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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by tlacoatl View Post
    Just because I dont get it does not make it wrong? No.

    we take moral stands on many issues, we have to decide as a society what is right and what is wrong. In this case the overwhelming majority of Americans support gun control to some extent. So the vocal minority of the NRA needs to bow down to the majority and accept it. Otherwise what the hell kind of "democracy" are you living in?
    That's actually kind of the entire point of this. To focus on enforcing gun control that most people can agree on without going "why do these stupid redneck fuckwits want guns anyway?" The problem is, when you start painting anyone who owns guns as some backwards, inbred fool you suddenly lose the support of even the gun owners that agree with more gun control because you're turning it into us vs. them rather than focusing on the issue itself.

  2. #42
    Brewmaster PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prokne View Post
    Also IDK if you can say owning a modern military style semi-auto rifle is a way of life. Owning guns, yes, but these weapons have only been around in peoples houses for 20 or so years.
    It's been a lot longer than 20 years. The AR-15, for example, was first sold in the civilian market 50 years ago.


    Quote Originally Posted by WarFalcon1 View Post
    Didn't Clinton sign an assault rifle ban into effect during his presidency?
    This also came just after the peak in basically every category of crimes in 1992. There was a lot more public demand for some kind of action. It still barely passed, which is appropriate considering the fact that it didn't really address the real issues.

    In the last twenty years, though, pretty much all types of crime are down 40-60%. So the political climate is somewhat different, or it would be if the various media and the Obama Administration weren't riding the immediate emotional climate for all that it's worth.

  3. #43
    It all boils down to a lack of trust. A lot of gun owners absolutely believe that the endgame of gun control advocates is a complete disarming of the country - a sort of death by inches, with only the rich and powerful able to own weapons.

    Dismiss this as paranoia if you like, but it doesn't change the way people feel. If you really want to effect change, you have to convince these people that you're not planning on completely trampling on their rights, and that these changes will actually have a positive impact.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by tjanson View Post
    It all boils down to a lack of trust. A lot of gun owners absolutely believe that the endgame of gun control advocates is a complete disarming of the country - a sort of death by inches, with only the rich and powerful able to own weapons.

    Dismiss this as paranoia if you like, but it doesn't change the way people feel. If you really want to effect change, you have to convince these people that you're not planning on completely trampling on their rights, and that these changes will actually have a positive impact.
    While not all are for total gun control, plenty are, and as I said they let THOSE voices become dominant in the party during these discussions. When the gun control debate sparks up, Feinstein is there to campaign, while more moderate democrats just don't comment.

  5. #45
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    So, you're a Clinton champion, too? Why am I not surprised. Probably also think he was the first President since Regan to run a surplus... lol

    I think Clinton had one other piece of advice: We need more young talent at these inaugurations.







    Just because he wasn't convicted doesn't mean it didn't happen. They wanted to lynch Herman Cain for the same thing, but Clinton is in the clear for doing it while holding office? Hilarious.
    Oh, so now we're left wondering if it happened or not? We could go down the line of American presidents and wonder if they were banging chicks on the side. How hilarious. Nice logic.
    "1 in 4 Americans are skeptical on climate change...who gives a shit? That doesn't matter. You don't need other people's opinions on a fact. You may as well have a poll asking: Which number is bigger? 5 or 15? Do Owls exist? Are there hats?"

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    While not all are for total gun control, plenty are, and as I said they let THOSE voices become dominant in the party during these discussions. When the gun control debate sparks up, Feinstein is there to campaign, while more moderate democrats just don't comment.
    Yeah... a lot of our political discourse would be a lot more productive if both sides just shut their respective extremists the hell up. Good luck with that, though.

  7. #47
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    I guess I'm one of those people who shows disrespect towards the "gun culture." I'm not sure how a whole culture of gun ownership has developed in this country, but it would be silly to pretend it doesn't exist, or that they aren't hypersensitive about their gun ownership.

    Btw, I'm gonna be shooting clay pigeons with my uncle next weekend, so I'm not totally against guns. I just find the desire to own assault rifles ludicrous.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Prokne View Post
    Also IDK if you can say owning a modern military style semi-auto rifle is a way of life. Owning guns, yes, but these weapons have only been around in peoples houses for 20 or so years. Their way of life would not be affected much by not having them since thee are non-assault style alternatives like semi-autos with built in magazines.
    AR15 was developed in 1959ish, AR10 was before that (same thing, different calibers). AK47 was developed in 47, FAL's also from 47. The "style" of gun was developed from the StG44, though of course there were others before in similar styles. Before the Gun Control Act of 1934, guns of similar capability were out there as machine guns (ala the Tommy Gun of 1927). Not too many folks "trusted" semiauto's as reliable, but the guns all had the same capabilities and uses.

    From my perspective, the "big change" was due to the 80's, when CHEAP guns came out that were basically machineguns that were blocked to not go full auto. The Mac10/ M11's of the day, Uzi's, even early AR15's came with a lot of parts inside that made it easier to convert. Those guns were later blocked by ATF and required to be changed. You can buy a copy of an M11 now, but it's closed bolt and not easy to convert, same with AR15's, AK47's or similar. Yes, it's possible to convert them, but the machines required to do it, you could also just build your own gun with no base gun.

    Either way, this set the image of these guns as machineguns. Then the crime spikes. By the time the assault weapons ban was being voted in, the problem had already been corrected by ATF requiring modifications of the manufacturers in question. The writers of the AWB don't understand guns, and neither do their constituents in a lot of cases, so it was easy to portray the "assault weapons" as machineguns while ignoring the distinctions involved.

    The gun culture has several elements. Some folks want to keep their guns for safety, some are worried about government, some are collectors. Either way, the AR15 is the classical "american gun" at this point. In fact, a gunmaker (Ruger) was in favor of the AWB because he didn't think it would affect his "mini-14 ranch rifle" and people "didn't need more than a 5 round magazine in a rifle", he wanted to aim laws at the AR15 and AK47 that were his competition and were beating his product on the market...

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Seezer View Post
    Oh, so now we're left wondering if it happened or not? We could go down the line of American presidents and wonder if they were banging chicks on the side. How hilarious. Nice logic.


    Except, he lied. That why he was impeached. Just because he wasn't removed from office doesn't prove that he didn't lie. Hilarious that people forget about that little detail.

  10. #50
    Merely a Setback Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Except, he lied. That why he was impeached. Just because he wasn't removed from office doesn't prove that he didn't lie. Hilarious that people forget about that little detail.
    Impeached means he was indicted, not convicted. Hilarious that people often forget about that little detail.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  11. #51
    Scarab Lord GreatOak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    I guess I'm one of those people who shows disrespect towards the "gun culture." I'm not sure how a whole culture of gun ownership has developed in this country, but it would be silly to pretend it doesn't exist, or that they aren't hypersensitive about their gun ownership.

    Btw, I'm gonna be shooting clay pigeons with my uncle next weekend, so I'm not totally against guns. I just find the desire to own assault rifles ludicrous.
    How did Japan get a samurai and sword culture?
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  12. #52
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    How did Japan get a samurai and sword culture?
    A samurai/sword culture had to do both with a responsibility/duty to your lord, and was also a symbol of nobility and family, with swords being passed down for generations. I could understand that in the US for guns that are family heirlooms, but not really for that AR-15 Jimmy bought last week at the gun show (with no background check).
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Impeached means he was indicted, not convicted. Hilarious that people often forget about that little detail.


    Did I say he was convicted? Nope. Thanks for making that typical jump, though.

    He lied, the proof is on video tape. You choosing not to accept it isn't my problem.

  14. #54
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Did I say he was convicted? Nope. Thanks for making that typical jump, though.

    He lied, the proof is on video tape. You choosing not to accept it isn't my problem.
    I don't think there's any question that Bill Clinton committed perjury. Personally, I don't care about him getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. He's not the first President to do that, I'm sure, and he likely won't be the last. But yeah, he shouldn't have lied about it under oath.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    I don't think there's any question that Bill Clinton committed perjury. Personally, I don't care about him getting a blowjob in the Oval Office. He's not the first President to do that, I'm sure, and he likely won't be the last. But yeah, he shouldn't have lied about it under oath.

    Lying about an extramarital affair is grounds to lose security clearance.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by skrump View Post
    The Underlined portion is why gun owners are pissed as it is essentially telling us that the amendment put in place to protect us only offers of the protection of inferior firearms.

    Now I know if I owned a business in a city where mass rioting/looting was occurring I would want that assault rifle.
    If I were to rebel against my Government, I would want that assault rifle.
    If I live in an area where my life is in jeopardy due to gang violence or organized crime, I want an assault rifle.
    If The economy collapses and people try to loot my house, I want an assault rifle.

    On top of that I want the biggest dam ammo clip I can carry.

    And I really want gun manufacturers to start creating guns with an electric safety system that will prevent the gun from firing if certain conditions are not met, Like Fingerprint recognition that allows only the registered owner to fire the weapon (hell even voice recognition would work)

    God forbid it be something as simple as a a 3 digit bush button security code though because hey you might at some point be dumb enough to give that information out or even worse yet write it on the gun so you don't forget yourself.

    Or hell put the 3 button security code on it and just make it law that if your firearm is ever used in a crime that you will be held accountable so that security code should never ever be given out (even your spouse should be using their own firearm)


    In any case we would still need to ban the import/sale of guns that do not meet our required safety standards.

    I mean see I just gave several intellegent options that would reduce gun related crime one hell of a lot more than simply making it illegal to own them
    The problem with the first bolded section is that line of thinking leads to .50 cals and fully auto weapons that are OK under the 2nd amendment, because in order to "protect" from big bad government we need weapons just as big. No way that is viable in this day in age.

    The second part I totally agree with. They are very close or already have systems like this, however they are expensive. I would definitely like these systems to be required.

    I don't think there will ever be a total gun ban, because like many say, we are a gun loving country in general. The issue is lack of regulation and gun technology far outpacing the regulations in place.

  17. #57
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Lying about an extramarital affair is grounds to lose security clearance.
    I didn't disagree with you. I just said that the affair itself is no big deal to me.
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  18. #58
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Heh hehe. I thought it would be something in line of "Don't make the same mistakes I did. Make sure to put a sock on the oval office door".
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  19. #59
    The Lightbringer KingHorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Impeached means he was indicted, not convicted. Hilarious that people often forget about that little detail.
    Are you trying to make the argument that Clinton didn't cheat on his wife with Monica? Or that he didn't lie about it? Because if it's either of those, you're wrong.

    The poster you quoted said that Clinton was impeached. And he was. The articles of impeachment were voted on, and the attempt to remove him from office failed. But he was impeached. So the guy you're being condescending to is actually right.
    I don't argue to be right, I argue to be proven wrong. Because I'm aware that the collective intelligence of the community likely has more to offer to me by enlightening me, than I do to an individual by "winning" an argument with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by belfpala View Post
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    I didn't disagree with you. I just said that the affair itself is no big deal to me.

    Maybe you don't care, but I was pointing out that the government takes it seriously. You can lose your security clearance, and therefore job, for doing exactly what Clinton did. It calls into question your ethics and reliability. Except with Clinton...he's Clinton, so he doesn't even get a slap on the wrist.

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