1. #21
    Enhancement has consistently seen improvements made since I started playing them in late TBC. THe only real 'problem' you list that I agree with is the long ramp up time for the somewhat clunky aoe rotation, but you may or may not remember that we used to not really even have any AoE...so I'll take what we have over what we used to have. Could it get better? A little...but it could be a whole lot worse.

    Besides out AoE (which is actually kinda powerful on the right type of packs which sadly rarely exist) I don't think we have any real pressing PvE issues. Happier atm with enhancement (pve) than any other time in the years I have played it.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Buhrag View Post
    This is simply not true. You have to be able to equip an item to be able to transmogrify into it. We will only be able to transmog (as enhancement) the following
    Maces->Maces
    Maces->Axes
    Axes->Axes
    Axes->Maces
    Fists->Fists.

    I do agree that we need the capability to use swords, however. But until that time, even with the transmog changes we wont be able to look like Drek.
    o.0
    0.o
    0.0
    -_-
    T_T

    Really? Dang... I even started looking around for swords to mog. =,(

  3. #23
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruionmel View Post
    Here's my problem. You're 7th on the DPS charts and whining about how terrible your rotation. Who the hell cares if you're pulling good numbers? If Ele's rotation were 3x more complicated but I ranked in DPS where you currently do, I wouldn't be complaining. Because I'd actually be a good DPS spec.
    How about we stop using crap like simcraft before we go spouting off about who much better another spec is. Also last I checked elemental's only real weakness in PvE it's its single target. One of the most mobile range specs with a very strong aoe and strong burst, the multi-dotting isn't fantastically strong but it exists. Only real weakness is single target.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    How about we stop using crap like simcraft before we go spouting off about who much better another spec is. Also last I checked elemental's only real weakness in PvE it's its single target. One of the most mobile range specs with a very strong aoe and strong burst, the multi-dotting isn't fantastically strong but it exists. Only real weakness is single target.
    Multidotting doesn't exist, it's almost NEVER worth it, and on the fights where it is the benefit is super super slim. We are by far the worst ranged class when it comes to multidotting. Warlocks and hunters are also alot more mobile, even though warlocks top the charts on everything and got awesome multtingdotting tools, woopwoop.

    You're last sentence is correct though, that's our main issue atm.

    @OP
    I actually agree with the points you stated, specially the one about AoE. Even though it's our own "niche" i guess, it's pretty stupid how warriors can just bladestorm and dks can howling blast while we have to ramp it up for atleast 8 seconds before any major damage is happening.
    Last edited by Telefonorm; 2013-01-23 at 04:21 PM.

  5. #25
    Mechagnome Eruionmel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    How about we stop using crap like simcraft before we go spouting off about who much better another spec is. Also last I checked elemental's only real weakness in PvE it's its single target. One of the most mobile range specs with a very strong aoe and strong burst, the multi-dotting isn't fantastically strong but it exists. Only real weakness is single target.
    First, I use raidbots for determining DPS ranking. Second, LOL. That's like saying a class' only real weakness in PvP is not being able to damage players. What the hell do you think PvE IS? It's mostly single target. Sure, there's a couple AoEish fights where we aren't terrible, but we get completely hosed on every other fight.

    Multidotting is always a DPS loss as ele. Always. Our AoE is good. Our mobility is excellent. Our burst is run of the mill. Mages and hunters are always right up with me during the burst at the start of a fight. Our single target is mediocre, and our target switching is fucking abysmal. Overall, Ele is crap. And Enh is excellent.
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  6. #26
    ok, isnt ENH shaman like the best melee dps atm? im pretty sure they are last time i checked.

    Aside from the AOE which i think is ok just takes to long to ramp up, enh is fine in pve.

    they are not fine in pvp usually... our survivability has never really been all too good, with the pvp power healing nerf in 5.1 our healing from maelstrom is AWFUL beyond logic.

    our burst is fine with ascendance while sustained is pretty ok with unleashed fury and the class is fun as hell, whoever is saying the rotation is bad in anyway is worthy of laughs, the shit is almost as simple as wrath ret, but still has utility shit for most things in pvp(no earthen power!!!). Its enjoyable to actually press my buttons on my enh in pvp but they really need a buff to their healing/defense and they would seriously be 1 of the best all round melee specs to have fun with.

  7. #27
    PVE-wise, Enhance is fine, and a hell of a lot better than it's been since I started playing (towards the end of BC). Some examples:
    - Remember totem-twisting?
    - Remember using Magma Totem and Fire Nova on cooldown in single-target scenarios?
    - Remember armor penetration being on all of our gear, yet giving us only half the benefit that others got?
    - Remember caster main hands and hard-casting Lava Bursts? (I personally enjoyed this aspect, but a lot of people hated it)
    - Remember our only AoE being terrible Fire Novas off a stationary totem?

    I have only two wishes for the spec in PVE, and they're both very minor.
    1) I would like another attack to weave in to increase the skill cap (Primal Strike?).
    2) A weak point-blank AoE for soloing old instances. Magma totem doesn't count as a personal tag, making you ineligible for loot if you don't personally damage the mob, and most of those mobs tend to die to the initial Flame Shock hit. It's just annoying to have to kill a pack of 30 mobs one at a time.

  8. #28
    Blademaster MegaAverageGamers's Avatar
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    I have an idea it might have been said before Ofc but I'm gonna say it anyway, shaman was my first toon in vanilla and I still enjoy it today but anyway here's my ideas

    1, get rid of searing totem and tie searing flames to flametongue

    2, forget lava lash spreading flame shock and tie the spreading of it to fire nova

    3, how bout swords as someone has said, its not like lore plays a massive part in classes anymore I mean taurean paladins etc don't get me wrong I'm all for diversity in classes but swords would be cool beans for shamans don't you think

    Well that's my idea to clear up shamans a little I personally think they are good ideas, I'm guessing a lot of ppl won't haha anyway hope this helps the discussion
    Last edited by MegaAverageGamers; 2013-01-23 at 11:53 PM.

  9. #29
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruionmel View Post
    First, I use raidbots for determining DPS ranking. Second, LOL. That's like saying a class' only real weakness in PvP is not being able to damage players. What the hell do you think PvE IS? It's mostly single target. Sure, there's a couple AoEish fights where we aren't terrible, but we get completely hosed on every other fight.

    Multidotting is always a DPS loss as ele. Always. Our AoE is good. Our mobility is excellent. Our burst is run of the mill. Mages and hunters are always right up with me during the burst at the start of a fight. Our single target is mediocre, and our target switching is fucking abysmal. Overall, Ele is crap. And Enh is excellent.
    If all you are is a tunnel bot, sure only single target matters. If you've ever been a useful member in a raid team you are wrong though. What on earth is wrong with your target switching? Are you only counting with Unleashed Fury or something? Even then it's a timer game. Try playing most other specs and you would take that back.

    Guess what, being beaten by 2 specs doesn't mean you are bad. Enhance is not top of the melee pile and suffers drawbacks of both a melee and a ranged. It's burst is significantly lower than elemental but is still considered a burst spec. Ask most non-shamans straight up which dps they'd prefer and they will often say elemental because ranged, that is a huge advantage in itself before any other considerations.

    Next, enhance is something like 11th on raidbots (ofcourse picking a specific fight you can make a gimmick argument, but it goes both ways), whereas elemental is 5th last, also known as 6 spots behind and usually within 5% of enhance. Remember that this goes hand in hand with ranged generally taking less damage on fights since vanilla due to the flexibility of the role.

    I never said elemental was the best at mobility and such, but they are one of the best at that, their aoe is incredibly strong due to it's straight up flexibility to different situations. It can be burst and it can last minutes. It can work on as low as 3 targets. It requires 0 rampup.

    And I'll disregard mentions of mages, what did you expect when playing a shaman? We're never going to be fair competition to a mage as ele. Same with enhance vs warriors (rogues tend to pretty well too). Enhance competes against DK's, ferals, and apparently WW's when they aren't on an FOTM patch, not against the top dogs. Middle of the pack is a fine place to be though.

  10. #30
    What you are claiming doesn't make sense though. There is nothing that says that X class should be best, Y class in the middle and Z class as the worst. The only way this happends depends on how blizzard balances thier own game, It's thier responsibilty to make it fair, but at the same time make it fun. Blizzard has claimed many times that things such as stormlash and hybrid speciallties should not hinder thier dps performance. Pure dps classes gets thier benefits by having 3 specs that they can easly change from, and usually got some niche abilties. Shamans aren't meant to be in the middle, we aren't meant to be at the bottom, we are only meant to be where blizzard place us, but you could argue that Blizzard should strive for fairness, which they doensn't always seem to do.

    Your conclusions are abit off, which i touched on before, but this isn't a thread where you should argument about elemental shammys, and specially not how they compare to enhancement. So im going to leave it for now. Just had to touch on the "X class will and should always be better then Y" derp theory.

  11. #31
    The only 2 issues I see with enhancement at the moment is the ramp up of our aoe which can be fixed with having fire nova spread flame shock and losing maelstrom charges which can be fixed by allowing maelstrom charges to stack up to 10.

  12. #32
    well after playing enh for last 2 yers only thing that make me sick about this spec is searing totem , for me best improvment woud be remove of searing totem and giving some new fix lost of searing flame buff

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
    The only 2 issues I see with enhancement at the moment is the ramp up of our aoe which can be fixed with having fire nova spread flame shock and losing maelstrom charges which can be fixed by allowing maelstrom charges to stack up to 10.
    I would love to be able to MW to stack pass 5. Doesn´t have to be 10 though, could be 8 or even 7. But a change like that might require some mayor tuning and seems to fit into a "next expansion" deal.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaskaleh View Post
    The only 2 issues I see with enhancement at the moment is the ramp up of our aoe which can be fixed with having fire nova spread flame shock and losing maelstrom charges which can be fixed by allowing maelstrom charges to stack up to 10.
    I just need some clarification to how you're wasting MSW stacks. MSW is pretty much our top priority ability (outside of EB or UE_EF and having ST running) so there really shouldn't be any time that you're delaying pushing LB/CL when you have MSWx5. The only time I'll ever delay and hold a MSWx5 is when UE_EF is just coming off CD so I can get the extra bonus to LB on my target.

    As to the other concerns brought up in this thread - in previous expansions people were complaining about Enh not having enough buttons to push, not enough CDs, and now that blizz addressed those issues everyone is up in arms about it? For me, Enh is in a great spot right now, tons of utility, great burst from our plethora of CDs, and our rotation is dynamic enough that I'm not bored spamming 1 button over and over again - and with the changes coming in 5.2 it will get even better. I personally love our AoE, nothing like starting off bottom of the charts on a long aoe pull and then be topping because of EotE procc'ing tons of FNs all over the place. But then again, to each his own, this is why I play Enh, because I enjoy the playstyle, rotation, and spec a lot.

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  15. #35
    Yeah, the hole Slow Agility weapon being a Sword and the Slow Str weapon being an axe makes me mad too.
    Lol, they did that AGAIN?
    Why am I not surprised? Well, I always thought the weapon type balance borked. I dont see a problem not being able to weild swords, as long as other have their restrictions as well, as was the case at the beginning (rogues unable to weild axes). With rogues having gotten axes (something which to the present day fits them less than swords would have for enh), and monks having gotten access to all four weapon types as well though, what was the point in keeping shamans (enh at least) unable to weild swords?
    It's not like there are no swords matching shaman themes well. Plus with transmog, sense of style is all over the place anyways.

    Well, concerning our aoe: I've quit right before firelands, so I never had the chance to experience the "new" one. That said, I know what it's like to play with crappy aoe. The prior version was a nightmare. I personally see it as not per se bad as having a 2-3 step aoe, but being the only class with that is what I think is pissing of most people, and typical shaman-stuff, with shamans being the only class that has to deal with a certain, very annoying drawback no one else has to deal with. In this case it only applies half though, since ele got their aoe looked at nicely.

    Maybe a ~5sec cd frost cleave similar to what someone recently suggested, with the chance of spreading Flame Shock instead of Lava Lash?
    This way we would
    -get a new melee ability
    -get a frost ability for a change
    -get an aoe ability to apply FS, instead of a single target one
    -get more free access to LL
    -get a gap filler for single target dps

    it could have an additional effect for pvp too, at the expense of dmg (increased cast time debuff? increased mana cost debuff? dunno, just messing around )

    As for the rotation: I think the only annoying part would be Elemental Blast, since you have a cooldown ability tied to a ppm, which, as we saw with LvB, is not good design (though LvB also included Flame Shock and messed up the rotation even more). Another point might be the switching values of mastery and haste, since the different end talents benefit these stats differently. There is to say though that the very reason that these stat priorities switch around so easily is that haste rose so much in value, which is a good thing, sooo... cant have everything, and some good things bring bad things with them also.
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  16. #36
    Enhance is in a great spot at the moment, best it's been since I began raiding as the spec at the beginning of Wrath. The glaring issue has been brought up a number of times - being that our AoE is tied to our long CD nuke. That being said, it does fit the model which I remember Blizz talking about with AoE, that they want some sacrifice of single target in order for specs to effectively AoE. Unfortunately we are one of the only spec who really suffer ha.

    No doubt it is a big improvement from the magma totem + FN of wrath, and then the multi-dot + FN of early cata, but having FS spread by Nova would be amazing.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by splinternz View Post
    Enhance is in a great spot at the moment, best it's been since I began raiding as the spec at the beginning of Wrath. The glaring issue has been brought up a number of times - being that our AoE is tied to our long CD nuke. That being said, it does fit the model which I remember Blizz talking about with AoE, that they want some sacrifice of single target in order for specs to effectively AoE. Unfortunately we are one of the only spec who really suffer ha.

    No doubt it is a big improvement from the magma totem + FN of wrath, and then the multi-dot + FN of early cata, but having FS spread by Nova would be amazing.
    Just refreshing flame shocks with fire nova would make me happy....

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Tovart View Post
    A few points I'd like to mention:

    < Our Aoe has debatabley the longest most frustrating ramp up time of any AoE
    Affliction. I've really never got why some people hate Enhancement AoE. I find it fun.

    < Our "Rotation" is plagued by so many parameters that can change due to circumstances it takes months to get good at the class.
    Realistically, every class takes months to get "good" at. Enhancement's not difficult. The priority system is highly inflated by some people. There's usually only ever a couple of things you have to choose betwen. I personally find Enhancement to be the most fun melee spec in the game, with an enjoyable rotation.

    < Rarely do Blizz ever itemize for us ever
    - Itemization issues are much less of an issue than in the past. Enhancement used to be the only mail spec to use Expertise. Now that Hunters need Expertise as well, they're more willing to put expertise on non-set mail pieces. And while Enhancement still likes Mastery, recent changes have made Haste and Crit not nearly as terrible as they used to be. Not to mention that with Reforging, itemization really isn't cause for much worry at all anymore, for anyone. Yes, while some stats will always be better than others, and there's always be that ONE piece of gear that's better than the rest, but come one. Everyone's got that.

    < We lack any kind of direction we are constantly being thrown a band aid then left dead in the water
    What do you define as this "direction" we mysteriously lack? What kind of argument is that to begin with? An arbitrary, undefinable variable. Right. Enhancement's been pretty consistent since wrath with its "direction"

    < We should have been given swords long ago to stop our lack of decent weapons, we cant even get a crafted weapon cause the only agility crafted weapon is a sword or a strength weapon.
    I'd hate wielding swords as my Shaman more than Rogues wielding axes. It simply doesn't make since to me, thematically. But that's a matter of opinion. We have 3 choices of weapons to use. Which is relatively average.


    I want you guys to whine about something that is gonna fix our class as a whole. Maybe one of these days we will get a revamp like Warlocks did this patch or Druids did back in BC cause we sorely need it.

    Revamps are risky, and I'd hate to see Blizzard fuck up my Enhancement. =(

    The only thing I have to complain about is Unleash Elements. Unless you take Unleashed Fury, prioritizing Unleash Elements above all else, The duration of Flame Shock and the cooldown of Unleash Elements theoretically allows for fitting in 2 Unleash Elements for every 1 Flame Shock, while maintaining a 100% uptime of an Unleash Flame buffed Flame Shock. Without Unleash Fury, though, other things prioritize higher than Unleash Elements, which often allows for non-preferable use of Unleash Elements
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Eruionmel View Post
    Here's my problem. You're 7th on the DPS charts and whining about how terrible your rotation. Who the hell cares if you're pulling good numbers? If Ele's rotation were 3x more complicated but I ranked in DPS where you currently do, I wouldn't be complaining. Because I'd actually be a good DPS spec.
    Good DPS should never be validated by terrible rotations. Terrible rotations are miserable for everyone, and being miserable is not the point of the game.

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