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  1. #1

    So reading about the whole "seal of Command" thing ...

    So in today's blue notes there were two things that caught my eye:

    Please consider making Divine purpose baseline. Even if it has a lower proc chance it would help sustained damage.
    We heard from a lot of paladins who hated DP. A talent seemed like a good solution. (Source)
    no paladin in their right mind would complain about divine purpose, a free 3 paladin proc come on?
    They did. It wasn't the free power -- it was the unprecitability of the rotation. (Source)
    and

    Hey I was wondering if there was way to look into bringing back Seal of Command as another seal option. Rets want it back.
    What it would do? It's hard enough getting them to use the 3-4 they have. (Source)
    So I was thinking this as a possible solution that I think would work out great all over.

    Divine Purpose is now baseline, change the proc rate to probably 10% or so since everyone will now have it.

    New talent for where DP was - Commanding Wrath, for the duration of Avenging Wrath your Templars Verdict hits all enemies in melee range, your WoG heals all party/raid members within X yards of the primary target and your Divine Storm now heals each party/raid member for 15% of the damage done.

    Numbers probably need tuning and I'm annoyed tying stuff to AW, but I think it might add a bit of fun to the play and encourage the spec-dancing that Blizz seems to be going for in MoP.

  2. #2
    Fluffy Kitten Fhi's Avatar
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    Not sure what GC meant - the old DP was bad because of unpredictability, yes, but Mists' DP is a far better version. It's still RNG, but it only procs off finishers now.
    New talent for where DP was - Commanding Wrath, for the duration of Avenging Wrath your Templars Verdict hits all enemies in melee range, your WoG heals all party/raid members within X yards of the primary target and your Divine Storm now heals each party/raid member for 15% of the damage done.
    Talents need to be useful, or at the very least applicable, to all 3 specs.

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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Talents need to be useful, or at the very least applicable, to all 3 specs.
    I always forget that Prot doesn't have DS. I should probably tank more often.

    So someone else come up with something involving Shield of the Righteous or something. I'm tired. :-)

  4. #4
    for prot it could do something like doubeling the duration of buff time you get from shield of the righteous.
    for holy it could do something like assendance for a shaman where some of you single target get some % split out to other party members aswell.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    I always forget that Prot doesn't have DS. I should probably tank more often.

    So someone else come up with something involving Shield of the Righteous or something. I'm tired. :-)
    Maybe make SotR add an absorb shield on nerby raid members? I honestly dont got a clue, never play prot ^^

    I'd like DP to go baseline aswell, and have it work the same way as now - proccing from finishers, and on a 10-15% chance. Would be realy nice. And I like the idea with the talent that makes us even stronger AoE wise.

  6. #6
    there is a fundamental idea with that change: paladin tier 5 is all about EXTRA HOLY POWER. Holy avenger gives triple HP. avenging wrath gives extra uses of HoW. Divine purpose gives a chance on spending holy power to get 3 extra holy power. if you make DP baseline, you shouldn't give an AoE effect on avenging wrath, because it's not a single target DPS gain, which the other 2 are. so you got a talent that's only usable during AoE fights, and even then only during avenging wrath. noone will take it.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by nzall View Post
    there is a fundamental idea with that change: paladin tier 5 is all about EXTRA HOLY POWER. Holy avenger gives triple HP. avenging wrath gives extra uses of HoW. Divine purpose gives a chance on spending holy power to get 3 extra holy power. if you make DP baseline, you shouldn't give an AoE effect on avenging wrath, because it's not a single target DPS gain, which the other 2 are. so you got a talent that's only usable during AoE fights, and even then only during avenging wrath. noone will take it.
    Kind of like how in teir six you have a single target ability, an AoE ability, and a mixed? I'd take it for some fights. Similar to how I swap ES/LH and glyph of exo for some fights.

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  8. #8
    I was rather fond of Seal of Command during Wrath as prot along with the then Hammer of the Righteous where it targeted three or four mobs equally. Depending on the pack I could pull 10k DPS in ICC.

    But yeah, just leaving DP as-is would probably be the best thing. It lets people choose whether to use it and since they've cleaned up the implementation it's actually fairly decent. The trouble is, Ret is mainly about cooldowns and since DP competes with an extra CD in HA or a better CD with SW, it just doesn't get used aside from certain Holy tactics like EF spam. What would probably be better than adding stuff to DP is lowering the contribution that the other two talents bring since Ret is too focused on CDs.
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  9. #9
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    There's quite a few talents that need reworking for paladins.
    Divine Purpose, RNG is never going to be valuable over something set in stone unless it has a stupidly high uptime (at which point it's nolonger "RNG").
    Hand of Purity, is getting a nice buff in 5.2 somehow doubt it's gonna change much though. If anything it's gonna be alot more attractive for pvp and tanks, maybe healers on some fights.
    Holy Prism, Damage output isn't there, healing output isn't there, CD is too short / too long for it to be involved in any rotation. should have unlimited targets (for both heal and damage) but damage starts spreading out after 10 targets or something. Unless you're forcing yourself to do dailies, level or anything else as a holy paladin there's very little use of this talent.


    Suggestions?

    Divine Purpose, the other two lvl 75 tier talents are burst CDs. What ret paladins atleast have asked for is more sustained dps, making adjustments to Divine Purpose could help that. For instance making any ability that uses 3 holy power (or for every 3 holy power used) you get a stack that upon reaching 3 stacks gives you free 3 holy power off the GCD perhaps.

    *Divine Purpose*
    For every 3 holy power you spend you get a stacking buff (up to 3), upon reaching 3 stacks you can use a Word of Glory, Eternal Flame, Shield of the Righteous, Divine Storm or Templars Verdict for 0 cost and off the global cooldown.



    Would fit all the specs for some increased throughput that can be timed as you need/want it or simply keep it for when you need it (make it 8 seconds duration).
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Suggestions?

    Divine Purpose, the other two lvl 75 tier talents are burst CDs. What ret paladins atleast have asked for is more sustained dps, making adjustments to Divine Purpose could help that. For instance making any ability that uses 3 holy power (or for every 3 holy power used) you get a stack that upon reaching 3 stacks gives you free 3 holy power off the GCD perhaps.

    *Divine Purpose*
    For every 3 holy power you spend you get a stacking buff (up to 3), upon reaching 3 stacks you can use a Word of Glory, Eternal Flame, Shield of the Righteous, Divine Storm or Templars Verdict for 0 cost and off the global cooldown.



    Would fit all the specs for some increased throughput that can be timed as you need/want it or simply keep it for when you need it (make it 8 seconds duration).
    Dude, you should post that on official forums! It would be so good to our sustain!

  11. #11
    You aren't taking all things into account though. Holy Prisim is fairly good for Ret PvP BECAUSE of the short CD, and burst damage. Not to mention the fact that for prot paladins it can hit for absolutely ludicrous numbers, especially on AoE pulls. Although I do agree that DP could use reworking, it actually has seen some use this teir. On Heroic Will, it was the go to choice for Ret, because with Titan Gas up 100% of the time, it resulted in better dps(with reasonably good RNG). As to your suggestion for the DP rework, all I can see there is Ret in arena pooling stacks, and then blowing CDs and hitting 2 huge TVs in a row, decimating an opponent. As fun as that would be, it's not very fair.
    Last edited by Revvo; 2013-01-21 at 11:28 AM.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    On Heroic Will, it was the go to choice for Ret, because with Titan Gas up 100% of the time, it resulted in better dps(with reasonably good RNG).
    [offtopic]
    Please, explain this to me on PM, I'm on my way to my first tries on HWill 10 tonight and would love the advice
    [/offtopic]

    Actually, if Blizz complains that we don't use our seals, they should put them out of the GCD, buff righteousness to 15% Wdmg and make SoI valuable for assit-healing with battle healer by making TV refresh censure on our main target up to a maximum of 8sec. that way we could seal-dance to assist on AOE damage and come back to SoT without too much of a loss.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post

    Actually, if Blizz complains that we don't use our seals, they should put them out of the GCD,
    This I do want to see in the game.

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  14. #14
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    TV doesn't hit nearly enough to "decimate" enemies, with CDs yeah maybe, but if a ret has CDs up the other team has to controll the ret or avoid him/her anyways so chances of actually getting that off in higher rated games is low. Hell, even HoW hits harder than TV and that's ranged!
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    TV doesn't hit nearly enough to "decimate" enemies, with CDs yeah maybe, but if a ret has CDs up the other team has to controll the ret or avoid him/her anyways so chances of actually getting that off in higher rated games is low. Hell, even HoW hits harder than TV and that's ranged!
    Yes, but it only takes ~2-3 seconds to get off those 2 TVs. They can hit pretty hard, especially in 3s, you can blow someone up with CDs and proper CC on off targets. I mean sure, I'd love to see that in the game, but it doesn't seem practical.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    So in today's blue notes there were two things that caught my eye
    Yeah...the whole point of DP is the unpredictability; it kept the rotation from being static.

    So I was thinking this as a possible solution that I think would work out great all over.
    I, for one, do not want SoComm back. As GC states, its difficult enough to get players to use the four that still exist. And of those 4, only 3 have some degree of usefulness. SoR needs to be redesigned or removed.....make it give an absorb shield akin to DSs Prot bonus and you have a tanking Seal.

    DP should be baseline, though I'd add an ICD of some sort rather than lower its chance to proc or reduce its effect.

    EJL

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    Yes, but it only takes ~2-3 seconds to get off those 2 TVs. They can hit pretty hard, especially in 3s, you can blow someone up with CDs and proper CC on off targets. I mean sure, I'd love to see that in the game, but it doesn't seem practical.
    So effectively the same as any other class who uses cooldowns and has enemy support crowd controlled?

    Though yes, you're right, it's unlikely to see it in the game considering blizzard's track record on balancing rets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    I, for one, do not want SoComm back. As GC states, its difficult enough to get players to use the four that still exist. And of those 4, only 3 have some degree of usefulness. SoR needs to be redesigned or removed.....make it give an absorb shield akin to DSs Prot bonus and you have a tanking Seal.

    DP should be baseline, though I'd add an ICD of some sort rather than lower its chance to proc or reduce its effect.

    EJL
    The go-to tanking seal is already in the game: Seal of Insight. But yes, Seal of Righteousness needs some serious retuning. Perhaps in addition to it's damage, causing your Hammer of the Righteous to grant another holy power if it hits x amount of targets/.

  18. #18
    SoTR just needs a flat buff. It isn't worth cleaving with it, because rolling multiple censures will always be more dps as long as the adds last a few seconds. If they want us to use it, it needs to be worth using. It's barely worth wasting the GCD on fights like Heroic Feng. I've actually stopped using it, because multi dotting adds is more damage.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by mmmmmmmBacon View Post
    The go-to tanking seal is already in the game: Seal of Insight. But yes, Seal of Righteousness needs some serious retuning. Perhaps in addition to it's damage, causing your Hammer of the Righteous to grant another holy power if it hits x amount of targets/.
    As it is, SoR simply isn't needed. It would be better to simply remove it if a use can't be found for it. And AOE apparently isn't it. If SoI works as a combo tank/healing Seal....SoR has limited use and needs to go.

    EJL

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    SoTR just needs a flat buff. It isn't worth cleaving with it, because rolling multiple censures will always be more dps as long as the adds last a few seconds. If they want us to use it, it needs to be worth using. It's barely worth wasting the GCD on fights like Heroic Feng. I've actually stopped using it, because multi dotting adds is more damage.
    @Talen
    I mean, it was said wasn't it ?
    If you think that removing SoR instead of buffing is the solution, I don't know where you want our AOE that is laughable atm.
    SoR needs a buff so we can at least try to AOE better. Deleting it is just going to worsen things.

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